I throw a gernade. Does it go off before I get to act next pass, or after I get to act next pass?
Full Version: When do gernades explode?
i believe its the begining of your pass, before you can act.
| QUOTE ("SR4 p. 135 under Timed Items and Initiative") |
| Some items, such as grenades, explosive devices, timed traps, and so on are timed as to exactly when they will explode. In most situations, these items will detonate on the character’s (current) Initiative Score during the next Initiative Pass. If there are no more Combat Turns, the item will detonate as the gamemaster sees fit. If an item has a timer set by a player character, that character can decide when it goes off , but he must declare this when the item is activated. As a default, it’s best to have such items go off on the character’s Initiative Score during a predetermined pass or at the beginning or end of a Combat Turn. Note that timed items always go last in the case of tied Initiative Scores. |
(emphasis mine)
So, if a grenade has the same Initiative Score as the character who threw/launched it and explodes on that score one pass later but it will automatically lose ties on Initiative Scores, then the grenade will go off after the character's actions, assuming the character has more passes in which to act.
another reason to have enhanced reflexes. instead of going "oh shit!" and blowing up, you can go "oh shit" and run away or try to trow the grenade back 
Dashifen has it exactly correct. There's an additional reference to this on page 145...
| QUOTE |
| Timing Grenades As noted under Timed Items and Initiative (p. 135), a grenade detonates on the next Initiative Pass using the Initiative Score of the character who threw it (unless the attacker is using an airburst link, see p. 310, in which it detonates on that Action Phase). |
So, a grenade launcher with an airburst link fires grenades that go off on the same action they are fired, like a bullet.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) | ||
(emphasis mine) So, if a grenade has the same Initiative Score as the character who threw/launched it and explodes on that score one pass later but it will automatically lose ties on Initiative Scores, then the grenade will go off after the character's actions, assuming the character has more passes in which to act. |
Shouldn't this really be next combat turn? Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense.
If I have four initiative passes my grenades go off four times faster than the guy who only has one. This is silly, as it makes what would be a "default time setting" completely variable depending on who threw the grenade.
That bothers me, too.
You throw a grenade at me. I run like mad, and manage to get out of the blast radius.
I boost my IP, and throw a grenade at you after you move for the turn. You have no extra IP, so I watch and laugh at you as the grenade goes off at your feet.
You throw a grenade at me. I run like mad, and manage to get out of the blast radius.
I boost my IP, and throw a grenade at you after you move for the turn. You have no extra IP, so I watch and laugh at you as the grenade goes off at your feet.
| QUOTE (Big D @ May 5 2006, 10:53 AM) |
| That bothers me, too. You throw a grenade at me. I run like mad, and manage to get out of the blast radius. I boost my IP, and throw a grenade at you after you move for the turn. You have no extra IP, so I watch and laugh at you as the grenade goes off at your feet. |
Big D, I'm not sure I'm following you. Folks don't have to have actions to move.
EDIT: Though it's true that in order to START/STOP moving they have to have an action in their own initiative pass.
think of this one
I throw a grenade at my initiave
You pick it up and throw it back
I throw it back to you ON MY NEXT PASS
it finally goes off
I throw a grenade at my initiave
You pick it up and throw it back
I throw it back to you ON MY NEXT PASS
it finally goes off
the movement rate is meters pr round. therefor no matter how many passes you have, you can only move X meters that round.
initiative passes is more about rapid eye to hand responses then movement speed.
by the time A have shot a guy, registerd that he is down and started aiming at a second guy, B have allready shot 2-3 guys because of his supercharged reaction time.
initiative passes is more about rapid eye to hand responses then movement speed.
by the time A have shot a guy, registerd that he is down and started aiming at a second guy, B have allready shot 2-3 guys because of his supercharged reaction time.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| think of this one I throw a grenade at my initiave You pick it up and throw it back I throw it back to you ON MY NEXT PASS it finally goes off |
allso known as playing "hot potato"...
If you're just standing there and have not declared a move, and I throw a grenade at your feet, and *anybody* has extra IP, you aren't going to have an action to start moving with before it explodes.
| QUOTE (Protagonist @ May 5 2006, 10:29 AM) |
| Shouldn't this really be next combat turn? Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense. If I have four initiative passes my grenades go off four times faster than the guy who only has one. This is silly, as it makes what would be a "default time setting" completely variable depending on who threw the grenade. |
I agree with this assessment of the mechanics. To be more consistent the grenade would need to go off on the thrower's first initiative pass in the next combat turn.
But what are the mechanical problems associated with doing just that? It seems to me that the way the game works, everyone would be able to just run away from the grenade. No one would ever get hurt by them and so they would be completely ineffective. For game balance purposes it seems reasonable to have the grenade go off on the thrower's next action.
Is there flaw in this assessment?
| QUOTE (coolgrafix) |
| But what are the mechanical problems associated with doing just that? It seems to me that the way the game works, everyone would be able to just run away from the grenade. No one would ever get hurt by them and so they would be completely ineffective. For game balance purposes it seems reasonable to have the grenade go off on the thrower's next action. Is there flaw in this assessment? |
Well, it would be possible to run away from a grenade and dive for cover (I've heard instances of grenades getting thrown back, and there's always the stories of the guy sacrificing himself by jumping on to the grenade). If you don't see it though (like you roll it along the ground out of sight, etc.), or if you're in an enclosed space with no way to get away from it (or immobilized in some way), you'd get hit by it.
Not really, in single IP combat it would be pretty straightforward.
In multiple IP combat, timed grenades would be mostly useless, which doesn't bother me all that much--you're talking people who respond quickly enough to situations to be able to do things like pick up the grenade and throw it back.
I would almost argue that it should be a full turn from the fuse being lit, regardless of which IP it happened on. That way, if somebody throws a grenade on IP4, it goes off on the next IP4.
Yes, that makes thrown grenades as dangerous to the user as the target in some cases. Use airburst, and they can't throw it back.
One thing the BBB doesn't make clear is whether non-airburst minis use timed or impact fuses. The implication seems to be the former, but I'd argue the latter; so, they'd go off on the same action, but face larger scatter than an airburst.
[Edit] Oh, and if the fuse lasts an entire turn, there's no reason you can't hold on to it until the IP before and then throw it. However, if you want to introduce a little realism into the fight, have the DM make a secret roll of how many IPs a fuse is going to *really* burn, and an unmodified (complete chance) roll for it to go off when somebody picks it up. [/Edit]
In multiple IP combat, timed grenades would be mostly useless, which doesn't bother me all that much--you're talking people who respond quickly enough to situations to be able to do things like pick up the grenade and throw it back.
I would almost argue that it should be a full turn from the fuse being lit, regardless of which IP it happened on. That way, if somebody throws a grenade on IP4, it goes off on the next IP4.
Yes, that makes thrown grenades as dangerous to the user as the target in some cases. Use airburst, and they can't throw it back.
One thing the BBB doesn't make clear is whether non-airburst minis use timed or impact fuses. The implication seems to be the former, but I'd argue the latter; so, they'd go off on the same action, but face larger scatter than an airburst.
[Edit] Oh, and if the fuse lasts an entire turn, there's no reason you can't hold on to it until the IP before and then throw it. However, if you want to introduce a little realism into the fight, have the DM make a secret roll of how many IPs a fuse is going to *really* burn, and an unmodified (complete chance) roll for it to go off when somebody picks it up. [/Edit]
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| think of this one I throw a grenade at my initiave You pick it up and throw it back I throw it back to you ON MY NEXT PASS it finally goes off |
...ahh. the ol' Hot Potatoe syndrome.
[edit]
oops, didn't read far enough into the thread...
am i the only one that finds the grenade rules to be really silly? not just SR4, this dates all the way back to SR1, as far as i remember. real grenades don't go off that fast--there's way too much of a chance it'll go off early. of course, all this throwing back of grenades is somewhat silly, too.
to make them as realistic as i know how, i'd give them a 2-turn fuse; most grenades go off in about 5-7 seconds, though there are some that are designed to go off faster or slower. in real life, the actual time is variable, but i guess we can skip that for the sake of simplicity. in order to throw a grenade back, i'd rule that you have to make a successful perception test, probably a relatively tough one--TN 6 or so, plus vision mods. in addition, i'd say that the act of throwing the grenade is not automatically obvious; maybe the thrower can take a +2 TN or so (SR3 rules, SR4 players can convert on their own time) in order to force a perception check to notice the throw.
actual throwing back of grenades would be handled as-is. cover (real cover, not bushes or something) should be pretty handy for resisting grenades. say at +2 cover, you get 1/4 the barrier rating as armor; 1/2 at +4, and 3/4 at +6.
to make them as realistic as i know how, i'd give them a 2-turn fuse; most grenades go off in about 5-7 seconds, though there are some that are designed to go off faster or slower. in real life, the actual time is variable, but i guess we can skip that for the sake of simplicity. in order to throw a grenade back, i'd rule that you have to make a successful perception test, probably a relatively tough one--TN 6 or so, plus vision mods. in addition, i'd say that the act of throwing the grenade is not automatically obvious; maybe the thrower can take a +2 TN or so (SR3 rules, SR4 players can convert on their own time) in order to force a perception check to notice the throw.
actual throwing back of grenades would be handled as-is. cover (real cover, not bushes or something) should be pretty handy for resisting grenades. say at +2 cover, you get 1/4 the barrier rating as armor; 1/2 at +4, and 3/4 at +6.
Real grenades take 3 seconds to go off from when the clip is let loose. Could always house rule that in.
I could be mistaken, but I've always seen SR grenades like the one seen in Aliens 4. The clip portion also acts as the remote detonator, allowing the grenade to be used like an IED or booby trap, in addition you can just set them to a default time, a dead-man switch, or my personal favorite, a proximity detonation (though that might require installing an RFID equipped with a motion sensor and linking it to the grenade).
I'm a big fan of using grenades to be diversions. I've had many characters with no skill whatsoever in throwing have several grenades to leave lying about while on a run, setting them off as needed to distract the opposition. Goo and flashbangs are especially useful. Find where the enemy is likely to hunker down and take cover and place your boobytraps there.
of course, this can be used against you.
I'm a big fan of using grenades to be diversions. I've had many characters with no skill whatsoever in throwing have several grenades to leave lying about while on a run, setting them off as needed to distract the opposition. Goo and flashbangs are especially useful. Find where the enemy is likely to hunker down and take cover and place your boobytraps there.
of course, this can be used against you.
Real grenades have fuzes of varying length, as mfb said. The ones I handled in the Finnish Defense Forces had fuzes of about 2.5 to 3.5 seconds, while the US standard M213 fuzes for M67 grenades usually burn from 4 to 5 seconds.
There are plenty of other possible configurations. The US AN-M14 TH3 incendiary grenade, smoke grenades, and CS riot control grenades, for example, use a 1.2 to 2 second fuze (the M201A1).
There are plenty of other possible configurations. The US AN-M14 TH3 incendiary grenade, smoke grenades, and CS riot control grenades, for example, use a 1.2 to 2 second fuze (the M201A1).
i don't believe they actually come with that many options. you can certainly set timers, though--anywhere from 2 seconds to 2 minutes. i've had characters toss 2 minute grenades in random locations during an exfiltration, in order to keep security busy looking for the team inside the facility when they'd actually already exited.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i've had characters toss 2 minute grenades in random locations during an exfiltration, in order to keep security busy looking for the team inside the facility when they'd actually already exited. |
Oh, that is classy
I like the idea of the RFID sensor-equipped grenade. Suddenly makes all sorts of crazy stuff possible.
As for grenades going off in the next IP, this is one of those cases where the SR time scale breaks down. Yeah, the next IP could be 3 seconds away, or 0.75, and the grenade's fuse magically gets longer or shorter, but it's a game balance thing.
My ruling is that launched grenades always go off on the turn they're launched... the whole "bouncing grenade" Quake-style launcher thing is just silly, and the thought that the difference between an airburst, and travelling the two extra meters needed to hit the ground is going to be that much time is pretty out there, too. Obviously, airburst scatter less.
Hand grenades, on the other hand, usually come with a default fuse setting (the timer duration you get if you just pull the pin and throw it, spoon popping off as it leaves your hand). On most grenades, this is the mysterious "one IP" setting, as it allows you to go "oh, shit" and duck if you fumble the 'nade. On some types (or if the character orders them this way/Armorers them) they go off on that same turn (things like flashbangs are usually wired this way) because of the way they're designed to be used.
Hm... with the RFID grenade, imagine how quickly you could create a kill zone. Take a bunch of grenades, pass them out to your teammates, throw them out into the field/street/whatever in front of you with the team PAN keeping their positions on AR. Instant IEDs...
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i don't believe they actually come with that many options. you can certainly set timers, though--anywhere from 2 seconds to 2 minutes. i've had characters toss 2 minute grenades in random locations during an exfiltration, in order to keep security busy looking for the team inside the facility when they'd actually already exited. |
That's a good idea
I liked using bigger timed explosives for similar situations. Kinda odd when I look at it, my chars tended to be more reserved when it came to shooting people, but I did seem to like my explosives.Are airburst grenades considered timed? Kinda the rangefinder calculates distance, figures out the velocity that the grenade will be travelling and then determines the time it'll take?
tough question. on the one hand, you don't time bullets fired at targets a klick away. on the other, it does take a bit longer for a launched grenade to reach its target than a bullet. i guess might use the current rules for timed grenades (attacker's next pass) for airburst grenades. a grenade with a 3-second airtime between launch at a target 40m away is a bit of an oddity, but oh well.
In a way I could see why airburst grenades still have a scatter, since it could figure out what the time SHOULD be, but due to environmental circumstances when you actually fire the grenade, its close but not precise. Or the damn thing just rounds numbers
With RFID grenades, you could set a safety where the grenade would not detonate within x meters of a transmitter. Or reverse it to go off when a security force passes, using their saftey transmission as the detonator (no extra sensors required).
Remember, airburst grenades are loosely based on the OICW/OCSW concepts, using something similar to a smartlink to determine range and det point. CEP for the IRL versions is something like a couple of meters long or short +/- operator ranging error, and side to side however good the shooter is.
So, short version, I don't have any problem with the airburst miss radius.
As for RFID... there's tons of evil, nasty things as yet unexplored that can be done with explosives and the wireless world. Claymores triggered by matrix, explosive charges set to go off when a particular node crashes, drone-relay command detonation, mines with RFID readers that stay passive until an active reader gets close, then ping all around for friendly IFF RFIDs and go off if they don't get any (just the thing for slowing down search parties)...
Evil, evil stuff. Once everybody gets used to the nastiness that is the unwired world, I expect to hear lots of horror stories.
So, short version, I don't have any problem with the airburst miss radius.
As for RFID... there's tons of evil, nasty things as yet unexplored that can be done with explosives and the wireless world. Claymores triggered by matrix, explosive charges set to go off when a particular node crashes, drone-relay command detonation, mines with RFID readers that stay passive until an active reader gets close, then ping all around for friendly IFF RFIDs and go off if they don't get any (just the thing for slowing down search parties)...
Evil, evil stuff. Once everybody gets used to the nastiness that is the unwired world, I expect to hear lots of horror stories.
On bombs set to go when a host drops, that idea isn't entirely new with the new Matrix. The Crash 2 nukes were rigged to start their 10 minute/1 hour (IIRC) countdowns from when they lost local Matrix connection, allowing the EMP strikes and faultline nukes, repectively, to time taking out the remainding Matrix infrastructure right after, but not before, the worm had done it's dirty work.
EDIT: Of course the new wireless gear makes it easier, cheaper, and therefore likely more common place. Just as the new wireless gear makes mobile Matrix access not new, but easier, cheaper, and more common place.
EDIT: Of course the new wireless gear makes it easier, cheaper, and therefore likely more common place. Just as the new wireless gear makes mobile Matrix access not new, but easier, cheaper, and more common place.
True.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.