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Shrike30
The nanopaste disguise is one of those nifty little pieces of gear my players are becoming big fans of. You don't use your real face on the run, you don't run into the problem of bumping into someone you've 'met' before later, and make it harder for basic image-recognition scans to cause you problems.

I'm curious, though, if you can see this stuff on astral. My players recently made a run on a corporate party of a couple hundred people, including a few wagemages who would have been on astral at least part of the night. Only now, a week later, did it occur to me to wonder if your aura envelops the nanopaste (making it invisible, essentially, on astral) or if you have big dead zones all over your body where you've applied it.

Essentially, can you see that someone's wearing a nanodisguise if you percieve them on the astral? How about if you Assense them? Why and/or why not?
GrinderTheTroll
Assensing helps recognize the "internal" side of a char. Things like emotional state, essence levels, awakendness, etc. Assensing might get you something like are nervous about their apperance or anxious about something but I wouldn't allow anything specific as "Omg, I hope no one seems through my disguise", that's more like the spell Mind Probe.

Observation on the Astral lets you see living auras while the rest of the world is gray and out-of-focus from how I understand the SR4 description. Illusion spells however become immediately obvious on the Astral unlike a disguise which from my perspective would be "part of the character" just like another piece of gear.
emo samurai
I assumed it would be more like clothing, and finding it out would be more a matter of looking closely and seeing a space between the aura and the face than actually reading the aura.
Moon-Hawk
So then, drop the threshold to detect the disguise by 1 if the viewer can assense?
ronin3338
I agree with Grinder and emo. When looking at someone astrally, you're seeing their living essence (podlings must be very bright)
You wouldn't see heavy make-up, and I don't think you see clothing... I always pictured an astral view of a person as a cross between how the movies show thermographic, and that photography trick that supposedly shows your aura (little static/lightning sparks radiating out from you)
Azralon
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 6 2006, 01:59 PM)
Only now, a week later, did it occur to me to wonder if your aura envelops the nanopaste (making it invisible, essentially, on astral) or if you have big dead zones all over your body where you've applied it.

The same way you can see someone's aura when they're fully clothed and wearing a ski mask & goggles, you can see their aura despite the nanopaste.

And technically the paste (as well as the person's clothes, gear, makeup, and whatnot) isn't actually invisible on the astral. You're at only -2 to all of your physical-world actions (which would include Perception) when assensing. So it's fuzzier in some undefined way, but not truly invisible (that'd be a -6).
Backgammon
A mage that assensed you while you were disguised with nanopaint, and then bumped into you would
a) not recognise you physically (well, you can still roll for that), but
b) would recognise your AURA, since he's seen it before
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 6 2006, 01:59 PM)
Only now, a week later, did it occur to me to wonder if your aura envelops the nanopaste (making it invisible, essentially, on astral) or if you have big dead zones all over your body where you've applied it.

The same way you can see someone's aura when they're fully clothed and wearing a ski mask & goggles, you can see their aura despite the nanopaste.

And technically the paste (as well as the person's clothes, gear, makeup, and whatnot) isn't actually invisible on the astral. You're at only -2 to all of your physical-world actions (which would include Perception) when assensing. So it's fuzzier in some undefined way, but not truly invisible (that'd be a -6).

I liken going astral sort of how Frodo in the newer LOTR movies views the real world and the true forms of the Nazghouls when he uses the ring.
ronin3338
Hmmm, all smeary and stuff... but isn't astral supposed to be brighter than that?

Maybe a cross between Frodo's invisible world and Yellow Submarine? silly.gif
Azralon
It's whatever you want it to look like, man. smile.gif

In fact, it's entirely possible that every individual magician's astral perception is different from anyone else's. Maybe Bob the Hermetic sees glowing purple smoke around magically active people, and maybe Jack the Shaman sees sparkly yellow fairies dancing in their aura.

Each tradition could have approximately the same astral worldview, varying only slightly between individual. Or it's just an extrasensory free-for-all and everyone has their own way of sensing things. Or there's a universal standard. Up to you.
James McMurray
Check out the "Mage Sight" spells in the new World of Darkness for ways psychology could affect the view of the astral world.
Platinum
Cover yourself with FAT bacteria.
Azralon
QUOTE (Platinum)
Cover yourself with FAT bacteria.

I'm waiting for biofiber clothing. It sounds less gooey.

But anyway, people might not be able to recognize your aura, but they sure as hell will notice you. smile.gif
ronin3338
QUOTE (Azralon)
It's whatever you want it to look like, man. smile.gif

In fact, it's entirely possible that every individual magician's astral perception is different from anyone else's. Maybe Bob the Hermetic sees glowing purple smoke around magically active people, and maybe Jack the Shaman sees sparkly yellow fairies dancing in their aura.


Hadn't thought about that... like being in the Matrix. Maybe there's a "world" view that can be overlaid by your "tradition" view.

That's a great idea! notworthy.gif
Waltermandias
I would imagine it works like thus:

Joe Sneaky puts on his fancy nano-paste disguise and gets 1 hojillion successes. He meets Max the Mage. Max fails to notice the disguisee (he only rolls half a hojillion, or a demijillion, successes) but decides to assense Joe. He does and sees that Joe is somewhat cybered, Mundane, and has a cold. Later on Joe Sneaky is out sans disguise and runs into Max again. Max doesn't recognize Joe at all, but decides to assense him. He will recognize the aura and know that this dude and the guy he met last week were the same person and that Joe's appearance has changed somehow between the two meetings.
mfb
a mage who assensed you would be able to see your aura. however, unless he's seen your aura before and remembers what you look like physically, you're not going to set off any alarms. you can't assense someone and tell anything about their physical appearance.
Azralon
QUOTE (Waltermandias @ Apr 6 2006, 05:06 PM)
half a hojillion, or a demijillion

The term "demijillion" is thing of beauty. I'll be using it from here on and thereby contributing to your literary immortality.

And yeah, the scenario you describe is exactly how I see it.
Azralon
QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 6 2006, 05:18 PM)
a mage who assensed you would be able to see your aura. however, unless he's seen your aura before and remembers what you look like physically, you're not going to set off any alarms. you can't assense someone and tell anything about their physical appearance.

You can recognize people by their individual auras. You don't ever have to see them physically to recognize someone by their aura.
mfb
yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. i take the idea of recognizing an aura to mean exactly that--you recognize the aura. that doesn't mean you necessarily remember that the aura belongs to that guy you passed on the street six months ago. nor does it mean you automatically remember what the owner of that aura looks like, physically. it just means you know you've seen the aura before, and you're not going to mistake it for another aura.

hey, i just noticed something. i don't see anything in SR4 that says you can automatically recognize an aura you've seen before. all it says is that you recognize any astral signature you've assensed before. obviously, this means that you'll recognize any mage's aura whose astral signature you've assensed. but as for non-mages, i don't see anything that says you'd automatically recognize them.
Waltermandias
I presumed, and this is just how I run it, that seeing an aura again would be roughly like seeing a person's face again. It's certainly not garunteed that you would remember that face on the second meeting, but people often, even generally do. For instance, if I meet someone at a party, I may or may not recognize that person again if I saw them on the street, but I probably will. Obviously things like changing make-up, clothes, hairstyle, and mood (smiling vs. frowning or blank, etc.) will affect my chances. I figure aura is the same, if I assense an aura, and later assense it again, I figure I will likely recognize it, although things like, mood, health and such may make me not.
Azralon
QUOTE (mfb)
i don't see anything in SR4 that says you can automatically recognize an aura you've seen before.

QUOTE (SR4 Assensing table @ 2 hits)
If you have seen the subject’s aura before, you may recognize it, regardless of physical disguises or alterations.
Ankle Biter
I would like to add something. I have always seen aura sight/assensing as a seperate sense entirely to normal vision, hence the reduced cost of the blind diadvantage for mages in SR3. Much like bats do not actually visually percieve the clicks they make they can still navigate from the echoes, and a dog does not see somebody's smell yet recognoses them from it, a mage is not using their optic nerves to see the auras of other things, they are using a seperate sense entirely, one that is not fooled by nanopaste disguises, and possibly can see that there is some kind of high object resistence techy gunk smeared on their face.

I think that the nearest equivalent to aura sence in the real world is the electrical field sence that certain types of insect have. What you are sensing is the effect of the objects in your range of perception's effect of the flows of mana. That is why things with low interaction with magic are grey and blurry, while things that have high magical potential stick out like a sore thumb. It is really up to the GM to decide the level of resolution of this sense.

Just as a dog and tell if somebody is afraid or angry from their scent while still recognising the individual in question, a mage, I pose, can recognise an aura even with the interference of mental state. *edited out*. Sure you may not remember their name, and personal details, but "hey that's the aura I was slinging spells at last week" would be a fairly easy thing to recall.

Of course this is adjsutable to personal taste if you feel like it, one could say that auras are naturally blurry and affected a lot by background count and so forth, making only easily recognisable aura sections stick out, like cyberware, or high emotions, but are not much different from person to person otherwise. This would be like how it is hard to tell zebras apart without a lot of practice, yet it is still possible to notice with a bit of observation if one is ill or afraid.

A middle road would be use the level of information gained from an assensing test act as a guide, and use the vehicle sense guidelines as an idea for the level of detail you have to work with 1 success would be, using visual identification as a guide to the level of detail, "it was a metahuman", 2 "it was a male elf" 3 "it was a male elf 6'4 dark hair, green eyes, scar on the left cheek, and a slight limp" 4 would be "It was sivertongue woodwalker"

Naturally aura sight would not give this kind of detail, but as there are no real words to describe auras what you would actually be getting with 1 success was that the aura was "plonth" but with 3 successes the aura was "gurdy with hlank undercurrents, spinking at regular intervals but definitley urnth"

I guess I am saying that it is up to you. smokin.gif

Edit - Or you could be boring and read the rule book, like the post above me silly.gif
mfb
QUOTE (SR4 assensing table @ 2 hits)
If you have seen the subject’s aura before, you may recognize it, regardless of physical disguises or alterations.

ah, okay. still, that's assensing. unless you do something to attract the mage's attention, he's not going to see through your disguise automatically.
Shrike30
I think my question was meant to be a little simpler than what it bloomed into.

I've worked under the assumption that while you can see someone's aura just fine on the astral, clothes or not, you can tell things like "is he wearing pants?" for the same reason that blind people can still walk around using Astral Perception... you can see things on the Astral that aren't active/alive, it's just things like actually reading a book that get hard. Some things look odd on the Astral. One of the quirks we've always had in our group (don't know if this is canon or not) is that glass isn't transparent on the Astral (since it's a solid object). Random stuff like that.

The nanopaste, being inorganic and solid, IMO would definitely stand out against a character's aura similar to how clothing might stand out on the astral... you've got something non-organic between you and the perceiver, and while it's not actually thick enough to interfere with things like targeting (your clothes are not "cover" when you're being watched from the Astral), I think you'd be aware of the fact that it's there.
Azralon
QUOTE (Ankle Biter)
I have always seen aura sight/assensing as a seperate sense entirely to normal vision, hence the reduced cost of the blind diadvantage for mages in SR3. Much like bats do not actually visually percieve the clicks they make they can still navigate from the echoes, and a dog does not see somebody's smell yet recognoses them from it, a mage is not using their optic nerves to see the auras of other things, they are using a seperate sense entirely, one that is not fooled by nanopaste disguises, and possibly can see that there is some kind of high object resistence techy gunk smeared on their face.

QUOTE (SR4 p182)
Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive the astral plane and the creatures and auras within. Likewise, deaf magicians can “hear” in astral space.


There I go, reading again. cool.gif
mfb
i dunno. things that exist only on the physical plane are, on the astral, blurred and indistinct. combined with the fact that a nanopaste disguise is going to be buried inside the character's aura, and shaped to look real, i'd say that they wouldn't be immediately noticed from the astral.
emo samurai
Which is why the Disguise skill even exists.
Shrike30
You lost me there, emo.
mfb
this just occured to me: makeup. that's what nanopaste disguises are, basically--makeup. if you'd rule that you can see makeup on the astral, then you can see nanopaste disguises. if not, then you can't. i, personally, don't view makeup as something that would be immediately visible on the astral. if you looked closely (assensing) then you'd be able to notice it; otherwise, it'd pass unnoticed.
Ankle Biter
QUOTE (mfb)
this just occured to me: makeup. that's what nanopaste disguises are, basically--makeup. if you'd rule that you can see makeup on the astral, then you can see nanopaste disguises. if not, then you can't. i, personally, don't view makeup as something that would be immediately visible on the astral. if you looked closely (assensing) then you'd be able to notice it; otherwise, it'd pass unnoticed.

I would say that nanopaste is usually applied a fair whack thicker than makeup for it to be able to make a difference in texture, and overall face structure, like a latex mask does. makeup is a fairly simple manufactured good, and nanopaste is about as complex as it gets, these things have different emotional coonotations and therefore different looks in astral space.

oh, and

"Living things that are not active on the astral plane still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura. Any non-living objects appear as a faded semblence of their physical selves, gray and lifeless, while the auras of living things are vibrant and colorful."

Pg 181-182 SR 4

A thick grey patch superimposed on your aura would stick out a mite, methinks.
Nikoli
But you must also consider that use of makeup has been extended beyon traditional gender concepts of the here and now. Men commonly wear makeup, if only to hide blemishes, and women might not. Though, as Nanopaste, by definition would have a higher object resistence, it might seem fainter and dimmer on the astral plane
Dranem
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 6 2006, 05:18 PM)
a mage who assensed you would be able to see your aura. however, unless he's seen your aura before and remembers what you look like physically, you're not going to set off any alarms. you can't assense someone and tell anything about their physical appearance.

You can recognize people by their individual auras. You don't ever have to see them physically to recognize someone by their aura.

I would only allow that on a high enough Assensing test...
mfb
QUOTE (Ankle Biter)
A thick grey patch superimposed on your aura would stick out a mite, methinks.

that depends on how thick and grey it is. you're assuming a nanopaste disguise is solid nanopaste from the skin all the way out to the surface, which could indeed get pretty thick--but there's no reason for a nanopaste disguise to work like this. if i were designing one, i'd make the disguise create air bubbles instead of actual solid lumps of nanopaste wherever possible; otherwise, you're going to be carrying a hell of a lot of weight around on your face. you're hearing the word "paste" and assuming that nanopaste is a thick sludge you smear thicker than Tammy Fay's makeup. but nanopaste disguises should be very thin, anchored to your face only at key points. moreover, the text says things like "faded semblance" and "blurred features" when it talks about non-living things. at best, i'd say a mage who isn't assensing would notice slight blurs of non-living material on the disguised person's face--much like what you'd get if they were wearing makeup.
Azralon
QUOTE (Dranem)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Apr 6 2006, 05:22 PM)
You can recognize people by their individual auras.  You don't ever have to see them physically to recognize someone by their aura.

I would only allow that on a high enough Assensing test...

Yep, a 2-hit Assensing roll would do it. Just like the table says. smile.gif
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