BnF95
May 2 2006, 02:19 PM
Okay, I'm pretty certain concealing weapons is the Palming skill, with the specialization of (Legerdemain???) and modified by the size of the weapon (or object for that matter) that is being hidden.
One of my PCs wants to create a psuedo-wooden sword roughly shaped like a Katana, that can be hollowed out and hide his Katana inside. I figured that is feasible, the only question is ... how much bonus should I give him for visual tests to spot the weapon? Obviously MAD will still detect the metal (though it can be explained away as lead filling to increase the weight of the "practice sword") but for the sake of visual tests only?
By the way, does the "bokken" become a club or is still wielded as a blade? My ruling (temporarily) was it was still a blade although I did modify the damage to (STR/2+1)P like a club.
Teulisch
May 2 2006, 03:39 PM
yes, palming+agility vs intuition+perception.
modifiers for what its hiding under (long coat gets bonus), or in (concealed holster, arm slide).
keep in mind theres a LOT of things looking for weapons:
1) the mark 1 eyeball. just a gaurd lookin funny at ya
2) MAD detector. only finds metal, will miss ceramics and plastics.
3) Cyberware scanner. this will find weapons on threshold 1, other gear thresh 2
4) cybersniffer. this thing adds dice to perception for odors, and it can pick up traces of gunpowder or explosives.
Moon-Hawk
May 2 2006, 03:50 PM
The standard palming+agility vs intuition+perception is to hide the whole thing from view. As I understand it, you're less concerned with hiding the entire bokken, but really concerned with hiding it's true nature from a human search. I have no idea, but I'd assign a reasonable threshold, probably based on the craftsmanship of the thing.
As for weilding it as a blade vs a club, it's a judgement call but I'd support your ruling, as it is still balanced, shaped, wielded, etc. as a bladed weapon, just with a blunt damage code. If someone else wanted to use it as a club, I'd probably let them use that, too; they'd just be swinging it more like a baseball bat.
stevebugge
May 2 2006, 04:11 PM
QUOTE (BnF95) |
One of my PCs wants to create a psuedo-wooden sword roughly shaped like a Katana, that can be hollowed out and hide his Katana inside. I figured that is feasible, the only question is ... how much bonus should I give him for visual tests to spot the weapon? Obviously MAD will still detect the metal (though it can be explained away as lead filling to increase the weight of the "practice sword") but for the sake of visual tests only? |
For this situation I would use the concealability of a Katana for the Practice Sword if he were trying to keep the entire object hidden. If he is carrying it in plain sight, then the test isn't concealablity anymore it's a fasttalk or con test to get someone to believe that it is what he says and there is a reasonable explanation for him to have it. The test I'm not so sure about would be the test to use when the guard demands to make a close inspection of the "practice" sword to see if he notices a seam or something to give away it's true nature.
bustedkarma
May 2 2006, 04:18 PM
I'm thinking The Man (be he Bouncer, Star, Bodyguard, or Corp Sec) is gonna give your Runner a hard time about it. Even if "The Inspector" can't figure out that it's really a razor sharp tool of death inside the practice sword, he's still carrying what amounts to a 3 foot club.
Nasrudith
May 2 2006, 07:40 PM
It's more of a con test to convince them "it's a fake" then it is to conceal it. That's assuming they don't have draconian airport policies.
I guess just give it club damage and sword skill.
Shrike30
May 2 2006, 08:09 PM
I'd say you could use the Blades skill with it at a penalty (-1 or -2, probably), or you could use Club. Designed to be used like a sword or not, there's a big difference between trying to damage someone with a sword and trying to damage someone someone with a blunt object, even if that object is sword-shaped.
TheUnforgiven
May 2 2006, 08:37 PM
I might be mistaken, but isn't most of the damage done by a katana done by slashing(drawing the blade over the skin/armor) and not the smashing like with a broadsword?
If this is the case, the Bokken wouldn't do near as much damage as a club or a katana, using the blades skill...
Aaron
May 2 2006, 08:55 PM
Japanese armor is designed to deflect, so the ideal katana strike is a quick snap that hits the armor normal to its curvature (straight on), and then snaps back out so as not to get caught on armor, bone, or other viscera.
Austere Emancipator
May 2 2006, 09:08 PM
QUOTE (TheUnforgiven) |
[...] and not the smashing like with a broadsword? |
*URGH*
All cutting swords do most damage (to unarmored targets) with a cut.
BnF95
May 2 2006, 11:04 PM
QUOTE (stevebugge) |
QUOTE (BnF95 @ May 2 2006, 06:19 AM) | One of my PCs wants to create a psuedo-wooden sword roughly shaped like a Katana, that can be hollowed out and hide his Katana inside. I figured that is feasible, the only question is ... how much bonus should I give him for visual tests to spot the weapon? Obviously MAD will still detect the metal (though it can be explained away as lead filling to increase the weight of the "practice sword") but for the sake of visual tests only? |
For this situation I would use the concealability of a Katana for the Practice Sword if he were trying to keep the entire object hidden. If he is carrying it in plain sight, then the test isn't concealablity anymore it's a fasttalk or con test to get someone to believe that it is what he says and there is a reasonable explanation for him to have it. The test I'm not so sure about would be the test to use when the guard demands to make a close inspection of the "practice" sword to see if he notices a seam or something to give away it's true nature. |
I had assumed that it would be like in RL, I can carry my bokken arround and claim its because I'm on the way to the dojo to train.
QUOTE (bustedkarma) |
I'm thinking The Man (be he Bouncer, Star, Bodyguard, or Corp Sec) is gonna give your Runner a hard time about it. Even if "The Inspector" can't figure out that it's really a razor sharp tool of death inside the practice sword, he's still carrying what amounts to a 3 foot club. |
Actually 4 foot club (if you count the handle).
QUOTE (Nasrudith) |
It's more of a con test to convince them "it's a fake" then it is to conceal it. That's assuming they don't have draconian airport policies. I guess just give it club damage and sword skill. |
Con ... if bringing it through security, yes, but I was actually thinking about the katana being noticed rather than the bokken.
QUOTE (Shrike30) |
I'd say you could use the Blades skill with it at a penalty (-1 or -2, probably), or you could use Club. Designed to be used like a sword or not, there's a big difference between trying to damage someone with a sword and trying to damage someone someone with a blunt object, even if that object is sword-shaped. |
QUOTE (TheUnforgiven) |
I might be mistaken, but isn't most of the damage done by a katana done by slashing(drawing the blade over the skin/armor) and not the smashing like with a broadsword?
If this is the case, the Bokken wouldn't do near as much damage as a club or a katana, using the blades skill... |
I was using club damage, after all it'd still be a 4 foot club, weighted with metal in the center. I thought [STR/2 +1]P would be an acceptable damage code.
Shrike30
May 2 2006, 11:46 PM
I'm fine with the Club damage code... you've got yourself a weighted stick, after all. My suggestion was that you use the Club skill, or allow the player to use his Blades skill with a -1 or -2 penalty, since, sword-shaped or not, it's a blunt weapon.
ronin3338
May 3 2006, 01:11 AM
I wouldn't assess a penalty to the Blades skill. It's designed for Blade practice, and while lighter, it is wielded the same way. Also, if the PC is skilled with the katana, he should be very familiar with the bokken.
For the damage, slashing/bashing doesn't really matter here, IMHO. If you use the bokken like a katana, you stand a good chance of tearing/burning the skin as the wooden edge slides across it, and a cutting motion will do impact damage like a club. You don't really wield a sword by trying to pull the edge along a surface, you chop down with it.
Geekkake
May 3 2006, 05:12 AM
QUOTE (ronin3338) |
I wouldn't assess a penalty to the Blades skill. It's designed for Blade practice, and while lighter, it is wielded the same way. Also, if the PC is skilled with the katana, he should be very familiar with the bokken.
For the damage, slashing/bashing doesn't really matter here, IMHO. If you use the bokken like a katana, you stand a good chance of tearing/burning the skin as the wooden edge slides across it, and a cutting motion will do impact damage like a club. You don't really wield a sword by trying to pull the edge along a surface, you chop down with it. |
I disagree, and refer you to the difference between an Indian burn and smacking someone in the head with a baton.
BnF95
May 3 2006, 07:51 AM
I'll bite, what is an Indian burn?
Dranem
May 3 2006, 09:44 AM
Indian burn is reffered to the redness associated to rubbing your skin near raw.
Other examples: rug burn, carpet burn.
I believe it was a ritual the natives used to test resolve, perhapse even used during interogation using cloth or leather hide and basically chafing or rubbing the skin till it became painfully red.
Dashifen
May 3 2006, 02:52 PM
Honestly, if you're going to be carrying the "bokken" in plain sight and it's hiding a katana within it, I'd call this more of a disguise test rather than a concealment one. Have the owner roll Disguise + Intuition, perhaps with extra dice from an Artisan skill for making the bokken. Then, the threshold for metahumans to notice the katana within the bokken would be equal to the hits on the disguise test.
Poor disguise rolls could be represented by leaving the catch undone so it's clear that the bokken is more of a case, not connecting it well so that some of the blade might glint in the right lighting conditions, or having someone notice that it's too heavy for a normal wooden practice sword. 'Course, as others have said, talking your way out of such a situation is then a Con test.
hobgoblin
May 3 2006, 10:03 PM
sounds a bit like a sword cane or umbrella...
BnF95
May 4 2006, 06:14 AM
Disguise??? Why didn't I think of that? Thanks Dashifen!
Shrike30
May 4 2006, 07:21 PM
"I'm going to the dojo. This is my bokken."
"Sir, we're a manufacturing plant. We don't have a dojo here."
"I, uh, I'm taking a tour first. Of the plant."
"Uh... right. Let me just check when that tour is scheduled for... -Bob, get security up here, we got another shadowrunner wannabe trying to bring a big walking stick into the plant-"
PBTHHHHT
May 4 2006, 07:37 PM
Speaking of concealing weapons and palming... David Copperfield the illusionist was in the news.
Here's the story, he and his assistants were being robbed, the robbers took cash and such from his assistants but when it came to his turn. Nada, he did a reverse palming and hid his money, passports, etc... It's rather funny.
Nikoli
May 4 2006, 11:55 PM
Honestly, the boken wouldn't be of any use if it uses a different skill to fight with. It is after all a wooden practice sword, it is swung like a sword, held like a sword and carried (mostly) like a sword. It should use the same skill as a sword, otherwise it defeats the purpose for using it in sword drills and practice.
Shrike30
May 5 2006, 12:04 AM
...
You don't use a bokken because you're trying to have a weapon that you fight with like a blade, but happens to be a club. You use a bokken because training people to swordfight with actual swords tends to get people killed. Their primary reason to exist is to be training implements, not combat gear.
If someone with Clubs 3 wants to grab a bokken and hit someone with the four foot long, slightly curved stick he just picked up, I'd let him use his Clubs skill at it's full rating.
If someone with Blades 3 wants to grab a bokken and hit someone with the four foot long, slightly curved stick he just picked up, I'll let him... but i'd slap on a -2 penalty.
Training with a bokken isn't oriented towards the most effective way to hurt someone with a sword-shaped club, it's oriented towards the most effective way to hurt someone with a blade. One is sharp, the other is not. Opponents fight against blunt weapons completely differently than they fight against swords. If you want to be a totally awesome bokken fighter, take Clubs (Bokken) or, hell, Blades (Bokken), which would cancel the -2 penalty with the +2 specialization bonus. But as much as it's shaped like a sword, it isn't one. It's a club.
BnF95
May 5 2006, 12:06 AM
QUOTE (Shrike30) |
"I'm going to the dojo. This is my bokken." "Sir, we're a manufacturing plant. We don't have a dojo here." "I, uh, I'm taking a tour first. Of the plant." "Uh... right. Let me just check when that tour is scheduled for... -Bob, get security up here, we got another shadowrunner wannabe trying to bring a big walking stick into the plant-" |
If you looked at the melee weapons list, the clubs, staves, etc. etc. are not restricted or forbidden.
Austere Emancipator
May 5 2006, 06:54 AM
Doesn't matter what its legal status is, if security doesn't want you with your club to enter the premises they can escort you outside.
Shrike30
May 5 2006, 07:09 AM
QUOTE (BnF95 @ May 4 2006, 04:06 PM) |
If you looked at the melee weapons list, the clubs, staves, etc. etc. are not restricted or forbidden. |
That's because you can make them out of a piece of pipe or a wooden dowel. Those items are kind of hard to restrict.
Cameras are legal today, but a lot of companies won't let you bring cameras into places like R&D labs. Trying to explain to a security guard why you don't want to leave your bokken at the front desk of a manufacturing plant while you go on a tour is likely to have penalties due to the presense of a wooden training weapon making the guard suspicious, in much the same way that refusing to set down a foot-long lead pipe might.
BnF95
May 5 2006, 11:54 PM
What about going around on the streets? Would it be sufficient cause for Lone Star to just stop you?
Shrike30
May 6 2006, 12:03 AM
A bokken? Depends on the neighborhood. In most places, it's not worth the Star's trouble to pick up some guy not even carrying a real sword. AAA neighborhood? Depends on if you blend in or not. Get yourself some 'burb clothes and an ID that says you're corporate, you've got good odds they'll just wave and drive on by.
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