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ok, so the rules for shooting are pretty straightforward, but do they apply to equally whether you fire two guns at different targets or at the same target?
I would have thought that firing two guns at the same target would have been less difficult than the rules would suggest.

Also, what if you fire the weapon in your right hand for your first simple action, then the weapon in your left hand for your second simple action? which recoil modifiers would you apply?

Are there rules for wielding two weapons in close combat?

James McMurray
They apply for firing at one or two targets. For firing at extra targets you get more penalties (-2 per target after the first IIRC).

Whenever you fire a weapon you take all uncompensated recoil from all other weapons fire that pass, no matter what the source is (gun, other gun, cybergun, etc.)

No rules for dual wielding in melee.
Melee combat is a Complex Action, so you couldn't attack the same target with melee and a firearm in the same turn.
thanks JMcM.

so, if I am holding an Ingram Smartgun in each hand, fire a short burst with my right hand as my first Simple Action, then a short burst with my left hand as my second Simple Action, the recoil is 2 for the first and then 2 for the second, not 2 then 3 as it would be for firing the same gun twice?

Abschalten- I meant holding two melee weapons, such as a Katana and a Survival Knife
I don't see why you would hold a smartgun in each hand, if you only fire the one in your right wink.gif.
James McMurray
Holding a weapon in your off hand has no effect on firing a weapon in the other. The only time it matters is if you fire them both in a pass.
QUOTE (captainwhizz)
fire a short burst with my right hand as my first Simple Action, then a short burst with my right hand as my second Simple Action, the recoil is 2 for the first and then 2 for the second, not 2 then 3 as it would be for firing the same gun twice?

To answer part of the question, when using one ingram smartgun, first burst would have a 0 recoil modifier, the second burst 1 or 0, depending if you use the folding stock.

(somehow i think this is bad english wink.gif ).
The easiest, simplest way to figure recoil in the game is "The first one's free." The first round you fire that isn't compensated doesn't generate any recoil. Every round fired after that does.
So then, does compensation apply once, or per action?
the second burst would have a recoil of 6 - the 3 for compensation for a total recoil of 3
Ie. it only applies once per pass.
Per action.

So, its 2 (-2) for the first simple action, 3 (-2 or -3 with the folding stock) for the second one.
EDIT: what butterblume said.
QUOTE (Butterblume)
I don't see why you would hold a smartgun in each hand, if you only fire the one in your right wink.gif.

yes, sorry, meant right then left.

so, even though I'm firing with two different hands, it counts the same as firing one SMG twice.
Not true. You get the recoil compensation for each gun.

It's really, amazingly simple. Fire the SMG in your left hand, 3 rounds. Two of those rounds are compensated and, like i said, "the first one's free," making that third round (the first uncompensated round you've fired) produce no recoil. Then, fire the SMG in your right hand. The first two rounds are compensated, but the third is not. Since it's not your first uncompensated round of the turn, it is NOT free, and so you're at -1 on that second burst.

Or, let's say you have two uncompensated handguns, and you're firing them both at the same time, twice in one turn (4 shots total). The first shot (being "free") has no penalty, the second shot has a -1 from recoil, the third has a -2, and the fourth has a -3.

Let's say one of those guns you're using is a Hammerli, though... comes with a free point of recoil comp. The first round is at -0, the second is at -0 (because it's "free"), the third is at -1 and the fourth is at -2.

One of the big advantages using a gun in each hand can give you is that you get to apply the recoil comp of each gun. In a bizarre way, using two SMGs alternatingly is more effective in SR than using a single SMG, as long as you've got enough recoil comp on each.
I like how everyone is saying how simple it is, and yet everyone gives a different answer, none of which are the same as the way I interpret it. nyahnyah.gif

Recoil compensation is per phase, not action. Failing all else, if you look at the Wide Bursts example on p. 143, you will see this. The problem is that it should say additional whenever it talks about the second burst in the same phase, and it doesn't... anywhere that I can find, anyway.

The only reference I can find for shooting at multiple targets is the Multiple Targets penalty. Technically, you should receive –2 dice for the second target, even with two weapons. It makes sense as you can only really target one at a time with your eyes anyway, regardless of how ambidextrous you are. If you shot one gun at one target, and the other gun at another target, the second one of both simple actions would be at –2. If you fire both guns at the same target with the first action, and then fired both at a second target for the other action, both of the second shots would be at –2. If you shot both at separate targets (0 and –2), and then switched both of them (just for example’s sake), it should be –2 and then –4.

If you only fire one weapon in each hand once, taking up both Simple Actions, you get the recoil from both guns, and you also get your smartlink or laser sight bonuses. Recoil only affects individual weapons, and not the character (multiple bullets apply for each gun as opposed to just stacking up against the character). As long as you fire both at the same target, you don’t get the –2 modifier. If you fire at two separate targets, however, you still get the –2, even though you still get your smartlink or laser sight bonuses for both.

I can’t find any rules for attacking with a second melee weapon, although I see no reason why it couldn’t be handled the same as attacking with a second firearm. Split the dice pool of the lower skill being used, and handle the attacks separately. Attacking more than one opponent doesn’t modify anything beyond the need to split the pool even more.

Please keep in mind that this is entirely my interpretation, and I am not in any way trying to say that it is canon, or RAW. I am also open to any discussion on what I typed, as I specifically came here looking for rules regarding the use of two melee weapons at one time. smile.gif
QUOTE (CONAN9845 @ Apr 19 2006, 12:35 AM)
I can’t find any rules for attacking with a second melee weapon, although I see no reason why it couldn’t be handled the same as attacking with a second firearm.  Split the dice pool of the lower skill being used, and handle the attacks separately.

There are no current official rules for attacking with a second melee weapon.

Melee combat is one of the most heavily-abstracted elements of SR4, as each (N)PC's attack consists of sequences of varying strikes, traps, counters, and whatnot. The book even mentions that it's not the "I attack, you attack" kind of cycle that the game mechanics imply it is. The net hits generated from a melee attack represent the net outcome of whatever moves you and your opponent(s) have using on each other for that particular initiative pass.

What I'm getting at there is that the abstraction of melee combat unfortunately doesn't support attacking with two weapons, per the RAW. Technically you can be attacking with a pair of brass knuckles or shock gloves and the RAW just gives you a different damage code to modify with your single attack roll (rather than two separate rolls for using two fists at once).

It really breaks down when you're holding, say, a monosword in one hand and a stun baton in another. At that point you definitely can't have just one unified damage code if you're hitting someone with both weapons at once. Obviously you could declare any given attack to be coming from only one or the other weapon, but that sort of defeats the purpose of swinging two weapons at once.

As far as I'm concerned, splitting the dice pool just like in ranged attacks is the most consistent way to handle it. Unfortunately it makes dual-wielding ironically less threatening since your opponent is all the more likely to completely evade your individual attacks. Your overall damage potential per IP is greater, but only if your opponent really sucks or is unconscious or something. frown.gif
The easiest house rule I've seen for this, so far, is to give the character the choice of which weapon he's "leading" with (that is, which damage code he'll be using this time around) and giving him bonus dice equal to his skill (or half his skill, depending on your game) with the "other" weapon.

Not an ideal solution, by any means, but it's quick and it works.
James McMurray
With that system there's rarely a reason to not attack with two weapons, because you get to multiply your skill by one and a half if you have ambidexterity, less if you don't. But unless you've got a 3 or lower melee skill you have no reason not to also swing the pistol in your offhand as a club. If you've got ambidexterity you're always going to benefit from it.
Having done a decent amount of hitting people with various objects between martial arts and swinging foam-padded kite-spar around in a park, I really can't think of any particular combat situation where I'd rather have one one-handed weapon then two one handed weapons. Even a ranged weapon would be useful... I've gotten through a couple of combats at the park by parrying a sword out of the way, then shooting the guy with the hand-bow in my offhand. Not quite what we're talking about (SR's got rules for shooting in melee), but the guy across from you has to react to two dangerous objects in his face, not just one, and protect himself from both... this changes his approach to the combat.

Besides, if you glitch on the attack while you're trying to stun-baton someone when you've got a pistol "clubbing it up" in your off-hand, who knows what the GM is going to come up with for creative results? Hopefully, you didn't *need* that guy alive...
I forget: What was the SR3 solution for dual-wielding? Something like, the attack power of one weapon was amped by half again or some such?
Austere Emancipator
That's for cyberimplant weapons. Two regular melee weapons gives you +50% the skill of the offhand weapons in dice (you need some level of Ambidexterity, I forget how much, to get this without a TN penalty), the damage is dealt as normal for the main weapon.
Ah, I vaguely remember those rules... IIRC, they made it a pretty stiff point investment to make holding a knife in each hand any kind of improvement over just using one.
Austere Emancipator
I remembered wrong after all. If you don't have Ambidexterity-6 or 8 (that's 6 or 8 BPs), you'd have to buy an Off-Hand skill for the weapon in question, or else you'd be defaulting to your Quickness and get that +4 TN mod and the lack of CP for the whole roll.
Yikes... eek.gif I was remembering right...
James McMurray
It looks like a translation of that to SR4 would have you get an offhand skill and take half the dice from it, -2 if you don't have the ambidexterity edge. It could be worth it for someone wanting to max out their melee skills, but wouldn't be soemthing that would flood the world because the alternative is to just be sucky for no reason other than flavor.
Well, flavor, and avoiding the whole "you're carrying *two* stun batons?" thing, and avoiding the whole "you just shot the extractee in the face because you glitched, while using a handgun as an offhand club to get an extra die?" thing...
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