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PH3NOmenon
How many knowsofts can I load up at once?


all it says in the BBB is that i need a sim module or a datajack. Is this one per active knowsoft?


Activesofts can only reach a combined rating of skillwire rating x 2, with a limit on individual activesoft rating equal to the skillwire rating. Is there such a formula for the knowsofts too?

Anyone that can enlighten me?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (PH3NOmenon)
How many knowsofts can I load up at once?

As many as you have.
Liminaut
Right. Computer memory is functionally infinite.
PH3NOmenon
Cute, all my players are spontaneously becoming fluent in as much as five languages...
Protagonist
QUOTE (PH3NOmenon)
Cute, all my players are spontaneously becoming fluent in as much as five languages...

Since they're pretty much translation programs, it makes sense to me. It is 2070 after all, and language barriers aren't/shouldn't be that much of a hassle.
ronin3338
Well, memory is infinite, but there should be a limit to how many you can access at once...

I don't have a BBB in front of me, but in the absence of RAW I would limit it to Logic, or something like that.
hobgoblin
as long as they can get hold of the language files that is.

but, as the world is now wirelessly allways connected. i would say that you dont have to buy the program, just rent it for as long as needed wink.gif

still, dont try to read poetry while using a linguasoft...
ronin3338
... or pick up a date...
Rotbart van Dainig
Why?

LinguaSofts work as Skills up to 5, which is quite impressive.
ronin3338
I can't speak for hobgoblin, but I was only being partly serious...

... besides, no matter how well you learn a language, you're still not a native speaker, and all it takes is one critical glitch to change:
"Hey babe, let me buy you a drink"
to
"Hey, I'll kill you in your sleep and molest your dog"
Aku
would the system*2 rule come into play here, possibly?
ronin3338
Something like that.. but which system?
PH3NOmenon
I was figuring out something along the lines of SystemxResponsex2 as a cap to how much Rating's worth of knowsofts you can have running at once... ample room to let players speak three languages and know the scores of the past Urban Brawl scores of the past 3 years.

But then, you don't even need a comlink to run a know- or linguasoft, so that kinda chucks that idea out the window.

So apparently your brain handles most of the processing for these softs, and as long as they're available for your brain to access you're free to load up as much you want.


If you were inclined to limit it, the only logical route to take would be to link it to Logic somehow.
hobgoblin
unless im mistaken, there is no skill rating for a native language wink.gif
basicly with a native language you allways get the needed number of hits (unless its some obscure subject you dont have a clue about, but thats more knowledge then language).

but when you start messing with a non-native language there becomes a chance that things go very very bad wink.gif

allso, linguasoft is a program. an advanced program maybe but still a program. i would expect it to have trouble with stuff like sarcasm, slang and other tone, context and other variables have an effect on the interpetation of the word.

like say the word bath. am i talking about a room, or taking a bath? what if the language your translating to have two diffrent words, one for taking a bath and one for the room. now how would the program know what word to use?

allso, the program would most likely have you deliver the words in a very flat tone (as it most likely cant judge the emotions your trying to deliver). thats why i commented that you should not try to read poetry wink.gif
James McMurray
My assumption is that the program is more than just a dictionary it's a full scale translation tool. If they can generate agents capable of piloting drones they can probably generate something capable of more than a lookup table of word meanings. The higher the rating the more dice you'll roll when the GM does decide something is complex or obscure enough to require a roll.
hobgoblin
piloting a drone can be damned simple. just look at the vehicles that navigated on their own using GPS and some other tech in a NASA race not long ago.

but yet we cant build a program thats able to do automatic translation from one language to another without some interesting results. ok, so bablefish is doing good, most of the time, but give it a text, then take the result and run it thru again. results should be entertaining.

and if we have those problems with written language, what then with spoken? i do belive that the UN still use human translators...

still, simpler topics have lesser tresholds, and your aided by AR if available (like say displaying a drawing of a toilet when asking for the toilet).

however, poetry and declerations of feelings are some of the most complex tasks we can use out language for. hell, not everyone get it right as a native speaker. often, its just as much about culture as it is about pure language.
James McMurray
The pilot program for drones does much more than just drive around. It does practically everything that the vehicle could be required to do. I'm leaving that statement openended because I don't have a book handy to come up with some examples of drone behavior that would be fairly complex.

Sure, translation programs aren't very good these days, but the knowsofts are being written in 2070. Presumably they'll be much better after 60 years of development. smile.gif

I think the dynamics of using a program to fight three armed opponents, one of which is a troll using Jujitsu, another a dwarf with a spiked baseball bat, and the last a midget with a monowhip would be more complex than translating conversation, and you can do that with an activesoft.

There will be limits of course. For instance, I would probably start requiring rolls if the conversation is happening in a noisy area or switched to using lots of slang.
ronin3338
Reminds me of a ST:NG episode, where Troi tries to explain to Picard how difficult it is to translate laguages. Her example was harder, becuase she was talking about aline languages with no frame of reference, but it made a good point.

She pointed to her cup of coffee, said a word, and asked Picard what she said. He replied cup, but then realized she could have said drink, hot, beverage, or any number of things.

None of my PCs use linguasofts, but in situations where it matters, you have to take into account not just what's being said, but how it's being said and the context/setting in which you're saying it.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing wtih James, matter of fact I agree on several points. Luckily, language doesn't come into play much in my games biggrin.gif
Big D
Simple? The systems used in the DARPA Grand Challenge were anything but simple.

There was actually a good, if short, Nova documentary on it recently. Stanford (the winning team) skimped on the hardware (they got a fully rigged-out vehicle from the manufacturer) and focused entirely on the software, and came up with some rather impressive image recognition code to support their navigation system.

At any rate, what *should* be the limit to actively running knowsofts is the reader that interfaces the software with the mind. However... "...size and transfer rates are no longer an issue." Which also seems to mean that you can carry around as many activesofts as you want, the only limitation is how many you can have *actively running* in your skillwires, and you can swap any or all of them out with a simple action. I assume that even if you buy your softs as sim chips, you can copy the data (after breaking protection) to your commlink and use it to manage what's running.

Does this mean that if you have the money, you can have rating 5 for every category of knowledge ever recorded by mankind on a soft stashed on your commlink for instant direct mental retrieval? Yes, I think it does. However, given how detailed knowledge categories tend to be, it might cost you a few billion to accumulate all of them, and millions each year just to catch the updates. Addiction (moderate/knowsofts), anyone?

Due to the cheap price of linguasofts, though... other than the edge issue, which shouldn't come up much in normal usage, there isn't much reason for even a face to blow BP/karma on languages, when you can max 2 linguasofts per BP or just buy them during play. At that price, might as well grab every major language, you never know when somebody is going to say something they think you aren't going to understand.

One further thought... how hard is it to make your own knowsoft? Also, is there any real benefit to putting such information on a knowsoft over just having it pop up in your AR display the instant you mentally (trodes/jack) request the data from the commlink? Does having a 3D floorplan of the target "seared, seared!" into your memory give you any boost over just seeing your average CRPG mini-map float over your left eye?
James McMurray
I meant simple in comparison to what a drone's pilot rating allows it to do in 2070 SR.

For stuff like minimaps I wouldn't ever bother with a knowsoft. Those are for things that you don't want to have to spend actions on using the search action to find the data. Knowsofts are IMO basically specialized encyclopedias with speed of thought indexed data. Just getting the data itself would be cheaper, would just require your commlink, but would take time to sort through.
coolgrafix
QUOTE
SR4, pg 321... Linguasoft: Linguasofts replicate language skills, allowing the user to speak a foreign language as fluently as her native language. Linguasofts may also be used as real-time translation programs. Linguasofts must be accessed with a direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack).

People tend to forget, or not realize, that all human behavior is really nothing more than software. In 2070 the technology exists to directly interface with the brain, so what is there in this game to make one doubt Linquasofts would be less than completely natural human language interaction?
Dranem
I typically play it that Softs are chip based. Seeing as the datajack has 2 chip ports, that you slot 2 Softs at a time at most... and frankly - in many situations - why would you need more than one or two at a time?
coolgrafix
QUOTE (Big D)
Also, is there any real benefit to putting such information on a knowsoft over just having it pop up in your AR display the instant you mentally (trodes/jack) request the data from the commlink? Does having a 3D floorplan of the target "seared, seared!" into your memory give you any boost over just seeing your average CRPG mini-map float over your left eye?

It would seem so. Why have to bother consulting a floorplan diagram at all when you already KNOW the floorplan. =)
Glyph
QUOTE (ronin3338)
Well, memory is infinite, but there should be a limit to how many you can access at once...

I don't have a BBB in front of me, but in the absence of RAW I would limit it to Logic, or something like that.

I don't see many situations coming up where you would really need a lot of knowsofts active at once. Maybe one to use a language the character isn't fluent in, and another one to give expertise in whatever is being discussed. I could see the characters switching knowsofts around a lot, though:

"But enough about astronuclear physics! How 'bout them Portland Lords?"

*Pause*

*Upload*

"The Mariners kicked their asses last Tuesday, and you're really bad when the Mariners can beat you!"
Ravor
Well if I remember correctly, the fluff has always stated that Chipped Languages are 'flat' and easily recognized as being such, so using them might affect the runner socially.

Of course, I might merely be transposing 3rd Edition Fluff with 4th Edition Fluff again.
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (Glyph)
QUOTE (ronin3338)
Well, memory is infinite, but there should be a limit to how many you can access at once...

I don't have a BBB in front of me, but in the absence of RAW I would limit it to Logic, or something like that.

I don't see many situations coming up where you would really need a lot of knowsofts active at once. Maybe one to use a language the character isn't fluent in, and another one to give expertise in whatever is being discussed. I could see the characters switching knowsofts around a lot, though:

"But enough about astronuclear physics! How 'bout them Portland Lords?"

*Pause*

*Upload*

"The Mariners kicked their asses last Tuesday, and you're really bad when the Mariners can beat you!"

SEADOGS!!!! SEADOGS!!!!!
hobgoblin
QUOTE (coolgrafix)
QUOTE
SR4, pg 321... Linguasoft: Linguasofts replicate language skills, allowing the user to speak a foreign language as fluently as her native language. Linguasofts may also be used as real-time translation programs. Linguasofts must be accessed with a direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack).

People tend to forget, or not realize, that all human behavior is really nothing more than software. In 2070 the technology exists to directly interface with the brain, so what is there in this game to make one doubt Linquasofts would be less than completely natural human language interaction?

its not so much software as its correct and incorrect trigger patterns for neurons.

still, it may well boil down to the same thing.

thing is tho, that a human can at will adapt his thinking to a new situation. thats why a chipped skill cant use edge, edge is a indication of ones ability to think creatively on the spot (so in theory, macgyver would be a human with maxed edge).

therefor a chipped language may be linguisticaly perfect, but will be totaly dry. any kind of creative use of a language will basicly not work...
coolgrafix
I don't buy that, though. The creative center of the brain is divorced from the part that stores language. The creativity doesn't happen in the Linguasoft, so there's no reason to assume no creative use of languages acquired through them. Thus, plug in a Linguasoft and wax poetic at will in your new language. =)
hobgoblin
another angle then, how much of the brain is overridden. does the linguasoft just grant the skill, or does it directly work the throat and mouth based on the words a user wants to speak...

basicly im starting to think that allowing linguasoft under the same rules as knowsofts makes the linugasofts way to powerfull in their aplication. the knowsofts are more like a schoolbook or similar that you can search at will. language is so much more...
coolgrafix
The key here, I think, is in reconciling the fact that the brain's API is known in the year 2070. To my mind, there would be little, if any, physical difference between Linguasofts and Knowsofts. Neither requires skill wires. Each is, for all intents and purposes, tacking on an additional portion of the brain with new information; the new portion/info interfaces with the rest of the brain just like previously existing portions of the real brain, providing the brain's higher functions (creativity, etc.) will all the tools as if they were real.
Big D
It's ASSIST. Same interface used in everything else that talks to your brain.
coolgrafix
Just to clarify, ASIST involves artificial sensory induction, which is not involved with Knowsofts or Linguasofts. It still uses the brain's API, though.
Geekkake
QUOTE (coolgrafix)
Just to clarify, ASIST involves artificial sensory induction, which is not involved with Knowsofts or Linguasofts. It still uses the brain's API, though.

Don't Knowsofts and Linguasofts require a sim module to function? That may involve some level of ASIST functionality, or the requisite would be pointless.
coolgrafix
Skillsofts do not require a sim module. Activesofts require skillwires, Knowsofts and Lingquasofts only require a DNI, which is the API mentioned above. None of these technologies use ASIST. ASIST is only for VR applications.

As an aside, ASIST is only mentioned a couple of times in fourth addition at all. Do a search on the PDF for ASIST and you'll see what I mean. Twice in the history, once in the Jargon dictionary, once under the description of Sim Module, and once in the index.
TBRMInsanity
You can still see a Activesoft through a commlink without a sim module but you would not be able to feel the active soft. This means magically active characters that shun technology can still see what it looks like to say fire a gun but wouldn't know how it feels like to fire a gun.
hobgoblin
ASIST was the old VR protocol, and is most likely still used when going full VR.

im guessing that AR however uses a kind of simsense with feedback posibility. hmm, i kinda recall those simsense "movies" having a kind of limited interaction ability, diffrent plots based on choices made by the "viewer".

activesoft is a full overide via the skillwires. basicly it reads inputs via your senses and sends outputs via the skillwires. so in many ways a activesoft is similar to a drones autosoft (scary thought in a way).

but given that knowsofts and linguasofts only need DNI one can start to wonder how they work. are they just books that you can access mentaly, or are they something more?

knowsofts are easy to be seen as a kind of book. the problem is linguasoft, given that it gives you a kind of active skill, even tho its just for verbal interaction with the world.

edit:

ugh! i just read the text covering linguasofts in the equipment list, and it looks like a rating 5 linguasoft would more or less be equal to a native language skill. looks like all the problems attributed to linguasofts are now gone. remind me to get a subscription for the worlds languages to my comlink...
coolgrafix
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
but given that knowsofts and linguasofts only need DNI one can start to wonder how they work. are they just books that you can access mentaly, or are they something more?

knowsofts are easy to be seen as a kind of book. the problem is linguasoft, given that it gives you a kind of active skill, even tho its just for verbal interaction with the world.

I thought I did a good job of explaining this here...
QUOTE
The key here, I think, is in reconciling the fact that the brain's API is known in the year 2070. To my mind, there would be little, if any, physical difference between Linguasofts and Knowsofts. Neither requires skill wires. Each is, for all intents and purposes, tacking on an additional portion of the brain with new information; the new portion/info interfaces with the rest of the brain just like previously existing portions of the real brain, providing the brain's higher functions (creativity, etc.) will all the tools as if they were real.
hobgoblin
check my edit...

looks like another thing changed between versions. its not the major changes that gets me, its all those small ones...
coolgrafix
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
ASIST was the old VR protocol, and is most likely still used when going full VR.

It's the new VR protocol, also, it's just that the new edition doesn't bother to really talk much about it.
hobgoblin
so AR is basicly ASIST, but modified?
coolgrafix
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
so AR is basicly ASIST, but modified?

The easiest and most common way to experience AR is through a simrig using ASIST. However, SR4 goes to lengths to convey that a simrig is not required for the basic AR experience (a visual overlay of AROs).
hobgoblin
ugh, i have a feeling that whoever is writing the unwired book have a real job to do...
Dranem
According to the book, you don't need simsense to see AR. All you need is a display device or image link. AR is a 3D computer interface, much like your desktop is today, only more advanced.
Interacting with the AR world can be done through voice command, AR gloves, a rollout keyboard or thought - for those lucky enough to have a datajack or simsense net. (ware, trodes, paste, etc)
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (Big D)
Simple? The systems used in the DARPA Grand Challenge were anything but simple.

The DARPA Grand Challenge is more about SR Pilot Programs than Knowsofts or Skillsofts.

The part of the challenge most relevant to Shadowrun is that in 2004, the best system only completed seven miles of the course; in 2005, the top five systems all completed the 132 miles. Makes me wonder how good these Pilots could be by 2070.

The same question applies to activesofts, autosofts, knowsofts, linguasofts (, programs, hacker tools, IC, etc). How good will these be by 2070?
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (coolgrafix)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 23 2006, 04:04 PM)
ASIST was the old VR protocol, and is most likely still used when going full VR.

It's the new VR protocol, also, it's just that the new edition doesn't bother to really talk much about it.

Augmented Reality is NOT Virtual Reality. Visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_reality and follow the links to learn about AR in RL.

You can also try googling "Augmented reality RFID". Don't soil your pants.

How good will AR be by 2070?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (coolgrafix)
Skillsofts do not require a sim module. Activesofts require skillwires, Knowsofts and Lingquasofts only require a DNI, which is the API mentioned above.

Know/LinguaSofts specifically require either a Sim Module or a Datajack.

QUOTE (coolgrafix)
None of these technologies use ASIST. ASIST is only for VR applications.

Everything of those is based on ASIST - especially cyberware. indifferent.gif
Edward
I would impose a similar penalty to what was in SR3. -2 dice on social tests made when using a linguasoft.

You can have as many as you want, even if they need to be put in threw a chip jack (why) you can store any number on a chip.

It dose say the GM may declare that a devices memory is full if truly ridicules amounts of data are involved. I would say a standard chip can hold 100 rating points of know soft per point of device rating, just to put some limit on it,

Edward
coolgrafix
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
QUOTE (coolgrafix)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 23 2006, 04:04 PM)
ASIST was the old VR protocol, and is most likely still used when going full VR.

It's the new VR protocol, also, it's just that the new edition doesn't bother to really talk much about it.

Augmented Reality is NOT Virtual Reality.

Not sure if you were addressing me specifically but just to be clear, I was not stating that AR is VR. =)
coolgrafix
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 24 2006, 06:37 AM)
QUOTE (coolgrafix)
Skillsofts do not require a sim module. Activesofts require skillwires, Knowsofts and Lingquasofts only require a DNI, which is the API mentioned above.

Know/LinguaSofts specifically require either a Sim Module or a Datajack.

QUOTE (coolgrafix)
None of these technologies use ASIST. ASIST is only for VR applications.

Everything of those is based on ASIST - especially cyberware. indifferent.gif

ASIST is a technology whose only application is the induction of fake sensory information into the brain... making you see/feel/hear/taste/smell something that isn't really there in the real world. This is wholly and completely divorced from cyberware as a technology. In fact, cyberware isn't even required to experience ASIST-based experiences; and ASIST is not used in ANY cyberware other than sim modules (e.g. smartlink technology does not use ASIST even though it feeds a weapon's camera feed to the user's visual overlay).

Regarding the requirement of a simrig or datajack, the exact wording is:
QUOTE
Activesofts must be accessed with a skillwire system (p. 335); the rating of the activesoft is limited by the skillwire systemís rating.
...
Knowsofts must be accessed with a direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack).
...
Linguasofts must be accessed with a direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack).

The parentheticals are a well-intentioned, though incomplete, list of avenues to a DNI. For example, a cranial commlink also provides a DNI and can store and execute purchased skillsofts.
hobgoblin
or in other words, ASIST is the prosess of using simsense as a interface to computers. this is done by interpeting normal actions like picking up a virtual object and putting it into a virtual pocket as a computer command to downloading a file.

simsense again builds on top of the DNI tech of cyberware.
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