Dumpshock Forums > SS rate of fire question

Findar

Apr 19 2006, 06:48 PM

Does a SS rate of fire weapon require a Ready weapon action before it can be fired? Please give a book reference if you assert the answer is yes. I can't find a rule that says that. Bolt action rifles like the Walther MA-2100 have a SA rate of fire. Pump action shotguns are SA. SS doesn't seem to be caused by needing to "cock" a weapon before you fire it.

Kagetenshi

Apr 19 2006, 06:54 PM

No, no such requirement exists. Well, it does, but only the first time like any other weapon.

~J

mfb

Apr 19 2006, 06:54 PM

in SR3, a SS weapon does not require a Ready Weapon action every time it is fired, if that's what you mean. if it required a Ready Weapon action every time, it would say so on page 114 of SR3, where it describes SS mode. all it says is that SS weapons require a simple action to use, but can only be fired once per phase. the reason most SS weapons are SS is that the original authors had only vague ideas about what guns are and how they work.

Lindt

Apr 19 2006, 06:56 PM

The walther isnt IMO bolt action. Nothing in the text says it is.
And no, you dont need to ready a SS weapon. Infact an advantage it has is it gives you an action to aim for every shot, with no recoil.

Kagetenshi

Apr 19 2006, 07:23 PM

I would hardly describe a loss of versatility as an advantage. Nothing prevents you from using a Take Aim on a shot with a SA/BF weapon, or firing SA only once in a pass.

~J

Raygun

Apr 19 2006, 08:39 PM

QUOTE (Findar @ Apr 19 2006, 06:48 PM)

Does a SS rate of fire weapon require a Ready weapon action before it can be fired? Please give a book reference if you assert the answer is yes. I can't find a rule that says that. Bolt action rifles like the Walther MA-2100 have a SA rate of fire. Pump action shotguns are SA. SS doesn't seem to be caused by needing to "cock" a weapon before you fire it.

Not in canon, but that is the way my rule for SS mode works. SS mode as it exists in canon really doesn't make much sense. Basically it works just like SA mode, only you can't fire twice in a Phase. What reasoning is there behind it? God knows.

In my rules, all manually-operated repeating firearms (pump, lever, bolt actions, etc...) use SS mode, which requires that a Ready Weapon (simple) action be taken to chamber a round before the Simple Action to fire it can be performed. This brings "Single Shot" mode more in line with reality, and keeps things like pump-action shotguns (like the Remington 990) from being classified as semi-automatic (which they obviously are not). It covers all other non-automatic firearms as well, though non-repeaters should take longer to reload. I leave that to GM discretion.

Perhaps you were getting them confused.

QUOTE (Lindt)

The walther isnt IMO bolt action. Nothing in the text says it is.

Yeah. The picture in the Street Samurai Catalog is clearly based on the real-life Walther WA2000, which is a semi-automatic rifle. Incidentally, the idea behind the WA2000 project was to see how accurate a semi-automatic rifle could be made.

Findar

Apr 22 2006, 04:31 PM

Raygun - In your response you say

QUOTE

In my rules, all manually-operated repeating firearms (pump, lever, bolt actions, etc...) use SS mode, which requires that a Ready Weapon (simple) action be taken to chamber a round before the Simple Action to fire it can be performed. This brings "Single Shot" mode more in line with reality, and keeps things like pump-action shotguns (like the Remington 990) from being classified as semi-automatic (which they obviously are not). It covers all other non-automatic firearms as well, though non-repeaters should take longer to reload. I leave that to GM discretion.

Doesn't this give non-automatic firearms the same rate of fire as a bow? How many actions does using a bow in your game take? My GM and I are struggling with SS. so I appreciate your comments.

Raygun

Apr 22 2006, 06:00 PM

You know, the last time someone used a bow in a game I was in, it wasn't in the context of combat. I don't remember the last time, or indeed if ever, I've been in a game where a bow was used in combat.

I'd say that would all depend on how accessible the arrow is. Assuming the quiver is on your back, I'd say it should require two "ready weapon" Simple Actions; one to draw an arrow from the quiver, another to nock it, then a Simple Action to fire it. Though I could understand an argument that the two "ready weapon" actions could be handled as one Complex Action.

Snow_Fox

Apr 22 2006, 07:08 PM

I've said elsewhere-in the proper hands, a bolt action rifle is capable of incrediblely fast and accurate fire.

John Campbell

Apr 22 2006, 07:14 PM

Canonically...
SS weapons need to be drawn with a Ready Weapon Simple Action before they can be used. This requirement can be bypassed with a Quickdraw test. After that, they can be fired - once per pass only - with just a Fire Weapon Simple Action with no further Ready Weapons.

Bows need to be readied with a Ready Weapon Simple Action before they can be used. You cannot Quickdraw a bow. Then, each time they're shot, they need a Ready Weapon Simple Action (or more than one, if it's a crossbow for which you don't meet the Strength minimum) to draw/span the bow and load an arrow/bolt, and a Fire Weapon Simple Action to shoot.

So, by canon, bows take a little longer to get into play, but after that, SS weapons and bows do have the same rate of fire. But with an SS weapon, you can do something else with your other Simple Action each phase, while with a bow they're all tied up with loading.

Realistically...

I'm neither an extremely fast archer nor a particularly slow one. I can typically get off six to eight semi-aimed shots from a longbow in a thirty second timed shoot. Assuming three second turns and that I usually get only one initiative pass per turn, that's roughly... call it a shot every pass and a half. That makes Raygun's one Simple to grab an arrow, one Simple to nock, one Simple to shoot pretty accurate. I think I might allow Quickdrawing arrows, per the usual rules (with failure meaning the arrow's been dropped), to consolidate grab and nock into one Simple Action.

Findar

Apr 22 2006, 07:34 PM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

Canonically...
SS weapons need to be drawn with a Ready Weapon Simple Action before they can be used. This requirement can be bypassed with a Quickdraw test. After that, they can be fired - once per pass only - with just a Fire Weapon Simple Action with no further Ready Weapons.

Bows need to be readied with a Ready Weapon Simple Action before they can be used. You cannot Quickdraw a bow. Then, each time they're shot, they need a Ready Weapon Simple Action (or more than one, if it's a crossbow for which you don't meet the Strength minimum) to draw/span the bow and load an arrow/bolt, and a Fire Weapon Simple Action to shoot.

So, by canon, bows take a little longer to get into play, but after that, SS weapons and bows do have the same rate of fire. But with an SS weapon, you can do something else with your other Simple Action each phase, while with a bow they're all tied up with loading.

Realistically...

I'm neither an extremely fast archer nor a particularly slow one. I can typically get off six to eight semi-aimed shots from a longbow in a thirty second timed shoot. Assuming three second turns and that I usually get only one initiative pass per turn, that's roughly... call it a shot every pass and a half. That makes Raygun's one Simple to grab an arrow, one Simple to nock, one Simple to shoot pretty accurate. I think I might allow Quickdrawing arrows, per the usual rules (with failure meaning the arrow's been dropped), to consolidate grab and nock into one Simple Action.

Thanks. That's what we had come up with. The system seems to allow enough effort from a Ready Weapon action to encompass not only cocking a bolt action rifle but inserting the bullet as well. I thnk Raygun has it right. If you want cocking your bolt action weapon to require a simple action you need to force 2 actions on a bow to balance things out. I shall have to do some research on how fast bolt action rifles can be fired in real life.

Catsnightmare

Apr 22 2006, 08:29 PM

I like your take on that Raygun. But now that raises the question of the new adept power Nimble Fingers in SOTA 2064.
With that in mind would that qualify to allow a gunslingerstyle adept to use a SS weapon twice in a round?

Raygun

Apr 23 2006, 02:23 AM

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

I've said elsewhere-in the proper hands, a bolt action rifle is capable of incrediblely fast and accurate fire.

Yes, but that most definitely comes down to a matter of skill (I thought I had come up with an Edge to cover this, but I'm not finding it now). Skill level being equal, as far as repeating shots is concerned, a semi-automatic rifle is going to be much faster a significantly larger portion of the time. After all, that's what they were designed for.

QUOTE (John Campbell)

I'm neither an extremely fast archer nor a particularly slow one. I can typically get off six to eight semi-aimed shots from a longbow in a thirty second timed shoot. Assuming three second turns and that I usually get only one initiative pass per turn, that's roughly... call it a shot every pass and a half. That makes Raygun's one Simple to grab an arrow, one Simple to nock, one Simple to shoot pretty accurate. I think I might allow Quickdrawing arrows, per the usual rules (with failure meaning the arrow's been dropped), to consolidate grab and nock into one Simple Action.

Seems reasonable to me.

QUOTE (Findar)

I shall have to do some research on how fast bolt action rifles can be fired in real life.

They can be fired very fast indeed. However, in the capacity that they are most commonly used today (particularly long range shooting), the rate of fire is not as important as accuracy.

According to the Wikipedia article on the Lee-Enfield rifle:

QUOTE

the current world record for aimed bolt action fire was set in 1914 by a sergeant in the British Army, named Snoxall, who placed 38 rounds into a 12" target at 300 yards in one minute.

A source wasn't provided for this info, though there are several instances of the same statement all over the internet (which really shouldn't make it any more credible). I would certainly like to know how he pulled off an average of one round every 0.633 seconds, including charging every five or ten rounds (for a total of seven charges). Snoxall was apparently an instructor at the School of Musketry at Hythe. That would certainly have given him a leg up as far as ammunition availability and time to practice the "mad minute" is concerned.

QUOTE (Catsnightmare)

I like your take on that Raygun. But now that raises the question of the new adept power Nimble Fingers in SOTA 2064.
With that in mind would that qualify to allow a gunslingerstyle adept to use a SS weapon twice in a round?

I don't know. What are the rules on the power? I don't have SOTA 2064.

Kanada Ten

Apr 23 2006, 04:31 AM

QUOTE

Nimble Fingers
...allows the adept to perform simple reflex and timing tricks more efficiently and effectively. It grants the adept +1 die for Stealth and Quickness Tests that involve sleight of hand actions. Additionally, Insert Clip, Pick Up/Put Down Object, Remover Clip and Use Simple Object are Free Actions for the adept.

Best combined with Multi-Tasking (2 Free Actions per Phase).

But Quick Draw from MitS is better for bow slinging adepts (SA bows, baby - with Centering and Attunement metamagics, ouch, throw in some strength Boost on a max Str troll, maybe a Laser Sight).

Kagetenshi

Apr 23 2006, 05:15 AM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

I think I might allow Quickdrawing arrows, per the usual rules (with failure meaning the arrow's been dropped)

Why would you have it be a drop? A failure to quickdraw a pistol only means it can't be fired this phase, not that it's fumbled or otherwise expends extra actions. A botch should certainly be a drop or some other similar event, but that's what botches are for.

~J

John Campbell

Apr 23 2006, 03:44 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (John Campbell @ Apr 22 2006, 02:14 PM)

I think I might allow Quickdrawing arrows, per the usual rules (with failure meaning the arrow's been dropped)

Why would you have it be a drop? A failure to quickdraw a pistol only means it can't be fired this phase, not that it's fumbled or otherwise expends extra actions. A botch should certainly be a drop or some other similar event, but that's what botches are for.

Under these rules, you can't normally (without Quickdrawing) shoot an arrow the same pass that you grab the arrow anyway, so if you use the pistol rules unmodified, Quickdrawing is always beneficial. If you succeed, you get to load and shoot as a two Simple Action process. If you fail... well, if you started in your second Simple Action, you get to load and shoot as a two Simple Action process anyway, with exactly no consequences of failure. If you started in your first Simple Action, it takes you three Simple Actions, just like if you hadn't attempted Quickdrawing... but you get to use that middle action for something else. In any case, it's always better than a regular three Simple Action draw, nock, shoot.

This is not the case with pistols. With pistols, not Quickdrawing gives you a two Simple Action draw, shoot. Succeeding at a Quickdraw gives you a one Simple Action draw and shoot. Failing a Quickdraw gives you, at best (Quickdrawing in your second Simple Action), a two Simple Action draw, shoot (which is the same as if you hadn't Quickdrawn, but at least still worse than if you'd succeeded at it), or more usually, a three Simple Action draw, [something else], shoot (which is worse than if you hadn't Quickdrawn).

Under my rules, since I'm not placing any restrictions on what you can do with your next Action, you can attempt another Quickdraw, and not be significantly worse off than if you hadn't attempted it (an arrow lying at your feet where it's easily recoverable isn't significant... it's not like you're going to burn through an entire quiver in a typical Shadowrun combat anyway) unless you fail two in a row. This is not exactly a hardship.

And, IME, dropping the arrow (or at least losing enough control over it that it'd be faster to just let it go completely and grab another one) is the most common way to fail a too-fast nocking attempt. A botch would be something like dumping half the quiver.

mfb

Apr 23 2006, 05:35 PM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

This is not the case with pistols. With pistols, not Quickdrawing gives you a two Simple Action draw, shoot. Succeeding at a Quickdraw gives you a one Simple Action draw and shoot. Failing a Quickdraw gives you, at best (Quickdrawing in your second Simple Action), a two Simple Action draw, shoot (which is the same as if you hadn't Quickdrawn, but at least still worse than if you'd succeeded at it), or more usually, a three Simple Action draw, [something else], shoot (which is worse than if you hadn't Quickdrawn).

what in the world are you talking about, man? if you fail a quickdraw roll on a pistol, all that happens is that you draw the pistol normally (ie, with a simple action). failing the quickdraw test doesn't mean you don't draw the pistol, it just means you don't draw the pistol as fast as you'd have liked.

Kagetenshi

Apr 23 2006, 05:44 PM

It also specifies that you can't actually fire the pistol during that initiative pass, so if it's the first thing you did in that pass you've got another Simple to do something else with.

~J

mfb

Apr 23 2006, 06:05 PM

hm, you're right. missed that. it says phase, though, not pass--technically, you could just delay your other simple action and fire on someone else's phase.

Kagetenshi

Apr 23 2006, 06:34 PM

Yep. Costs you an extra Free Action, but that works. Good to know.

~J

Shadow

Apr 23 2006, 08:16 PM

This is somewhat OT but I had a player bring a character to the table that did 28D with his Ranger Bow. Obviously I said no after I saw it, but it sheds some light on the messed up bow rules in Sr3. I mean a bow that could take out a Panzer...

I do like Rayguns idea, and I think it reflects a level of realism the designers missed.