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Thanee
A bit confused about surprise... is this right?

For example, a thug sneaks up on a group of three street samurais, they don't notice him. Then he comes out of hiding to shoot one of the three. They all beat the enforcer (3 hits) easily with their huge initiative scores (all three have 4+ hits) and draw their weapons to gun him down even before he can pull the trigger once (in fact he couldn't even act against *any* of the three during the first IP, even if he survives their attacks).

Is that how it is supposed to be, or did I miss anything there?

Bye
Thanee
Ophis
Yeah that soundsa about right to me, just remember that if you are aware of the enemy you can't be surprised(which kinda ruins your example which works for standard surprise) and get +6 to your initiative for the surprise test which should even the odds some, if not let the thug win.
Butterblume
Ophis beat me wink.gif. I was writing basically the same.
mintcar
This is what you need to think about:

Infiltration roll for thug and perception roll for samurai. You seem to have done that and the thug was unnoticed.

Surprise initiative. Thug gets 6 bonus dice for his ambush. It is off course possible that all three samurai beat the thug with one net hit despite the bonus.

The thug knows when and were he will come upon the samurai, so he can't be surprised. Here's were you're wrong. If he had been waiting on them to walk through a door without knowing when they would come, he would get the bonus but still run the risk of being surprised, but as he is sneaking up on them he can't be surprised.

....

The result here is that the thug successfully sneaks up on the samurai, but when he reveals himself to make the shot, the samurai are quick enough to draw their guns and shoot him down before he pulls the trigger. But he may still fire if he survives their attacks, because he is not surprised.
Austere Emancipator
If the samurai haven't noticed the thug, then they cannot react to the thug. If the thug somehow compromises his position before firing, then sure, allow all the rolls and (if necessary) give the sammies another attempt to notice the thug if they manage to act before him. But if the thug doesn't do anything that would reveal the ambush to the sammies, then there's nothing for them to react to before one of them gets a brand new orifice.
Nikoli
Also, this may qualify for use of "group" edge and he could activate dead man's trigger to at least shot at one of them
mintcar
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Apr 23 2006, 08:16 AM)
If the samurai haven't noticed the thug, then they cannot react to the thug. If the thug somehow compromises his position before firing, then sure, allow all the rolls and (if necessary) give the sammies another attempt to notice the thug if they manage to act before him. But if the thug doesn't do anything that would reveal the ambush to the sammies, then there's nothing for them to react to before one of them gets a brand new orifice.

That may be your ruling, but it's not the RAW. If the thug would do something to reveal himself, the result would be the sammies getting a +3 bonus that's all.

It's unlikely for the sammies to beat the thug with the +6 bonus. That's a big damn bonus. I do agree, however, that it may be a good time for a GM's call if the thug sneaks up on them from behind to simply give the thug a shot before surprise is even rolled.
Austere Emancipator
So the rules really do not have any exception for when Mr Samurai is walking in the middle of the road and someone snipes him from a mile away? That's just fucking brilliant.

Anyhow, entering combat doesn't make you omniscient, does it? They could take actions to observe their surroundings when they suddenly find themselves in combat mode in the middle of nowhere, or they could dive for cover when they realize something's forced them to make a surprise roll, but they still cannot shoot a person they can't see.
mintcar
Well, no. But I edited in that I do think situations like that warrant a shot before surprise is rolled. After the first shot, there's still a chance that the victim is surprised. However, if there's any doubt as to the victim's complete unawareness or if the situation is the least bit chaotic and in close quarters, I would allow a surprise test with the written modifiers.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (mintcar)
But I edited in that I do think situations like that warrant a shot before surprise is rolled.

I agree, that's a very good way of handling situations like that.

[Edit]Yay, I'm finally Great![/Edit]
Jhaiisiin
The way I interpreted it was this. If someone jumps out and gets ready to shoot you, you're surprised because there's this fragger tryin' to off you out of the blue. If you're quick enough, you can get a shot off before he lays waste to you.

However. If you're getting sniped from hundreds of meters away, you have nothing to react to. Nothing to key off of. Thus, you're not surprised. At least not until the slug rams into your chest. If the RAW don't allow for attacks on a target who is completely unaware and has no way of knowing an attack is in progress, then I'd house rule it. It just doesn't make sense to give someone a chance to dodge because of some nifty spider-sense when they're bein' offed by a sniper.
Thanee
Yeah, that's what I'm a bit confused about mostly. In the rules it does say, that you use the same surprise tests for everyone, regardless whether only one side is surprised or both.

But I see it now, missed the part, where it said, that an ambusher is automatically not surprised. smile.gif

When I understand it right, the thug (it's just a completely made-up example, btw) will roll a surprise test (at +6; the +3 for being alerted do not count here also, I suppose) to set a threshold for the sammies, but he won't need to beat them in order to act against them in the first IP, because he knows they are there (he was sneaking up on them successfully after all), right?

Then everyone rolls initiative and if one of the sammies manages to beat the thug on surprise *and* initiative, he would then have to make another perception roll to spot the thug and be able to shoot him (if that fails, he will auto-delay after the thug and act then).

Ok, makes a lot more sense now. Thanks! smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
mintcar
That's one way of doing it that seems to work well. Though it does sort of imply that they know something's up and look for the source.

I would really like to roll for surprise when people run the risk of being surprised, not before they are even aware of any danger. I will propably go by RAW in most cases, but if there's no question at all about the victim's complete unawareness; I will let the ambusher's roll first and let the highest initiative take one pass before the vicim's roll. When the first shot goes off, that's when the victims roll for surprise. And if they are not surprised and able to attack, they may still need to roll a perception test to know were the shooter's are located.

That way very quick character's may be able to take cover or return fire right after the first shot has gone off, before the rest of the ambush even if it's an entire army. But surprise tests are not sixth sense tests. (Maybe the Combat Sense ability sort of implies it is though...)
Abschalten
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Apr 23 2006, 08:44 AM)
It just doesn't make sense to give someone a chance to dodge because of some nifty spider-sense when they're bein' offed by a sniper.

If it were an adept with Combat Sense (read the description of it, focusing on the in character effects rather than the game mechanics) I would allow a surprise roll for that. With adepts with both Combat Sense *AND* Sixth Sense in SR3 I was very amenable to doing this, as the IC descriptions of their powers definitely gave them said "spider-sense."
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