Ok, first off I think the TN modifiers for Friends/Opponents in combat is insane. Although it does make sense that a 5 on 1 would result in the 5 winning, it doesn't recognize the inherent skill of the opponents. We have a guy in our group who always rolls a good 45 dice with his sword skill without the use of Combat Pool. With a represented skill of 45 (literally a skill of 12 with +8 Improved skill for a skill of 20 + 2 Weapon Foci and Ambidexterity) against a group of thugs with skills of 4, you'd think there'd be no contest. However, in the current system, he'd BARELY succeed and only if he kept his luck.

Now, this example is EXTREME, after all when do you encounter someone who can roll 45 dice without combat pool in combat? A Master Martial Artist might have a skill of 12 and lack the Foci and Improved skill, but I'd expect them to take down 5 opponents without blinking an eye. That's impossible with this system. So anyhows, I'm curious as to what sort of House Rules people have come up with to make it more sensible. Close Combat is kinda an answer, but that goes the opposite extreme. Now, having 5 people against you doesn't effect you at all. Don't want that either...

I'm thinking a House rule along the lines of, for every X you receive a +1TN (not a -1TN), where X is an Attribute like Quickness/2 or something. Reaction seems a good idea too until you see how high people can get their Reaction to.

Anyhows, thoughts on a possible House Rule?

Sphynx

I agree that the friends/opponents in melee rules are also insane. I've tried a modifier of 1 for every 2 friends (or opponents) before and that worked okay.

I've also tried to only apply the modifier for opponents. That way it becomes a "one sided modification." Meaning: only the people fighting a larger group get a modification to thier target numbre -- the group does not. Therefore, the group's number stays the same to hit and the other's goes up.

Example: Joe Street-Sam is fighting a group of four gangers. This increases his target nubmer by 2 (4 gangers, +1 for every 2). Therefore, his target numbers are 6 (assuming no other modifications). The gang's TN to hit him would remain a 4.

-- Dashifen --

Skill of 12? Rolling 45 dice? Check please!

And I bet you pre-judge him and think he doesn't roleplay at all, limiting himself to roll-playing. Some people, you being an obvious exclusion, can perfectly combine the 2, though I suppose you think it impossible to roleplay a Dragon or an Ie like Harley since they'd have skills and dice pools at those levels.

Sphynx

no. Just when you start rolling that many dice you're dealing in levels like Harelquin and Dunkelzahn, since they had centuries to run up those abilities (A 6 is supposed to be world known expert level) it seems a bit, off.

Actually, a 6 is 'Mastered', 'World Class' is 8+ ( not just 8 ), which implies that although skills above 8 are probable, they're just rare. Considering his is a 'specialization', his actual Edged Weapons is 6, that makes him 'about' a 9, just into being 'World Class'.

Also considering his goal is to be the best of the best, being at the top of the 'World Class' makes sense for a story. and as stated before in other threads, by sticking to Canon, our games end up being a bit more like a 'super hero' game, so a story based with one of (if not the very) best fighters in the world is par for the course. We have a guy with a 12 in a Rifle and Pistol specialization as well. That's what happens when you don't play a Magic user.

Sphynx

PS. That'd be an interesting thread... what does a 200+ karma character have for skills, this guy is barely over 180 karma and has 2 spec's at 12, I imagine any mundane character at 200+ karma would also be 'world class' in an area.

Anyhows, I am sorry for being so aggressive on my last post, shouldn't have flamed you.

Sphynx

actually, 8 is world-renowned level, or at least world-class. this isn't really the place for that discussion, though.

from what i understand, it's extremely difficult to fight multiple opponents, in real life. see, no matter how good you are, your weapon can only be in so many places at once. wired reflexes would help with this, but there are still limits.

I would like to make a point here if I may.

(Outwith the crazy layered armour rule, which I suspect was my fault)

I have a 'core' of three PC's which have played in a 2 year long campaign from the start, one off them has over 400 Karma (Karma pool leess than 20, as is everyones)

And he does NOT have that level of swordsmanship, course he's not far off either!, and he IS a physad!

Point I am making is, High Skill and Role-play are not excusive, I beleive that they add a phenomenal amout to the game!

the point is that most combat arts are focused on fighting against one opponent. if you want to fight more then one you have to split your consentration among them so it will be easyer for each of them to dodge you as they only focus on you while you have to keep the posision and actions of everyone in focus and thereby makeing it harder for you to dodge them...

if your going up against more then one person in melee at regular basis then pick up whirling, any friend in melee modefiers go away and you get +1 to your targetnumber, start kicking ass...

I guarantee that I could take on 4 'basic' people at once no problem. And I'm not evena Black Belt yet, which means I'm maybe at a skill rating of 5 or 6 max. I don't specialize in a multiple-opponent art neither, so let's not mix RL analyzing into it too much.

Even without that knowledge, +2 AND -2 for having a 3 on 1 is insane. Their TN is starting at 2, yours at 6. It's just too much of a difference. I think instead of TN adjusting (which can be far too excessive) maybe the number of dice you can roll should be adjusted. Maybe reduce your 'skill', and thus how much Combat Pool you can add, by 1 for every additional opponent. So, that 3 on 1 suddenly means you're at -2(-4) dice instead of +2TN AND -2TN for them. Minimum of 1 Dice always. That'd be a bit more accurate I think since you in-effect remove 2 dice for every -1 to skill. Then a World Master (skill of 8 ) against a group of 4 Skilled (skill of 4) opponents still stands a chance since the Master gets to roll a skill of 5 (8-3)+CP vs their 4+CP plus he gets any manuevers. That seems about right to me from a numerical point of view (and alot better than just House ruling that anyone can learn Close Combat).

Sphynx

define basic people...

someone without any "formal" training in close combat? i read the brawling skill to be just that, formal training so...

allso, what art are you training in? there are many out there that have sweeping motions without being specific multi opponent...

sure you can jump back and forth but you dont have the time to barrel down on just one person, and run the risk of getting someone behind you and boom, down and out...

but asallways, this is just a gem,and like any other game, dont play it if you dont like it. but personaly i find nothing wrong with the rules, remember hat you can level things of by bringing along friends only complete a fool face of against a group of people on his own (without a very good plan that is)...

5 people can be a lot to keep track of...

Er, IIRC getting +2 AND -2 for 2 opponents was 2nd editioin, that was altered in 3rd so just the outnumbered person gets a penalty, the attackers do not get a bonus... so he would het plus 2 while the attackers still faced a TN of 4.

Also... IRL it's easy to disable more that one person at once but IMHO only if you're willing to do some permanent/semi permanent damage to knees, ect... and then only if the people actually don't have any real fight training. Fight a few people at once that do know their away around a slugging match and you're kind of screwed. People with absolutely no fighting skills will fall for all manner of stupid crap.

That being said, I have my own hand to hand system that uses techniques (And has been used for 2 years longer or so than the CC system =P). One of those techniques is "Engagement" where for each level of engagement you take (Max 4) you get -1 off the TN penalties when fighting multiple opponents. IIRC you need to have a H2H skill of 8 to pick up that 4th level to get no penalties from beating up a bar full of schmucks. Each of those techniques does cost you karma though, all 4 levels of it.

If it's that big a deal to the player (ie, he's running into this often) maybe he should invest in learning a martial art which teaches him how to handle multiple opponents. There are two martial arts which give you both multi-strike and whirling and can apply those manuevers to edged weapons attacks. For 14 karma, you get the skill at 4, and for 4 karma you get whirling applied to edged weapons. Another 16 karma would let you do the same thing to multi-strike.

[edit]I'd also like to see some weapon styles added that can get manuevers, but that's just me.[/edit]

Bit, you're thinking of Reach. 3rd Ed has up to +4 and -4 for multiple opponents at +1 and -1 per oppoent.

Hobbie, a group of 3 Green belts against a single Black Belt Master shouldn't be a problem for any art. Green Belt is about a rating 4, Black Belt Master being an 8. In this system, it's not only a problem, it's impossible. 16 dice, TN 6 is 2 successes on average. 8 dice TN 2 is 4 successes on average. The 3 Green Belts will 1-round the Black Belt WorldClass Master. No matter what art, that's not going to happen, ever.

Sphynx

A "basic" person is Strength 3, Body 3 with no formal combat skills. Any reasonably skilled combatant will eat them alive 3 on 1. The friends in melee rules put the skilled combatant's TN at 6, and the basics' at 2. But the default modifier pushes it right back to 6. The trained combatant rolls, say 5 dice, with the option to use combat pool, and is probably of above average strength.

For purposes of this exercise, we'll assume that neither side has any equipment; add a reach weapon or some impact armor - which the trained combatant is much more likely to have than the untrained - and this turns into an absolute rout. We also assume equivalent reactions, with a slight edge to the trained combatant. We'll give him STR 5 and BOD 4 (skill 5, STR 5, BOD 4 is at the low end for a PC or significant NPC, but we'll go with it, say 6 Combat Pool).

We'll assume average rolls. Trained combatant goes first, walks up to Basic #1 (manuevering to avoid the friends). That puts his TN to 5 for walking. He hits, with 1 net success. Basic #1 throws his BOD (and 3 of his 4 Combat Pool) to get 2 successes and stage the damage down to Light.

Basic #1 retaliates (TN 9 now for the Light stun), but is struck again. Without enough combat pool left to stage down the damage, he takes another Moderate stun.

Basic #2 walks over (TN 8; base 4, default +4, friend in melee -1, walking +1) and attacks, but rolls no successes. Skilled Combatant throws 1 Combat Pool die and hits with his counterattack (TN was 6). Basic #2 rolls his entire combat pool to soak, along with BOD, and takes only a light stun.

Basic #3 walks over, and has TN 7. He gets 1 success on his 3 STR dice. But skilled combatant has been holding back combat pool and throws his remaining 5 dice on this attack. He gets 2 successes (also at TN 7) for 1 net. Basic #3 takes a Moderate stun. End of round 1.

Things are really looking grim for our unskilled goons, aren't they? After the first round of combat, they're all wounded, and none of them have managed to lay a finger on our skilled combatant. It gets worse for them from here out, because the first one to go down drops the friend in melee modifier, and the last two get whooped real good (TN for Skilled Combatant becomes 5, while the TN for the other guys goes to 7+wound modifier).

See, now you're also going to extremes, in the opposite direction. Nobody is debating wether the rules work against completely unskilled opponents who lack any weapons/armours.

You're not going to be 'mob'd by a group of people with no skill at all, those people are running for their lives. So, assume a skill of 3, that's the 'basic' of a 'goon'. Let's assume a skill of 8 for the 'Master' and let's NOT assume a reach weapon. Vs 3 goons

Round one, Master goes first, TN of 6 and 16 dice gets 2 successes.
Round one, Goon1 defends, TN 2 and 6 dice for 4 successes. Master Quaffed.
Round one, Goon1 retaliates, TN 2, and 6 dice for 4 successes vs 2 successes, Master takes Serious - resistance.
Round one, Goon2 attacks, TN 2 and 6 dice for 4 successes vs 2 successes, Master takes Serious - resistance.
Round one, Goon3 attacks, TN 2 and 6 dice for 4 successes vs 2 successes, Master takes Serious - resistance.

Black Belt WorldClass Master beat in 3 seconds by 3 Green Belts.

Sphynx

This is the trouble of this system, without some options to manuever around the black belt will be taken down.

I can't remember if there was anything in the CC Martial Arts but I used to have house rules for Martial Arts which allowed successes to be sacrificed to get special effects rather than stage damage up.

One of those effects was to maneuver your current opponent so that they are between you and any other would-be attacker - thus preventing your opponent's mates from joining the fight and getting the Friends in Melee bonus.

I second Kagetenshi. As long as we seem to be injecting real life anecdotes here, that Black Belt Martial Arts Master might hold off four guys if those four guys were simply drunk/stupid and generally not coordinated. But if they are simply bound and determined to gang rush him the only thing that Master Martial Artist better do is run. Sure, he can punch your lights out or kick for the moon but once things devolve into a wrestling match it's all over for him. If he's lucky he'll be eating through a straw thereafter.

Using Cannon Companion, a martial-artist is well advised to have whirling and/or multi-strike to deal with multiple-opponents. This provides the cinematic ability to "be a hero" while staying within established guidelines for the rules. No need to houserule friends in melee IMO.

Well, I'm a Brown Belt testing for Black (again, didn't get it first try) and I absolutely guarantee that there is no trio of Green Belts that could take me out. And I think I have a skill of about 5 (maybe 6 if I pass this test next month). That's still a good 3 or more ranks away from the Master World Class fighter who should be able to take out 3 Green Belts while sustaining a Serious Injury.

There's not an Art form I know of that, by Black Belt, hasn't taught you how to deal with multiple opponents. This is not how to negate they are there (Close Combat Maneuver, which if someone tried a whirling on me, they'd eat my foot in the process), but how to use an opponent as a weapon and shield. I have a Blue in Tae Kwon Do, a Blue in Judo, Green in Ju-Jitsu, Orange in Kenpo, and Brown in Aikido and with the possible exception of TaeKwonDo have learned how to deal with multiple opponents in each of those courses. (Funny thing being that TaeKwonDo has the Whirling technique... )

I admit my skill-reduction may be just as bad (still analyzing what you said about it, I don't understand how it's worse), but the TN system horrible.

Sphynx

That's actually an interesting idea. You wait until the 2nd successful (still conscious) opponent enters combat? That actually WOULD balance things.

Since Super-Sphynx has 45 dice to throw, dealing with each target when he attacks, it's easy to make sure that he doesn't stay awake for the next opponent to use him as a 'friend in melee'. That'd be a House Interpretation (and thus mine) and not a House Rule, always a better option.

Thanks G2BH.
Sphynx

[Edit]Oh, BTW, Confidence(lack of modesty) IS a factor in the test. [/Edit]

You're welcome - this has helped keep our PC's out of trouble on many occassions.

That being said, I still allow FIM to apply immediately if the attack is made by a coordinated group. i.e. everyone holds action to attack at the same time on one opponent.

Against trained/coordinated opponents the "Whirling" maneuver (or the hundred+ techniques grouped under that CC name) is still a necessary thing for a SR martial artist IMO.

Sphinx... to much roll-playing
Seriously... you're letting the dice take over to much of the combat.

Whirling is worth its weight when fighting multiple opponents (CC p92). This will put everyone on an even kilter. To say a Master Swordman hasn't picked this up is itself insane.

Dodging is still only a target number of 4. Use the Combat Pool to dodge, skill of 12 Dice allows up to 12... Use a couple of them to even it out until they're down.

Karma, Cmon, with a skill that high you have to have some Karma. 1 Karma allows a reroll off any non-successes. 2 sixes outa 16 dice, that is definitely a karma reroll.

Movement, The rules are vary vague in this area. We use the D20 5'rule. Positioning your character so that only 1 can make an effective attack even if it costs you your attack that phase, If you move enough so that only one makes an effective attack you don't need to worry about being nickled and dimed to death.

Aptitude... the best Swordman in the world would have this. Even if he didn't grab it when making his character, a nice GM will work it into the game.

Terrain, doorways & walls inhibit the number of attackers, a stairway or a bar offer better ground advantage (my character personally likes to levitate for better ground).

Switch targets, I found it's more useful to hurt each opponent a little and bring up their TNs than to just out right drop 1 so that there are less targets.

Really, My character was able to beat 4 baddies off that were rolling 6 dice to attack. And my character only has an MA of 5. Off course, he had stepped into a doorway to prevent from being surrounded and by the time the other two made it around he had dropped one and injured the other. By the time the fight was over the entire party (the others just duked it out) were either seriously wounded or unconscious. The GM had to make 4 of the thugs run off (for whatever purpose) because we were getting beaten so bad. My character had suffered no damage...

I think your world class Swordman needs to reevaluate his fighting. To say I'm untouchable because I get to Roll 45 dice which is equivalent to a spinning shield of death able to deflect bullets (I'm not saying he says that, but i can't imagine anyone rolling 45 dice and not be able to defeat 4 lowly guys) and then be disappointed when it doesn't work should reassess his fighting style. Being a master is more than just an accumulated number, it's the ability to manipulate the situation to your advantage. Which is difficult to do because the Melee system in SR is so Vague... so Manipulate it where you can...

45 dice? Time to retire.

See the thread on dual wielding as to why I think this is broken.

We have always played that the modifiers for multiple opponents didn't take effect until they had taken an action on you. As for the people who say that this is too harsh and are debating kung-fu masters on the head of a pin need to consider what SR hand to hand is trying to simulate. It isn't five people displaying skill on a dojo mat, it covers the harsh realities of one guy in a back alley getting the beat down from corporate security with nightsticks, or a street gang assaulting someone with chunks of concrete from the ground, it is fast and brutal and unforgiving.

One of the strengths of the system is that even faced with a min-maxed blender with twin dikoted scimitars six determined people stand a chance. Even the best of the best know when to run, nobody should be without fear in SR.. ever.

Okay, substitute what I said with "My house rules are"... they give a penalty to fighting multiple opponents but do not drop the target number for the attackers. I have always done it this way.

And I feel the rules for whirling and Close Combat suck 31 flavers of ass, Baskin Robbins Style.

if you don't like how it applies a mod to each side, modify the rule.

this is what i did, since i agree that this is a double penalty to a player, at that is no only not fair, but is unprecidented. i mean, if you are going to make a rule that gives someone a penalty and another a bonus at the same time, then why not jsut double the bonus or the penalty. by doing things this way you knid of are doing just that.
but anyhoo, i made it so the penalty only applies one way or the other, choosen by the side that has the bonus.
ie- if one runner is against 3 gangers, then the gangers can take a -3 to hit, or give the runner a +3 to hit.
i know it is pretty basic, and goes against the greatness that is the SR rulebook, but it works.
on a further note, i made a lot of changes to HTH, my players and i are playtesting them, but they seem to be working for us. maybe instead of calling for a change ion the rules (not sure if that is what you were asking for, but it was the impression i got), jsut do what you feel you need to do to make it work.
and have some fun, and btw, how does he get 45 dice? jsut wanting a more detailed expalination there so i can umm, jsut read up on it....not try to keep the info from my players, or notihng...

green beret = career soldier yes? and im not talking some avarage grunt, im thinking some elite combat unit with heavy screening happening. this and the fact that they train to kill or seriusly injure and i would say your black belt is in a shitload of trouble, atleast if he have never used his skills in any other enviroment then the gym. personaly i find the belt system artificial, sure it tells a person that you can go tru the moves but it does not tell you anything about how the person will react when faced by someone willing to kill the person. there isa lot more then skill that makes up a fighter. as for the SR combat system, i find it a nice balance of playability and reality, as allways...

Hobgoblin, you're going into flamewar territory. Suffice it to say that there are some schools in which a black belt will come out relatively weak in combat due to lack of practical training, and others in which they will be more than capable of killing your career soldier.

~J

Which brings me to a point, when picking an art to follow pick one that uses liberal sparring and actual contact fighting, it makes all the difference in the world.

No. Contact fighting yes, sparring no.

~J

thanks for the warning, i dont knowwhat got me so fired up over this thread

Learning how to break people's arms and restrain them using their own body is useful too.

It may be too late for the flamewar warning -- there's already been a post about Sphynx and his fighting ability.

And Kage is right on the money. In my humble opinion.

-Siege

i do think it's kind of silly that facing multiple opponents makes it harder for you to hit them. reducing their penalty to hit you makes perfect sense; it's harder to guard against attacks, but there's no reason i can think of that it'd be harder for you to hit any one of them.

I have no doubt that sphynx or anyone else with the right training could take on 3 or 4 guys. A couple of good sidekicks to knock a couple of them back and stumble a bit will knock that friend modifier right off, IMO. I used to play with a guy pretty knowledgeable in small squad tactics, and when playing a game (SR or 'that other game'), him knowing where to stand, what formation to be in for what surroundings, where to move/stay in combat, made all the difference in battles, and not because it modified any dice rolls, but because we used his knowledge to limit the opponents (less knowledgeable GM) effectiveness as a group.

Three or four guys with no training, yes. Three or four guys with no idea how to attack together would be easier than one of them individually, actually. But three people, attacking in unison, knowing what to do? No. Not unless the skill difference is truly massive.

~J

Well, yea, exactly. After all, if they know how to block/evade/counter those kicks, or know how to react to your formation, or whatever, it won't do you any good.

I'll second Kagetenshi on this. I've been doing SCA heavy combat for years... for those that aren't familiar, this is medieval-style armored combat - full-speed, full-contact, unchoreographed, with rattan weapons, on any scale from single combat to wars with thousands of fighters on each side. I'm fairly good, though not truly great (I don't practice as much as I should). I've been in plenty of melees, and on both ends of the numerical disparity and the skill disparity.

What my experience tells me is that, given a little room to maneuver, one good fighter can take apart four less skilled and uncoordinated fighters attacking him en masse with little to no difficulty. You move around them, disrupt their formation, make them get in each other's way or draw them out of support range of their buddies, and you kill them one at a time when their friends aren't in position to help them.

However, if you take those same four guys and teach them not how to fight, but how to fight as a unit, then they can take on any single fighter without difficulty. They may take casualties - probably will, if the guy's good - but while he's killing one or two of them, the others will take him down. Three is generally sufficient. Two is iffier... a good fighter can frequently hold off two less skilled fighters long enough to get an opening on one of them, thus reducing the problem to a one-on-one that he'll easily win.

Unit discipline is more important than individual skill. This is the lesson of the Roman legion.

As John pointed, so long as the Roman Legions can operate in formation it's a wonderful thing.

When the barbarians lead the legions into heavy woods and thick brush, they couldn't stand shoulder to shoulder and the individual skills of barbarian versus legionnaire tended to carry the day.

The SCA experience would seem to bear that out.

Not a meaningful bit of information, but it helped round out the reference.

Whirling isn't really that broken of a maneuver. Yeah, at first, it does look like you're going from getting beaten to a pulp to invincible, but it doesn't put you on completely even footing with your attackers. For one thing, you still have a +1TN to your rolls, and for another thing, you still still have to divvy up your Combat Pool among all of your attacks and counterattacks, while your opponents can concentrate all of their own Combat Pools to attacking you. If you are fighting opponents of skill roughly similar to yours, you will still get wiped out by multiple opponents. However, you don't get wiped out when it is multiple unskilled opponents.


The thing that really gives me fits is the Reach bonus and the Close Combat maneuver. If you have a Reach bonus, you get it all the time, for every round of combat - no one can negate your reach, even if they are lucky enough to attack and damage you. On the other hand, if you use the Close Combat maneuver, you don't have to make any kind of test to get past someone else's Reach; it's just gone. I don't like the all-or-nothing quality of Reach and Close Combat. I'm not sure how I would fix it, though.


By the way, the thing I like least about the CC unarmed combat rules is that you can't combine martial arts. Never mind that most pro or UFC-style fighters will study a variety of styles to create their own composite fighting styles. The way I would house rule unarmed combat is to keep maneuvers, but go back to a generic Unarmed Combat skill - for every 2 points of skill, you can buy a maneuver. I would also allow maneuvers for armed combat skills, which would not require learning the maneuver in unarmed first.

Why does reach bother you. It's only in effect if someone's reach is greater than the other. If some one does have a longer reach then they should be able to employ it, if the reach is equal than it just cancels out.

Close combat is more for players anyways to negate the nasty reach of those trolls with combat axes. If the GM is throwing out baddies using close combat all the time... well that's just hokey. Of course if your mad at players for doing, just throw out 2 trolls with combat axes... this'll get them back peddlin and reachin for a gun. It also prevents them from using other maneuvers. I really wouldn't want to add another roll in to see if I got it off, but that's just me personally...

In our game, we have modified the rule to allow you to choose whether you use it with the weapon or with a style to represent your practice with the weapon and foregoing the traditional use in the style.

I was thinking. What if instead of having TN mods for multiple opponents, you divided your dice (skill + combat pool) among the opponents as you choose. That way, you could just try to defend yourself reasonably against all of them, or ignore a few weaker fighters to try to take out one strong one right away.

Anyone think that would work?

I think you end up dead faster this way, since you roll less dice in your defence.

And SR melee combat is based on dice contests, so if someone was trying to split dice among numerous opponents, he would get wiped out even if he was attacking.

Besides, they already have this concept partially in place. Combat Pool doesn't refresh until the start of the next round, so the guy fighting multiple opponents does have to allocate Combat Pool dice separately for each exchange. Not even having the skill refresh would just get the guy killed even quicker.