My players enjoy gambling every once in a while and I'd like to think up a quick and easy way to handle it. Using a gambling knowledge skill.
Any suggestions?

Good question, I just recently created a character that enjoyed Gambling, and the GM never really gave me a shot to use the skill. But now that you mention it, how would you use it? My guess is it would be treated like a negotiation test between everyone's Gambling Knowledge, which I preceive includes the ability to bluff, fold, raise, check, etc etc. Anybody know how it really works?

An opposed test sounds good. I'd make it an active skill, though, since it's al about reading people and controlling your body language (just like negociation is an active skill, not a knowledge skill).

To be successful in gambling also requires a lot of willpower and self-control, so I would consider it an active skill based on Willpower. When playing against a machine or fixed-odds game (like roulette) you could simply assign a TN to win, with more successes == more return on your money, as an abstraction of your performance over an hour of time for exampe. When playing against other people (ie. poker) you could make it an open test, highest-number-takes-all, for each hand, or you could abstract performance similar to the above, except that the money on the table gets divided proportional to the successes each player has.

--K

That's true, but I only mentioned it as a knowledge skill since that is how it is preceived as of now. But an active skill then perhaps if you are truely going to be a gambler? I don't know.

Simple:

If they're playing Poker I let them use an opposed Gambling: Poker test using Charisma or Intelligence (far more often) as the testing stat.

If they're playing Blackjack I ask them how much money they're taking to the Casino. I give them a 30% chance of coming home with more depending on a successful Gambling: Blackjack test. Prize amounts vary depending on successes.

If they decide to play virtually anything else, I give them a 15% chance of making some money.


- Really, only Poker is viable for making money everytime you sit down at a table to play some cards. Only then if you're very skilled compared to those that you are playing against.

- Blackjack it is also possible to make money but it's much more random and negative modifiers should be given if the character sits at a table with other inexperienced BJ players. This is because inexperienced BJ players are likely to do stupid things that will inevitably screw up your own ability to play cards properly. ( Such as hitting on a 16 and sucking up your face card ... yadda yadda)

- Slots and many other games are actually set at a 75-90% payout typically about 85% I believe. However, most people tend to play slots till one of two things happens:

A) They run outta money. In this case they either put more money into the machine, move to a new machine, or leave if they are completely out of money.
or
B) They manage to get lucky and hit a couple medium payouts or even better a large payout. At this point they will generally cash the machine out.

Note however that it is entirely possible to do both A and B several times in one night, especially A) and thus come home with no money.


To Recap:

Poker: Straight Opposed Testing. Might have to do multiple tests and some math to figure out how it ends up. Remember the house (if playing at a gambling establishment wether legal or OC) will take a percentage of the table all night.

BlackJack: 30% base chance to win anything. Modify by 5% for every gambling test. Can also use successes to increase winnings multiplier (start at 1.5x and move up by 0.25 for each success). TN 4. Every 1 rolled removes a success.

Slots: Base 15% chance to win anything. Modify by 5% for every success on the gambling test. May use perception as a secondary test to help out. May also use successes to increase winnings multiplier. (Start at 2.5x and move up 0.5 for each success). TN 4. Every 1 rolled removes a success.


As far as losing goes. Just take the base amount of money and multiply it by anywhere from 0.00 to 0.75. The closer to hitting the winning TN's the better the multiplier. Keep in mind however that many people who goto Casino's and start losing play till absolute Rockbottom.

I've played a lot of blackjack over the past three years I've been gambling and I've NEVER understood why people throw a fit over hitting at the "wrong spots". The deck is totally randomized (between 6 and 8 decks where I play shuffled when there's about a hundred cards left), so whether I hit or not means nothing more or less than if someone else folds or calls in poker. I'm not playing "wrong", I'm playing how I play. If you don't like it, but your money in a slot machine where the payouts are based on a percentage. It's the same thing when everyone plays "right" anyway.

Personally, I add in a couple of new skills and specializations. There's Stealth (Slight of Hand) which is used for cheating, pick-pocketting, etc. BTW, there are usually a LOT of people watching in a major casino, which makes getting away with cheating without getting spotted damn hard. Then there's Gambling, which is an Intelligence-based skill broken into specializations of Sports, Cards, Dice, Mechanical, Computer, and Chance. I also happen to have reference books with the house odds on every game in most casinos, so I just use those, have the players roll against a target number based on whatever I feel like, and just adjust based on how much cred they're betting and how long they're playing.

The Abstruse One

The house advantage on Blackjack if you're playing based on those little cards that tell you when to hit and stand is about 1.9% That means that for every $100.00 you play, you're going to lose $1.90 on average.

The best game in the house is craps based on a pure statistical standpoint. Betting on the line with odds or on the don't pass bar with odds will give you a house advantage of about 0.54% or so, which means for every $100.00 you play, you'll lose $.54 on average.

It's still all luck, but playing smart can increase your odds of going home with more than you walked in with. However, there's no such thing as a non-profit casino, and the house always wins in the end.

Take it from someone who's managed to gamble on blackjack, craps, and mini-baccurat once a week for three years and is only down overall for the entire time $20.

The Abstruse One

Not to pick sides are point fingers are who's wrong and who's not, but Blackjack IS considered to be the best way to make money in a Las Vegas casino. Notice I said Las Vegas. Although it would apply to just about any other casino, it DOES have the highest odds of winning versus ANY other game. And if you try to argue with me, trust me you're wrong. I've played for BIG money, and LITTLE money. I know Blackjack dealers, and I've watched enough shows on Gambling and videos on Gambling that I know what I'm talking about. Not to mention that if you just think about the game and when to hit and not to hit, which is based off the dealers card, it is very easy to win big pots consistantly. For example, I've actually been kicked out of Caesers Palace for winning to much money at a Blackjack table, that they thought I was cheating. They switced 3 different dealers at the table, and I still won big pots consistantly. It is about the easiest game to play that's ever been created.

An old saying goes "It takes a minute to learn Blackjack, and a year to master it."

The fact that an especially skilled player can win consistantly at blackjack doesn't change the math. And the math says "if you always bet with the odds, craps is the best game in town".
Betting, taking into account the other cards you've seen on the table changes that, of course, but it still takes considerable skill and talent to win consistantly at blackjack.

My players rarely gamble, so I was thinking of something simple that would work for any house game they play. Against another character it would be opposed.
The TN would be based on the pay out they were going for. Such as:
TN = 5 for a 10% profit (this represents playing it safe.)
TN = 6 for a 15% profit.
TN = 7 for a 20% profit.
TN = 8 for a 25% profit.
Modifiers would be based on conditions, such as:
+1 to +4 crooked dealer/ machine
-1 novice dealer
+1 environmental conditions (cigar smoke, heavy drinking by player, women on each arm).

Something like this would be nice, I think. Although it may need some fine tuning, as it's midnight and I am oh, so tired.

I'm not sure why no one's mentioned this, but it is substantially more immersive just to have the player play the game and the GM fix the odds on the fly per some behind-the-scenes skill checks. Depending on the type of game you're playing, this could be a much more enjoyable way of handling it.

And instead of making tests to see if the sharpshooter can hit the target, let's take them outside with a glock and shoot a soda cans. If the player can hit it, the character should too. Right?

The way I look at it, if you want to play cards, get a poker game together. If you want to play an RPG, play an RPG.

TN: 4 Roll gambling skill. No sucesses = loses the farm. 1 success = leave with half of what they came in with. 2 successes = beaks even. 3 successes = wins 25% more than came in with, 4 successes = 50% more, 4 successes = doubled his/her money, 5 successes = 150% more, with an additional 50% more per every success. Modifiers based on distractions, alcohol consumed, honesty of the casino, etc. If the player has a Math SPU, the TN is 3. Special Rule: If a player rolls double the target number on any die, it counts as two successes, triple = 3 successes, etc. This is only for gambling to reflect the odds that even someone who knows nothing about a game still has a chance on pure luck of winning money.

This is a rough system, you might want to research on the web or thumb through a book on gambling and write down the average house takes on the different games and modify that based on the game.

And BTW, not to pull sources or anything, but I've read somewhere around a dozen books on gambling and EVERY ONE states that a line or don't pass bet with odds in craps is the best bet in a casino. Sorry, but I'm taking the word of a dozen or so career gamblers (people who make a LIVING at playing in casinos) than someone who got lucky at Caesar's once.

The Abstruse One

Perhaps it is, but I've lived in Vegas and I've won at more then just Ceaser's (it was one example) and I've never once met a gambler who makes their money playing craps. But I'm not one to start an argument, so believe what you want to believe...that's the beauty of our freedom.

Harry Anderson's book was my favorite out of all the ones I've got. It's more like "Being a Con Man for Dummies" than a real gambling book though, but it's certainly the most fun

The Abstruse One

You know, this thread is vaguely reminding me of Slamm-O's thread concerning fighting. If BlackJack is such an easy game to make money at as the experts on this thread are telling us, why bother hold down a job. Just play Blackjack for a career. Sorry for doubting your word in the matter to anyone who this implies but gambling against the house is a losing proposistion. In Blackjack you only play against the house. Casino's wouldn't have Blackjack if they were going to lose money at the game.

(((Edit: Please note, I'm not doubting that you can in fact win money playing Blackjack if played smartly. On a trip to Las Vegas my roommate sat down at a Blackjack table pretty much upon getting there and played for several hours. Winning enough money to cover the trip. Blackjack is I am guessing his favorite game seeing as I haven't noticed him ever truly showing interest in any other Casino games. He won pretty big that time, but I know he's lost quite a few others. Most people have the "I won big story" but they rarely tell the number of times they've lost, or how much they've lost. )))


Personally I'm going to stick with the best game to play if you are highly skilled at is poker. Mostly cause you don't neccassarily play the house. Yeah, the house takes a couple bucks off every game, but you're still playing against the people. You're more likely if you are a careful observer to find a game with big money amatuers. Then again I'm a poker freak. I also know better then to sit down at a game of Texas Hold'em with my father who generally beats the pants off me. Mostly cause I can't bluff him at all for some reason, yet he can pull it over on me. That's just bad people observation on my part I guess.


Blackjack is admittedly winnable if you "cheat". I'm not saying switch cards or anything but there are tactics for winning at Blackjack, however they are incredibly frowned upon. Betting small while sucking low cards out of the deck, then betting high when the deck contains more high cards/aces porportionally. Again I've had the techniques explained to me and read about them/watched shows on them but something I've never been able to quite grasp due to my complete disinterest in the game.


Although, still my favorite game has to be Roulette. I just love playing with those chips and it's a fun game for watching.

The way I'd do it is to make Gambling a Knowledge Skill, since it's mostly mental and wouldn't be important enough in a game to cost the same as an Active Skill. I'd also rate the casino the character is playing at, and make an opposed test between his Gambling skill and the house's Rating.

If the house gets more successes, the characters looses 10% of his starting amount for every extra success. If the reverse happens, the character wins 5% of his starting amount for every extra success he gets. Nice, fast, and simple. Probably not very realistic, but that isn't really an issue unless gambling is central to the campaign.

Card counting!=cheating. The explaination casinos use to kick you out isn't that you were cheating, it's that gambling is "entertainment" and that the money you lose is the price of your "entertainment" and that by card counting you're turning the game into a source of income.
Not that they need an explaination, they're a private business, but it's what they use when they do explain that I've heard.

~J

That is correct what everyone is saying that Blackjack this and Blackjack that, and if you really want to know, I don't have a job b/c I won so much from playing Blackjack, but Poker is actually my favorite game to play. Blackjack is just easier for me to win at. Anyway we totally got of pace from the originial thread, I agree that Gambling should be a Knowledge skill with opposed tests against the house/dealer or other player depending on what they play. As far as what they win will again depend on what they bet, what the play, and whom they are playing against. Then from that follow the rules for Gambling IRL. But ultimately the final decision is up to the GM.

This way would be alot more entertaining for everyone:

Blackjack: Whip out a deck of cards and be the dealar.

If the player wishes to use a gambling skill to predict the card, have them make an opposed test. The GM rolls 2 dice for each deck being used at the casino table in the game, regardless of how many decks there are IRL. Increase the amount of dice per deck as much as you wish.

Example:
If the player has a gambling skill of 4 and the dealer is using 6 decks at the table, the player would roll 4 dice and the GM would roll 12 dice.

If the player wins or loses, the GM always looks at the card in question. If the player wins the opposed test, the GM tells him that he predicts that card. If the player loses, the GM tells him that he predicts some other card.

Example:
The GM looks at the card on top of the deck. It is a 10 of clubs. If the player wins, the GM tells him, "You predict a 10." If the player loses, the GM tells him, "You predict a 3."

If the player wants to cheat, well then that is where the GM can have some real fun with this.

Be creative! Use a deck of cards!

Total break of topic here..

But I always heard that "baccarat" was the best odds for a gambling game.

I have only the knowledge imparted by a few "Vegas" specials on TV and by talking to a few gambling friend.

Of course... Whenever we say "odds" it always favors the house.

Craps on the line or don't pass with odds is better than mini-bac, but only slightly. The reason mini-bac is so popular is that you don't have to actually play unless you want to. But it's purely a guessing game. You pick player or dealer and put your money out. The odds are about 50.1% for dealer and 49.9% for player, but betting on the house costs a small percentage of your winnings. You can also bet that the two hands will tie, which pays something like 8:1. The cards are drawn based on specific rules which I can't for the life of me remember, and the winners are paid. And you have to settle up your commision bets before you leave the table. The other problem is that mini-bac usually has a high buy-in or high minimum bet -- $25 or $50 a bet depending on the tables at the casinos around here. You might find cheaper tables in Vegas, I don't know. They give you little slips of paper so you can keep track of who wins what at the mini-bac table, but it doesn't mean shit when it's 6-8 decks of cards shuffled very well.

Pure chance, damn near 50:50 odds, and free alcohol. You'll probably end up a little ahead or a little behind depending on how your luck runs, but you'll be at the table for a while if you bet conservatively and you'll have plenty of time to get totally wasted on free booze.

But if you REALLY want to just suck up free alcohol, the game for you is Pai-Gow Poker. You're dealt 7 cards and have to make two hands -- one 5 card hand (low hand) and one 2 card hand (high hand). Your high hand has to beat your low hand, and both your hands have to beat the dealer's for you to win. However, the dealer has to beat both of yours for you to lose. So if you play correctly, 9 out of every 10 hands will be a draw. You can seriously sit at a Pai-Gow Poker table for round about 8 hours playing every single hand and walk out of the casino dead even. You won't make money at it most likely, but you won't lose your ass either. And again, there's the free alcohol. And all that time on the table counts for your casino comps too

The Abstruse One

I can't speak for any other casinos, but the relatively small riverboat casinos in Lake Charles, LA and I presume the others owned by Harrahs and Isle of Carpi around the country use a combination of how much you buy in for, how long you play, and your average bet to come up with some sort of point value. Then the pit boss determines, based on that figure as well as if you're with any friends who happen to drop a lot of cash what comps you can get. For example, I tend to play craps and blackjack playing the table minimum, but I usually end up wandering off after a couple of hours and just hanging around the bar. I do this once every week or two. My friend, though, goes two or three times a week, buys in for between $200 and $500, plays for 4-8 hours straight on the mini-bac tables betting between $25 and $100 a hand. Therefore, when I went up to get my meal comp, it was upgraded because they saw me with my friend and knowing that if they forced someone of his stature to eat at the buffet rather than the nice restaurant just because his friend was a few points too short, he might want to take his money elsewhere.

The Abstruse One

Fair point, but here (where i work) generally you won't get upgraded based on who yours friends drop is (and it the computer that works out the comps, tho mangement needs to authorised and top end comps). The only time it would be different is with the chinese, where cos they drop so much money (read: launder) that they somewhat take the piss in realation to comps.