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fool
An issue that came up in my last session is what actually motivattes a character of shadowrunner caliber to be a runner. Anyone who is a shadowrunner could have a nice cushy job giving them at minimum middle lifestyle, all above board. A shadowunner could even start with a full legal sin meaning that he wouldn't have to worry about legal complications (in fact the rules mechanics rewards this condition albeit with drawbacks.)
So why would anyone wiht this high of skill level ever bother doing the dirty, dangerous and just downright unpleasant work of shadowrunning?
James McMurray
  • Disillusionment at the corporate world, possibly spurred by betrayal.
  • living for the thrill
  • their wife was killed by a one-armed man and they were framed
  • shadowrunning may pay as much as a middle lifestyle, but you only work 3 days a month
  • alcohol or drug abuse makes a job hard to hold on to
  • Playing with the big guns means giving your loaytaly to someone besides yourself
UndeadPoet
Loyalty to a person that can't escape the shadows.

Actually, few of my characters have a special motivation for running.
One knows that the only thing he is able to is taking life, and if he is paid for it, nice.
Another one is into the idea of breaking the limits of the human body by throwing himself into challenge after challenge.
Yet another one believes only in himself and his personal freedom and does not want a "real job".
Kanada Ten
Random Angst Generator #12
[ Spoiler ]
FanGirl
What about simply not having a SIN? You can't get a legal job without one, so it stands to reason that SINless people are forced to take illegal jobs, such as "shadowrunner." In fact, a runner is practically expected to be SINless: having a SIN is officially a Negative Quality in SR4.
Kanada Ten
Well, lots and lots of people don't have a SIN, but the vast majority of them can never develope the skills needed to be elite runners. That said, I think SINless is part of Random Angst #1-9. ;)
Backgammon
Actually, there are really very few plausible reasons why one would shadowrun. The highest being that you CANNOT hold a normal job. People raised in the ultra violence of the Barrens, or hell simply an abusing home, psychologically damaged so that normal work can't do, a path of violence and risk is all they can know.

Alternatively, people who were ok, and took the legal equivalents of Shadowrunning, such as military, corp sec, etc, but then were forced into the shadows by something that happened.

But in most cases, I think you don't chose to shadowrun. You're forced into it.
Teulisch
lets consider what it REALLY means to be a runner. It means, your the guy who will say "if you pay me money, i will do illegal and immoral acts for you, putting my own life at risk." you carry illegal weapons and gear, to B&E, kidnap, steal, and murder.

If the above is true, and you have the right usefull skills, then your a shadowrunner. If you lack the skills, then your probably in a gang, or a member of organized crime, or just a petty thug. Shadowrunning is the glamourous high-risk high-pay end of things.

as to the why... a lot of times, a person will not understand the actual risk, compared to the payoff. look how much people spend on the lottery. they see a big $$$, they go for it.

we dont need a 'plausable' reason. we just need to know why character X is doing this instead of something else. maybe he saw the Karl combat mage movie, and decided it was the life for him?

just cause we here on dumpshock have working brains, dosent necesarily mean the characters we play have to.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Backgammon)
But in most cases, I think you don't chose to shadowrun. You're forced into it.

Crime pays - and people are greedy.

It's called the shadows because there is no black and white, no real border..
Shady business in the sixth world may start innocent, but in the end, it always comes down to the balance (or the lack thereof) of greed and ethics.
FanGirl
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Well, lots and lots of people don't have a SIN, but the vast majority of them can never develope the skills needed to be elite runners. That said, I think SINless is part of Random Angst #1-9. wink.gif

They don't have to be "elite" runners. Why do you think that so many people on these forums go on and on about the importance of a "street level" gaming experience?
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (FanGirl @ May 15 2006, 05:52 PM)
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ May 15 2006, 04:34 PM)
Well, lots and lots of people don't have a SIN, but the vast majority of them can never develope the skills needed to be elite runners.  That said, I think SINless is part of Random Angst #1-9. ;)

They don't have to be "elite" runners. Why do you think that so many people on these forums go on and on about the importance of a "street level" gaming experience?

It seems to me that the original poster was speaking about elite runners, not street level criminals.

Sure, in 2070 you're very existence without a SIN is a crime, so running drugs and robbery are obvious choices. But that doesn't bring many to shadowrunning caliber.
mfb
i tend to assume that there's a glut of capable people willing to perform acts of questionable morality for money. i mean, consider how many large-scale conflicts there have been in the SR world--not just wars, but corporate takeovers involving illegal manuevering, entire sections of the countryside being cut off from all infrastructure and being forced to rely on smuggling to get basic commodities, stuff like that. the job market for guys with the skillset to be shadowrunners is going to be wide open--and the nature of the work means that the moment any political heat comes down, you're going to be out on the street, and you probably won't be hireable by any legitimate outfits.
Edward
Sinless only works for people without highly marketable skills.

And magician of any tradition could work into any megacorp office and get a job with corporate sin provided. You will have to sign a long term contract with vicious non compliance penalties on your end and the corporation chooses your postings. You will only be provided low lifestyle and medical for the 3-6 months of your corporate indoctrination. Corporate indoctrination could mean many things, in aztechnologys case being used as a ritual sacrifice but for most corps nothing worse than being plugged into psychotropic sim sense.

And not having a sin is not a crime. You are a “probationary citizen” with almost no rights and the inability to deal with any government of financial institution.


Ork4life
The man who said "give me liberty or give me death" is a man who would possibly be a shadowrunner if he lived in 2070.

Really, that quote summarizes why most shadowrunners do what they do (IMO).

I mean, let's say you are a very skilled gunman, mage, rigger, whatever. Here are your options:

-Corporate Work: Your job is probably boring and repative, but safe and comfortable. You don't have to sleep with one eye open and unless you are involved in shady dealings you don't really have to worry about someone betraying you or selling you out. You make good money and your job is perfectly legal. On the down-side, big brother isn't just watching.. he lives with you. You have no privacy at all and the corp owns you.

-Shadowrunning: Your on the wrong side of the law. You have an exciting job, but only if you consider ringing death's doorbell and running "exciting". Like corporate work, you make alot of money, but you can't really live the high life you may want to, because you don't want to draw attention to yourself. One wrong move may be your last, and in all likelihood you'll die violently and unexpectedly. On the bright side, your life is *yours*. No one can tell you who to talk to, what to do, or where to spend your free time. And you have privacy.

To pull an (admittedly extreme) example from my SR game, there was a female Mr. Johnson who we were working for who fell for me after some very lucky seduction checks (Can't really blame her though.. I mean, who can resist an ork?). Long story short; we went on a couple dates, her corp caught wind and didn't like her mingling with the 'hired help', and sent a couple thug "bodyguards" to keep me away. She's a social adept, and would probably be a welcome addition to any shadowrunning team as a face. The moral of this story? If she lived in the shadows she'd make the same kind of money, and might live in constant danger, but she'd be able to live her own life.

So the question is; is life really worth living if all you're doing is following instructions and guidelines like a drone?

If the answer is no, and you've got the skills, then shadowrunning may be for you. If it's yes, well... you might as well start typing up that resume.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (FanGirl)
What about simply not having a SIN?  You can't get a legal job without one, so it stands to reason that SINless people are forced to take illegal jobs, such as "shadowrunner."  In fact, a runner is practically expected to be SINless: having a SIN is officially a Negative Quality in SR4.

...This is KK4.1's dilemma. being the human child born to an elven family in Salem TT she ran away from home to Portland - and eventually to Seattle because of all the bigotry she was forced to endure from the other elven kids.

She was officially declared dead when the badly mauled remains of a human girl roughly her age were found in the woods north of Eugene. The genetic test was positive and her death was ruled as an accident (Critter attack).

...Of course dear old dad was a high level genetic research scientist at Willamette U.

(the whole thing is a long involved story - 60+ pages)

This makes her truly SINless
mfb
QUOTE (Edward)
Sinless only works for people without highly marketable skills.

not true at all. a SIN makes you easier to find, and everyone has enemies. if nothing else, there's the chance that prospective employer might decided to turn a quick buck by handing you over to those enemies.

basically, the SR universe is chock-full of reasons why someone with highly-marketable skills might choose to not take a 'cushy' corporate job. it is your job, as a player, to find one (or two, or ten) for your character. if you make a character and you can't figure out why he runs the shadows instead of getting a SIN and working for a corp, you probably ought to head back to the drawing board.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
And not having a sin is not a crime. You are a “probationary citizen” with almost no rights and the inability to deal with any government of financial institution.

Not any more. SR4 page 38: "Technically, everyone is supposed to have a SIN (it's illegal not to), but in reality, many people don't."

Basically, they've downgraded the status from probationary status to illgeal alien.
Edward
Mfb. True, but that isn’t running the shadows because you are sinless, that is running the shadows because you have enemies you need to hide from.

Kanada Ten, bumber.
In SR3 a magician with good ennui social skills (like 3) and enough money for a bribe could actually get a sin without selling out to a corp, and make mid lifestyle easily.

You would walk into the equivalent of the social security office and apply for full citizenship. You would need to prove you will be a worthy member of society and you can do this with a simple business plan, you wish to run your own small business setting security wards for paranoid middleclass workers. Slip the worker a thousand nuyen to grease the wheals and your legally in business for yourself.

FrankTrollman
If you are personally an Insect Magician, Ares will hire you, but only as a deniable asset. They won't take the PR hit for putting you on salary.

-Frank
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
In SR3 a magician with good ennui social skills (like 3) and enough money for a bribe could actually get a sin without selling out to a corp, and make mid lifestyle easily.

I think that's still possible for many characters. The trick is to apply for refugee status from the Matrix, grease all the wheels from cyberspace, have a few important people sign a petition, and then appear in the immigration office for your hearing - once you've insured it's a go.

And there's lots of nations that would bend over backwards to register highly skilled IT or Magical persons. The UCAS just isn't politically one of them at the moment.

QUOTE
They won't take the PR hit for putting you on salary.

@,@ These are not the Insect Shamans you are looking for.
Edward
When did the UN declaration of rights of the child get repealed

I was bord at work and it was up on the wall (translated so children could understand it) one of the rights was the right to belong to a country. This would mean a child would hav a rite to a SIN.

Edward
Edward
Aries has insect shamans on payroll.

See threats 2

Edward
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (Edward)
When did the UN declaration of rights of the child get repealed

I was bord at work and it was up on the wall (translated so children could understand it) one of the rights was the right to belong to a country. This would mean a child would hav a rite to a SIN.

Edward

I think the question you are looking for is, "When did anyone actually follow the UN declaration of rights?"
Ophis
QUOTE (Edward)
When did the UN declaration of rights of the child get repealed


When the UN collapsed in the 2030's. No UN no declaration. The UN that is about in SR4 is a rebuild using the old name.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Edward)
This would mean a child would hav a rite to a SIN.

When a child is born in an official hospital, a SIN is assigned automatically.
The number of SINless has decreased after the 2nd crash, too... everyone who wanted could get one.
cx2
Unless they couldn't get to an office to get a sin.

Sinless with the skills to be runners become runners, similar sinless people who can't get the skills become gangers as far as I can see. Plus not all runners are willing to do wetwork (+1 notoriety for doing it). There's a big difference between burglary and assassination, with the former you only kill in self defence if it goes wrong.
Voran
I pretty much side with the camp that feels SRs are SRs cause they lack the skills/mindset to be anything other than SRs. Being in a non-SR position for some reason doesn't give you the psychological satisfaction that SR things do. You may be fully aware you've chosen a deadly, difficult path but for whatever reason, it works for you.

Many of the same 'reasons' to explain why there are criminals fit the why there are SRs question too. Environment. You had to take to a life of crime to survive, and you happened to have a knack at it, which allowed you to fall into SR type work. Kinda like Hatchetman's background, piddly ganger, ganger with some cyber, Yak 'runner', down the path to helping out a corp VP chick then that VP eventually pointing a corp Johnson at Hatchet which then got him more or less into the biz. (Paraphrased from that cybertech book where he gets turned into a cyberzombie).

fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
The number of SINless has decreased after the 2nd crash, too... everyone who wanted could get one.

Source? I mean, if that's true , wouldn't that basically invalidate that whole fiction section about all the people who's identities were erased during the crash, that the goverment refused to acknowledge? THey'd just be able to re-register. But instead, they basically pretended that they didn't exist. Did that change somwhere?
FanGirl
QUOTE
The Crash of ’64 destroyed thousands if not millions of identity records, creating a surge in the SINless population. In response, many governments staged "SIN amnesty programs" and allowed the SINless to (re-)register, no questions asked—which many took advantage of to start new lives. Others, however, preferred that their pasts were gone, and took the opportunity to stay in the shadows. The truth is, many people have valid concerns (and not so rational paranoia) about how SINs are used and how their lives are monitored and tracked by governments and megacorps, and so prefer to stay outside of the system—or at least to use a false ID whenever possible. 
It is possible to register with the UCAS government and obtain a SIN, but to do so one must prove that they are a solid, upstanding citizen and that the UCAS has something to gain by admitting them. For most SINless members of the sprawl, this is not a viable option. 
The Bible, p. 259
James McMurray
You can still get a job if you're SINless. Thousands of illegal mexican immigrants get jobs every day in Fort Worth TX alone. Some of those are long term under the table jobs while others are day labor.
Aaron
QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 17 2006, 12:29 PM)
You can still get a job if you're SINless. Thousands of illegal mexican immigrants get jobs every day in Fort Worth TX alone. Some of those are long term under the table jobs while others are day labor.

True, but the pay is drek, if you get paid at all. There are many reports of employers who hire illegals and then turn them in at the end of the project, rather than pay them. Many such workers understand the risk of not getting paid for a day's work.

In the 2070, it'd be even easier to turn them in. You could do it while you were talking to them. All in all, not a good alternative to shadowrunning if you've got the skills.
James McMurray
I didn't say they were great jobs. smile.gif I just wanted to clarify that not al SINless have to become runners or gangers.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
It is possible to register with the UCAS government and obtain a SIN, but to do so one must prove that they are a solid, upstanding citizen and that the UCAS has something to gain by admitting them.

This is actually quite funny. If you apply and are denied, they slap you with a criminal SIN - which is worse than SINless in most cases. Or, worse, "We're sorry, but you don't meet our requirements. However, you have been accepted by Absurdastan and granted full citizenship. Please make your way down the hall to their embassy, where I understand a transport is waiting. Don't worry, they only require four years of military service, and I've heard the inflight training sim is really good."
James McMurray
A criminal SIN isn't gauranteed. It's more likely that they'd deport you.
Kanada Ten
Where? Every nation requires a SIN... Plus, deporting you means you were given illegal alien status, so where ever they do send you, you now have a criminal record with the UCAS (essentially a criminal SIN).
James McMurray
Who cares where? You're no longer their problem. Illegal immigrants in America don't necessarily get a criminal record, why would UCAS differ?
FanGirl
QUOTE (James McMurray)
You can still get a job if you're SINless. Thousands of illegal mexican immigrants get jobs every day in Fort Worth TX alone. Some of those are long term under the table jobs while others are day labor.

Yes, but they are not legally holding those jobs. They cannot expect the same rights and protections (such as a consistent salary paid at regular intervals, Social Security, etc.) that legal jobholders can, because their jobs are not protected by U.S. law. That difference is what makes a crappy illegal job much less desirable (from a worker's perspective) than a crappy legal job.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Who cares where? You're no longer their problem. Illegal immigrants in America don't necessarily get a criminal record, why would UCAS differ?

Actually they do. Deported illegal immigrants are processed and filed, photographed, and IIRC fingerprinted in the US. It does matter where you deport them to because the government is paying for the gas... You'd end up with the New York garbage barge situation until Asmando graciously agreed to accept them.
James McMurray
I stand corrected on the criminal record thing. I should have googled before I typed. smile.gif So they dump them at the closest border. This isn't a people loving democracy any more (not like we've really got one of those now).

FanGirl: true, but that doesn't mean they have to become a ganger or runner. Tehre are other options, which is all I was trying to say.
Nasrudith
One motivation for sinners could be they lost their job doing something stupid but not illegal. For example pissing off their boss. They're still on record and thus still a sinner.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
So they dump them at the closest border. This isn't a people loving democracy any more (not like we've really got one of those now).

That doesn't make sense; none of the neighboring nations is likely to accept a truck of SINless anymore than the UCAS would. You're back to the barge scenario. Most likely, they give you a probationary citizen criminal SIN that has few rights, but allows them to collect taxes and track you. If Lone Star is the one issuing the criminal SIN (say they arrested a group of SINless protestors), then they scan for any crimes they can ring on you before dumping you back in the streets with a brand new RFID tag latched to your intestine. In both cases you're prohibited from entering secure areas.
James McMurray
So dump them on a barge and toss them out to sea.

My view on illegal immigration is admittedly very harsh. I live in Texas where illegal immigrants eat up a comparatively large portion of jobs and health care tax dollars. Anything that keeps them out of my state is a good thing IMO.
Kanada Ten
These aren't actual illegal aliens, you <insult>, they're disenfranchised people - they're given illegal status to play to people like you. Children born from families that can't afford health care and those ex-Americans expelled from the NAN who were never allowed to intergrade into a closed society.

If they were worth removing then the Barrens would be empty.
James McMurray
If they can prove they were citizens before the crash then great. If not, screw 'em. Did you used to work in weapons design at Ares? Bring in a couple of people who have already proven themselves to work there and have them vouch for you. It isn't foolproof, but if you make the penalty for falsifying the information harsh enough you'll dissuade casual frauds.

If you're a legal citizen, then a chain of data can be traced back to a job, a doctor that remembers you, or something. Just because your SIN got erased doesn't mean that everyone's memories are also gone, so you rely on eyewitness data. Set a number of SINned witnesses that have to sign for you and then make the penalties for fraudulently signing for someone be very harsh.

Give a time limit as well. If you don't get your claim in within 6 months you're screwed unless you were somehow medically unable to get the claim in (probably because you were in a crash induced coma).
hyzmarca
But it is impossible to prove that you are who you say you are even if you have someone who can vouch for you. You could have killed a real SINer and had some plastic surgery. You could have paid these people. Witnesses mean nothing. Only records matter.

Besides, the point of the SIN was never to differientiate legals from illegals or to track people's movement. Those were just benefits. The original and true point of a SIN is to stratify society so that individuals will have a harder time seeing the government corruption around them.


As for motives, consider that any runner who has become elite knows enough dirt about enough important entities that someone would certainly kill him if he came out of the cold. The best he would hope for is a realitvly safe job as someone's pet secret agent like the members of Assets Inc.
James McMurray
QUOTE
You could have killed a real SINer and had some plastic surgery.


Yeah, because the people you hang out with and work with only know your face and voice. They don't have any shared memories you can be questioned about.

QUOTE
You could have paid these people.


That's why I said make the penalties stiff. It won't get rid of all violations but wold make them a lot less common. And of course there's the magical and technological lie detectors that you have to fool.

QUOTE
The original and true point of a SIN is to stratify society so that individuals will have a harder time seeing the government corruption around them.


Got a source for that?
FanGirl
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 17 2006, 09:33 PM)
But it is impossible to prove that you are who you say you are even if you have someone who can vouce for you. You could have killed a real SINer and had some plastic surgery. You could have paid these people.

Occam's Razor, my friend. If I claim to be, say, Jane Smith of Detroit, Michigan, and I can point to other respectable people who also claim that I am Jane Smith of Detroit, Michigan, and you don't have records of any women matching Jane Smith's description that were recently reported missing or found dead, what would lead you to assume that I killed Jane and stole her identity? If you're like most people, you'll simply accept that I am the person I claim to be and give me a SIN, instead of resorting to bizarre conspiracy theories.
hyzmarca
Since when has the government been reasonable? Modern representative government is a twisted labyranth of bureaucracy designed by the paranoid with the assumption that everyone is corrupt and any tiny loophole, leeway, or discression will be fully and completely abused.
James McMurray
And yet we still allow eye witness testimony in courts of law, despite the chance that you've paid the people off.
FanGirl
And you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone committed a crime before you can charge them with it!
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