I know another member posted something similiar to this, but I have different questions. I read thru the book, and read all the stuff about SINS and comlinks and what to do with them. Are you practically forced to carry your comlink with you? Buying is almost completely done thru comlinks and online accounts. What happeneds if you get arrested and don't have your comlink. Do they assume your SINless or is there a way to get your info like a retinal scan or the more primitive fingerprint. I wouldn't think either of these because they can easily be changed within few hours. So really if your gonna go out and cause trouble...just leave your comlink at home and really how can they proof your you? Can you get busted for not having some form of official ID? I read where they even have drones that randomly scan the level of access people put on their comlink to follow up on suspicious folks.
What would the standard procedure be if your arrested, have a SIN but no comlink or form of ID on you? Are you fined, are they harsher on you because it makes them do more work?
The book isn't very clear on these types of situations and any opinions would be appreciated.
Full Version: PAN and comlink questions
I'd bet you'd be treated like a SIN-less citizen which means bad-news for the recently-aresseted. As such, the poor treatment by the cops and long holding times would probably get you to cough up your SIN (fake-SIN for you runners) quickly.
I wouldnt say that your retina or fingerprint can be easily changed within a couple of hours. Especially not for Joe Normal, and the law is mostly for Joe Normal.
By RAW, there are certain areas where you have to be on broadcast mode with your comlink. You will almost certainly get arrested there when you do not have it on or even with you. Your comlink is your ID card and in most modern day countries, you are required to always carry your ID arround with you (though it is not enforced, most of the time, today).
If you are arrested and you carry no SIN (in your comlink) with you, they will search for your SIN (with your biometric data). If they dont find any they consider you SINles and give you a criminal SIN.
In any case, walking arround without a comlink is abnormal and you will face a lot of trouble. Dont do it.
By RAW, there are certain areas where you have to be on broadcast mode with your comlink. You will almost certainly get arrested there when you do not have it on or even with you. Your comlink is your ID card and in most modern day countries, you are required to always carry your ID arround with you (though it is not enforced, most of the time, today).
If you are arrested and you carry no SIN (in your comlink) with you, they will search for your SIN (with your biometric data). If they dont find any they consider you SINles and give you a criminal SIN.
In any case, walking arround without a comlink is abnormal and you will face a lot of trouble. Dont do it.
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| By RAW, there are certain areas where you have to be on broadcast mode with your comlink. You will almost certainly get arrested there when you do not have it on or even with you. <section clipped>> In any case, walking arround without a comlink is abnormal and you will face a lot of trouble. Dont do it. |
Serbitar-
I don't know about that. In my game the poor can apply for and recieve hardcopy SIN paperwork. It comes in the form of a card with an imbedded secure RFID chip which contains the user's SIN. The cops have to be significantly closer to read it and verify that the face associated with the ID is the face of the person carrying the ID. It's FAR more annoying for Lone Star, so they stop and hassle anyone who does not have an active comlink, but I doubt that not broadcasting is grounds for arrest. It IS prob. cause for the cops to stop you and ask for your ID. Maybe you are too poor to own a comlink (remember, a cheap comlink costs in the neighborhood of $500), or you forgot to turn it on, or your batteries are dead. Any runner is probobly going to become VERY frustrated by being felt up by the cops every 20 minutes (well, in decient security areas) and go get a comlink. All of this relates to public city streets. Go into government buildings, corp teritory or anything that even smells like private property (like a "gated comunity") and the rules change completely.
- Lebo77
P.S. Love the house rules package!
Thanks for the praise.
My information is from SR4 p.210 black box.
Of course, this is only for AA/AAA and some A areas, but I think there are definately certain places where you will run into a lot of trouble without a comlink.
BTW: The cheapest comlink is 200 Nuyen. Buy it used and you get it for 100. In Germany the cost for a passport (this new biometric one we have to have because of USA) at the moment is 85 Euros.
My information is from SR4 p.210 black box.
Of course, this is only for AA/AAA and some A areas, but I think there are definately certain places where you will run into a lot of trouble without a comlink.
BTW: The cheapest comlink is 200 Nuyen. Buy it used and you get it for 100. In Germany the cost for a passport (this new biometric one we have to have because of USA) at the moment is 85 Euros.
If you have a SIN the police will check to see if it is legit. If it is legit you will be treat as an ordinary citizen that has committed a crime (ie detained, bail procedures, court appearance, sentencing). If the SIN is not legit and they find out you will be treated as most SIN-less people and there is a posability of falling through the cracks (ie beaten badly and dumped in some field (or worse the ocean). If you have no SIN at all and the crime is serious (but not enough to be too much trouble) you will recieve a ciminal SIN (and the SINNer flaw). This should haunt your character from then on as you will be marked as a criminal to everyone how has access to your SIN (ie everyone with a commlink).
That is, of course, only if you don't bother picking up a new fake sin, or three, before you head back out into the world.
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| Thanks for the praise. My information is from SR4 p.210 black box. Of course, this is only for AA/AAA and some A areas, but I think there are definately certain places where you will run into a lot of trouble without a comlink. BTW: The cheapest comlink is 200 Nuyen. Buy it used and you get it for 100. In Germany the cost for a passport (this new biometric one we have to have because of USA) at the moment is 85 Euros. |
I don't have my book at the moment, but I remember the section you are refering to. I guess I had allways figured that when you got up into the AA security range there was not a lot of "public" space. Sure it might technichly be public, but functionaly, you can't go there. Take for example the section of Wall St. in New York directly in front of the New York Stock exchange. It's a public street. However, since Sept. 11 it has been blocked off with baracades and patroled by NYC SWAT officers with automatic rifles whenever tradeing in in session. You can walk by on the oppisite sidewalk under the watchfull glare of the boys with the big guns, but try and cross the PUBLIC street and walk up to the building and they will stop you and demand to see ID and why you are approaching the building. (All this is from experiences a year or so ago. Things may have changed.)
Takeing Seattle as a prototype: Lone Star does not make the laws, the U.C.A.S. government (through the local government) does. Lone Star simply enforces these laws. They may have company policys that make it standard practice to stop and frisk anyone without a proper comlink in AA/AAA areas (like the NYC SWAT officer who will stop you if you walk over to the NYSE building) and maybe even arrest you on any technicality they can devise to remove you from the area.
I had allways used the conversion rate of $3 = 1
, so the used comlink you proposed would cost about $300 in todays equivelent. There are MANY people who could not afford that. I therefore suppose that the government offers a method of bringing those people into compliance with the letter of the law by offering them the option of alternitive of recieveing an alternitive form of ID. The police (in this case Lone Star) have the right to stop you and demand ID at any time you are in public. Haveing a comlink broadcasting it simply relieves the owner of the obligation of having to hand over physical paperwork. One question I have allways had is why any law-abideing citizen in 2070 would NOT have a SIN. What are the roadblocks that stop a SIN-less person (who aparently can't buy or sell anything) from walking into a government office and requesting to be fingerprinted, retnal scanned, and DNA sampled, and recieveing a legal SIN? Second: would'nt the government have an INTREST in making this process easy? Why would the government want to exclude people from the most effective law-enforcement tool they have?
I agree. Somebody without a SIN (2070) can only live in in the barrens (E) and there is no reason why the "system" wouldnt everybody to have a SIN.
by the way: Look at lifestyle costs to convert Dollars to Nuyen. SR4 uses 1 Dollar today = 1 Nuyen 2070. Even a very low lifestyle person can afford a 100 Nuyen used comlink. Only squatter lifestyle cant. Thats why I think, that everybody not living in the barrens has a comlink and thats why the cops will be very suspicious if you dont.
But in the end, thats all fluff and up to every GM himself.
by the way: Look at lifestyle costs to convert Dollars to Nuyen. SR4 uses 1 Dollar today = 1 Nuyen 2070. Even a very low lifestyle person can afford a 100 Nuyen used comlink. Only squatter lifestyle cant. Thats why I think, that everybody not living in the barrens has a comlink and thats why the cops will be very suspicious if you dont.
But in the end, thats all fluff and up to every GM himself.
An RFID can have the SIN data on it and serve the function of broadcasting the ID; this is probably the form of a SIN card issued by the government.
I agree with the "government issue ID-card thing." The UCAS gov't probably has some provision for SIN-ed citizens who can't afford a Commlink. However, in high security areas where your SIN must be broadcast I have always seen little hidden scanners and Lone Start drones everywhere. Having a short-range SIN "card" doesn't mean you escape the constant scrutiny. Bottom line for runners: get a fake SIN (or 2 or 3 or 4)
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| An RFID can have the SIN data on it and serve the function of broadcasting the ID; this is probably the form of a SIN card issued by the government. |
Ohhh, we can all be "chipped" like our pets!
No. Pets have more protection under many laws than people do.
Remember, once upon a time a child abuse case was tried under the "abuse of an animal" laws because it wasn't illegal to beat your child senseless.
I imagine similar kinds flaws exist in corporate-law areas.
Remember, once upon a time a child abuse case was tried under the "abuse of an animal" laws because it wasn't illegal to beat your child senseless.
I imagine similar kinds flaws exist in corporate-law areas.
I don't see there being a particular interest in issuing cheap-ass RFID SIN cards to people on anyone's part. By the time you're close enough to scan the card on a voluntary subject, you could just as easily get a biometric ID, and those are a hell of a lot harder to forge.
On the other end of the spectrum, if you're wandering around a AA/AAA neighborhood and you don't have enough money to afford a 100 commlink, you're SOL, in my game. The cops don't want you there, the citizens don't want you there, and you're lowering the property value in the neighborhood every time you think it'd be nice to live there some day. If you're so poor that a used MetaLink with a pirated OS is more than you can afford, you've already fallen through society's cracks. If you had a SIN ID card on you, the cops would legally be obliged to let you hang out, walk the streets, annoy the gentry, or whatever... that 100 minimum one-time entry fee into the nice parts of town is a good way to keep the riff-raff out of the parts of town that pay enough taxes to keep Lone Star officers on the payroll.
We're not talking about spending $300 or whatever on a cell phone, people. We're talking about the device that carries your ID, accesses your bank accounts, contains your resume, lets you call people, recieve and send information and email, apply for jobs, operate your car, get into your house, keep in touch with your relatives, tells your parents where you are, lets the cops know who you are, and is generally a prerequisite for being a functional member of society. If you can't afford a used, bottom-of-the-barrel commlink, you're unemployed and begging on the streets because doing anything more involved in society requires a commlink.
Besides, I'm sure there's a charity out there that gives away 4 year old commlinks running someone's hacked-together OS supported by adware and that leaves a datatrail like a leaking oil tanker, incidentally monitoring your food and shopping preferences and telling you what a mistake you're making if you buy something made by someone other than a subsidiary of your commlink's manufacturer. Anyone who's got their shit even mildly together can come up with something to use.
On the other end of the spectrum, if you're wandering around a AA/AAA neighborhood and you don't have enough money to afford a 100
commlink, you're SOL, in my game. The cops don't want you there, the citizens don't want you there, and you're lowering the property value in the neighborhood every time you think it'd be nice to live there some day. If you're so poor that a used MetaLink with a pirated OS is more than you can afford, you've already fallen through society's cracks. If you had a SIN ID card on you, the cops would legally be obliged to let you hang out, walk the streets, annoy the gentry, or whatever... that 100 minimum one-time entry fee into the nice parts of town is a good way to keep the riff-raff out of the parts of town that pay enough taxes to keep Lone Star officers on the payroll.We're not talking about spending $300 or whatever on a cell phone, people. We're talking about the device that carries your ID, accesses your bank accounts, contains your resume, lets you call people, recieve and send information and email, apply for jobs, operate your car, get into your house, keep in touch with your relatives, tells your parents where you are, lets the cops know who you are, and is generally a prerequisite for being a functional member of society. If you can't afford a used, bottom-of-the-barrel commlink, you're unemployed and begging on the streets because doing anything more involved in society requires a commlink.
Besides, I'm sure there's a charity out there that gives away 4 year old commlinks running someone's hacked-together OS supported by adware and that leaves a datatrail like a leaking oil tanker, incidentally monitoring your food and shopping preferences and telling you what a mistake you're making if you buy something made by someone other than a subsidiary of your commlink's manufacturer. Anyone who's got their shit even mildly together can come up with something to use.
There was an earlier thread on the topic of people not being able to afford commlinks. The way I run it in my games, commlinks are commonly purchased like cell-phones (free, or really cheap with a 2 year service plan or something like that). Your SIN data is actually an expansion card that fits in the commlink. The SIN cards are issued by the government (a' la US Driver's Licences). The SIN card suffices for ID, though the broadcast range is short.
Setting it up this way doesn't really effect gameplay at all, but it makes it plausible for everyone (including children) to have commlinks.
Setting it up this way doesn't really effect gameplay at all, but it makes it plausible for everyone (including children) to have commlinks.
| QUOTE |
| I don't see there being a particular interest in issuing cheap-ass RFID SIN cards to people on anyone's part. By the time you're close enough to scan the card on a voluntary subject, you could just as easily get a biometric ID, and those are a hell of a lot harder to forge. |
Not really true, since non contact biometric data isn't always stored in the SIN registry. The idea of an RFID makes perfect sense in areas like universities and corporations where commlinks could be hacker houses, and similar in other controlled environments. Low end commlinks have almost the same range as an RFID anyway.
In a corporate environment, the odds are that you'd be chipped anyway. That's pretty standard practice for corporate employees. Nobody going into a university or corporate environment is too poor to afford a commlink... those who are unemployed (or unrelated to someone who is, in the case of uni students or corpkiddies) don't belong in those locations anyway. If a primary concern of these people is that commlinks are hacker houses, it'd make more sense to take commlinks away from people going into these places than it would to issue RFID cards to a portion of the population that isn't likely to go there in the first place.
If you don't have biometric data stored in the SIN registry, and you can't afford a commlink... you're screwed when the cops pick you up trespassing in Queen Anne (hey, you were in front of that guy's house...). If they can prove that you're you well enough to issue you an RFID, they could just as easily give you a retina scan, put that data into the central database, and prove you're you in the future, without bumping into the whole fake ID problem. It's a hell of a lot easier to burn an RFID to say "Yeah, uh, I'm Joe Smith," than it is to hack into the SIN database and change someone's biometric data around. If the guy the cops are trying to talk to isn't broadcasting any ID and won't look into the retinal scanner, they're going to arrest him.
If you don't have biometric data stored in the SIN registry, and you can't afford a commlink... you're screwed when the cops pick you up trespassing in Queen Anne (hey, you were in front of that guy's house...). If they can prove that you're you well enough to issue you an RFID, they could just as easily give you a retina scan, put that data into the central database, and prove you're you in the future, without bumping into the whole fake ID problem. It's a hell of a lot easier to burn an RFID to say "Yeah, uh, I'm Joe Smith," than it is to hack into the SIN database and change someone's biometric data around. If the guy the cops are trying to talk to isn't broadcasting any ID and won't look into the retinal scanner, they're going to arrest him.
It's just as easy to hack a commlink SIN, so that's a bogus argument. The university/school thing isn't about money, it's about data control. Thank you for agreeing on corporations. RFIDs never need batteries and are relatively inexpensive - the cards be paid for by part of the birth tax (plus, in secure areas you're always within a meter or two of a scanner). I see no disadvantage to issuing them.
Universities and corporations, unless they're prepared to tell every single student or employee "Hey, you have to surrender your ID, your telephone, and the device that you keep your personal journal entries, your corporate logins, and your homework on when you get here," are going to have to accept the fact that there will be commlinks in their facilities. Every piece of fluff about SR4 indicates that AR and wireless networks are, in fact, an integrated piece of daily life in corporate environments, which directly contradicts the thought that these people feel the possible security risks of having commlinks around are greater than the added productivity of not taking away every single student/employee's personal computer when they arrive.
Besides, why do you think they've got all this wireless-blocking wallpaper and random crap like that? It means that you can interact with all the stuff in the office to your heart's content, but you have to go through the corporate firewall and security setup if you want to push data (like, say, a hacking attempt or data theft) into the outside world, meaning the CorpSec hacker gets to watch whatever you do.
My understanding is that the SIN portion of every commlink is protected by a rating 6... something (Firewall, I think). Since this isn't data that's ever supposed to change, keeping the keys a secret would make sense; the person with the commlink doesn't have any legal need to know how to change what SIN his commlink broadcasts and how it responds to police queries. Getting through that Firewall to change the SIN data in a meaningful way is fairly difficult. RFIDs, on the other hand, can't even *run* a Firewall.
Besides, why do you think they've got all this wireless-blocking wallpaper and random crap like that? It means that you can interact with all the stuff in the office to your heart's content, but you have to go through the corporate firewall and security setup if you want to push data (like, say, a hacking attempt or data theft) into the outside world, meaning the CorpSec hacker gets to watch whatever you do.
My understanding is that the SIN portion of every commlink is protected by a rating 6... something (Firewall, I think). Since this isn't data that's ever supposed to change, keeping the keys a secret would make sense; the person with the commlink doesn't have any legal need to know how to change what SIN his commlink broadcasts and how it responds to police queries. Getting through that Firewall to change the SIN data in a meaningful way is fairly difficult. RFIDs, on the other hand, can't even *run* a Firewall.
Your comlink/RFID would only broadcast your SIN number. That number can be used as a pointer into the database to look for a a particular set of biometric data. That data can then be compared with the person in front of you to see if they match. This is many orders of magnitude simpler then taking some arbitary biometric data and searching the complete database looking for a match. The "search for an unknown person" process is sufficently computationaly expensive as to be impractical to do for every person walking by on the street. The "look up the number in the database" is very parctical. I would go so far as to say that very few people would store their biometric data on thier comlinks.
As for "a comlink is the price of admission" to AA+ security areas: PRACTICLY I agree. Anyone without one will find themselves harassed and questioned by every Lone Star officer they come across. However, I imagine that there is no law requireing a comlink in public areas. The cops may drag you off for jaywalking or any other technicality they can think of, but if you have an alternitive method of ID (Like a gvt.-issued ID card / RFID tag) that alone would not be grouds for arrest. (They might do it anyway, but unless they could come up with something better to charge you with, they would eventualy have to let you go in a couple of days/weeks.)
So why are there still people without legal SINs? Unless it's for secrecy (like runners and other criminals), moral objection ("I am liveing off the grid man!"), or insanity ("SINs are the mind control of the Horrors! You get one of those and you bear the mark of Virgigorm!") why would anyone NOT have a SIN?
As an interesting real-world point, the ID cards at my university are RFID tagged now. You hold your wallet up to the door, and it unlocks. Kinda cool.
As for "a comlink is the price of admission" to AA+ security areas: PRACTICLY I agree. Anyone without one will find themselves harassed and questioned by every Lone Star officer they come across. However, I imagine that there is no law requireing a comlink in public areas. The cops may drag you off for jaywalking or any other technicality they can think of, but if you have an alternitive method of ID (Like a gvt.-issued ID card / RFID tag) that alone would not be grouds for arrest. (They might do it anyway, but unless they could come up with something better to charge you with, they would eventualy have to let you go in a couple of days/weeks.)
So why are there still people without legal SINs? Unless it's for secrecy (like runners and other criminals), moral objection ("I am liveing off the grid man!"), or insanity ("SINs are the mind control of the Horrors! You get one of those and you bear the mark of Virgigorm!") why would anyone NOT have a SIN?
As an interesting real-world point, the ID cards at my university are RFID tagged now. You hold your wallet up to the door, and it unlocks. Kinda cool.
| QUOTE (Lebo77) |
| Your comlink/RFID would only broadcast your SIN number. That number can be used as a pointer into the database to look for a a particular set of biometric data. That data can then be compared with the person in front of you to see if they match. This is many orders of magnitude simpler then taking some arbitary biometric data and searching the complete database looking for a match. |
Well stated. RFID are "dumb devices" they don't do anything until they come into contact with an EMF and they emit something in return, like a look-up ID of some sort for the particular system or just a pointer to where the Menu is at for your favorite restaurant.
I'd like to think that the gummit issues some kinda hard copy version of your SIN.
What happens when you Com dies, or breaks, or you catch some virus? I'd think you'd need to dig out hardcopy of you SIN, and load it (or have it loaded) onto your new Commlink.
I guess the alternative would be going with your newly purchased com, to the 2070 DMV, them running your biometrics, and loading it on for you.
What happens when you Com dies, or breaks, or you catch some virus? I'd think you'd need to dig out hardcopy of you SIN, and load it (or have it loaded) onto your new Commlink.
I guess the alternative would be going with your newly purchased com, to the 2070 DMV, them running your biometrics, and loading it on for you.
| QUOTE |
| My understanding is that the SIN portion of every commlink is protected by a rating 6... something (Firewall, I think). Since this isn't data that's ever supposed to change, keeping the keys a secret would make sense; the person with the commlink doesn't have any legal need to know how to change what SIN his commlink broadcasts and how it responds to police queries. Getting through that Firewall to change the SIN data in a meaningful way is fairly difficult. RFIDs, on the other hand, can't even *run* a Firewall. |
That doesn't make sense because you're broadcasting the SIN data. It doesn't matter how many Firewalls you hide it behind it when you then send it into the air. Besides altering your own commlink SIN data could be a hardware test, not an attack against the software.
| QUOTE |
| Universities and corporations, unless they're prepared to tell every single student or employee "Hey, you have to surrender your ID, your telephone, and the device that you keep your personal journal entries, your corporate logins, and your homework on when you get here," are going to have to accept the fact that there will be commlinks in their facilities. |
That's exactly what they expect when you enter a data secure area. You have to change into the provided disposable clothing, surrender all electronics and jewelry, and go through a scanner. Afterwards, they hand you the equipment you need to perform your function of research or testing.
Nice discussion. Thanks for the posts, Shrike30, Kanada ten and Lebo77.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| That doesn't make sense because you're broadcasting the SIN data. It doesn't matter how many Firewalls you hide it behind it when you then send it into the air. Besides altering your own commlink SIN data could be a hardware test, not an attack against the software. |
Your SIN data gets broadcast when something queries you for it. It says that the data is protected with a rating 6 Firewall in the book... I've simply made the logic jump of assuming that the protective layer is there for a reason, rather than just for shits and giggles.
I could see it being SOP to have the SIN data literally burned (at the store where you buy the thing) into the processor hardware. Yes, that's something you could alter with a hardware check... if you've got the tools and the knowhow to do chip writing. RFID writers can be found in the hands of minimum-wage shop clerks who want to change the prices on a gallon of milk.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| That's exactly what they expect when you enter a data secure area. You have to change into the provided disposable clothing, surrender all electronics and jewelry, and go through a scanner. Afterwards, they hand you the equipment you need to perform your function of research or testing. |
Until now, the discussion has been about what you defined as "areas like universities and corporations." The inside of a data-secure lab is going to have distinctly different security protocols (yes, including RFID tags for IDs) than places like the Phys 213 classroom or the cubicle farm where all the Customer Service people answer phones, and we probably could have avoided half of this debate had it been clear originally that you were talking about secure labs, not entire university or corporate campuses.
Then I'd end up bringing mentioning children and their inability to hold on to a damn cellphone.
| QUOTE |
| RFID writers can be found in the hands of minimum-wage shop clerks who want to change the prices on a gallon of milk. |
And that doesn't give them access to the encryption levels of a SIN. Used commlinks kinda defeats the "burned into the processor", unless they just switch them, which is what I was thinking. If they do it at the store... then it's not exactly tough to find equipment.
A SIN is only a number. There is nothing to be encrypted.
And BTW, you change the price of a gallon of milk by editing the price in your database. The RFID tag on the gallon only gives a number, that identifies the gallon in the databasse.
And BTW, you change the price of a gallon of milk by editing the price in your database. The RFID tag on the gallon only gives a number, that identifies the gallon in the databasse.
I assume that when they broadcast the SIN it's encrypted to look like normal data. But, then again, a SIN isn't really that useful in terms of raw information.
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| A SIN is only a number. There is nothing to be encrypted. And BTW, you change the price of a gallon of milk by editing the price in your database. The RFID tag on the gallon only gives a number, that identifies the gallon in the databasse. |
and thats why you edit that expensive bottle of wine's rfid to read as if its a cheap soda
Think of a "SIN burner" like the old MICR machines that were used to print the strings of numbers on checks. Yes, it's basically a glorified automatic typewriter... but they weren't easy to come by, weren't sold openly on the corner, and most companies wouldn't sell one to you if you couldn't prove you represented a bank.
"Used" might not be the right word... think "refurbished." If the case is clean and there's not more than a couple of minor scrapes on the thing, they might take it on a tradein, scrap the chip, and wait to burn a new one for the next owner.
"Used" might not be the right word... think "refurbished." If the case is clean and there's not more than a couple of minor scrapes on the thing, they might take it on a tradein, scrap the chip, and wait to burn a new one for the next owner.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Then I'd end up bringing mentioning children and their inability to hold on to a damn cellphone. |
As a kid, my parents put an ID bracelet on my wrist. I hated the thing, but it wasn't exactly easy to get off, because it was smaller than my hand and I couldn't really pry it off without breaking it (and pissing off my parents). Add into something like that the really basic functions of a commlink (ID, clock, phone, "in case of emergency" information, cute games to keep the kid from hating the bracelet...) and you can keep the device small enough that it'd still fit in a bulky wristwatch style thing. If the cops see a lone kid wandering around and he's not broadcasting ID that says he lives nearby, they're going to pick him up anyway. Sure, sticking an RFID into the kid that says "hey, uh, he lives in that apartment across the street" is a good backup, but in a good neighborhood, drones are still going to be sweeping down and buzzing the kid, and cops are going to be pulling over and sweeping him for RFID's all the time to figure out where he lives... and if the kid is wandering a AA or AAA neighborhood, he either lives somewhere else (and needs to be picked up by the cops) or has parents rich enough to afford a kiddylink.
And it's annoying to have your kid come home with a "failure to carry proper ID" ticket every couple of days. Expensive, too. Not to mention the embarassment of Office Friendly (AA neighborhood, remember) bringing Junior home in the squad car. What would the neighbors think?
I don't see how any of that applies to issuing RFID cards at birth.
And even poor kids can go field tripping to Downtown.
And even poor kids can go field tripping to Downtown.
*shrug* I think part of it is your game's level of dystopia versus my game's level of dystopia. The way I run SR, the poor are pretty badly disenfranchised; no corporate "citizenship" means lousy job opportunities, no commlink makes you one step above an illegal, and using a bunch of the "workarounds" like certified credsticks makes shopowners worry that you're a criminal. Happy, well-meant social gestures (like providing an ID card for a newborn) aren't profitable, so nobody encourages it. It rains all the time, and the rain will strip the enamel off your teeth and burn out your eyes if you lean your head back to catch it on your tongue. There are no more puppies, only feral hellhounds snarling at you from the alleyways. Stuff like that.
People with money have the means to work around little hitches in society like that... by the time kids are out playing on their own, they've got a kiddylink. If CorpDaddy gets mugged on the subway downtown and his commlink is stolen, he's trying to find a 'Star officer, so he doesn't mind when a drone swoops down to ask what's going on (after all, the home office has his ID on file, and he's going to take a trip to the station house either way). If you've got social support and a reliable income (read, you're a wage-slave), life in 2070 isn't bad. If you don't, well... the money that drives society (and the citizens that can vote in it) aren't aimed at you.
The SINners have more money than the SINless, they have an easier time spending it, and they buy top-of-the-line products more often. It makes very little sense, given a market environment of cutthroat competition and low corporate morality, to have a lot of the corporate culture interested in helping the poor or great moral causes... you want your workers spending their money in your stores, not on charity efforts. And when you control most of the airwaves and almost all of the cultural influences your workers are exposed to, instilling cultural norms (like sneering at the poor, rather than wanting to help them) isn't hard. If the school your kid goes to is a corporate one, he might get to go on field trips... but if he's going to a corporate school, he's not poor.
Again, my game, not yours. Yours sounds like a brighter world.
People with money have the means to work around little hitches in society like that... by the time kids are out playing on their own, they've got a kiddylink. If CorpDaddy gets mugged on the subway downtown and his commlink is stolen, he's trying to find a 'Star officer, so he doesn't mind when a drone swoops down to ask what's going on (after all, the home office has his ID on file, and he's going to take a trip to the station house either way). If you've got social support and a reliable income (read, you're a wage-slave), life in 2070 isn't bad. If you don't, well... the money that drives society (and the citizens that can vote in it) aren't aimed at you.
The SINners have more money than the SINless, they have an easier time spending it, and they buy top-of-the-line products more often. It makes very little sense, given a market environment of cutthroat competition and low corporate morality, to have a lot of the corporate culture interested in helping the poor or great moral causes... you want your workers spending their money in your stores, not on charity efforts. And when you control most of the airwaves and almost all of the cultural influences your workers are exposed to, instilling cultural norms (like sneering at the poor, rather than wanting to help them) isn't hard. If the school your kid goes to is a corporate one, he might get to go on field trips... but if he's going to a corporate school, he's not poor.
Again, my game, not yours. Yours sounds like a brighter world.
Yeah, mine's a regular 40 Watt bulb to your Darkness Generator.
Hellhounds eat puppies <check>
Shop owners worry that you're a criminal <check>
Making governments buy spare RFID tags <check>
Acid rain from a red sky <check>
Kiddylinks <check>
Making workers pay for increased security and profitability by decreasing poverty from their own paychecks and calling it charity <check>
Hellhounds eat puppies <check>
Shop owners worry that you're a criminal <check>
Making governments buy spare RFID tags <check>
Acid rain from a red sky <check>
Kiddylinks <check>
Making workers pay for increased security and profitability by decreasing poverty from their own paychecks and calling it charity <check>
just a quick answer from my perspective on the earlier questions about why the government wouldn't issue SINs to anyone who applies... it's quite simple really.
if you have a SIN, you are eligible for all the costly programs the government has... welfare, public schooling, any possible medicare programs, etc.
if you have no SIN, they can just boot you into the corner, cover you with something (so they don't have to look at you), and pretend you're not there.
and just because they don't give you a SIN doesn't mean they aren't keeping records on you...
if you have a SIN, you are eligible for all the costly programs the government has... welfare, public schooling, any possible medicare programs, etc.
if you have no SIN, they can just boot you into the corner, cover you with something (so they don't have to look at you), and pretend you're not there.
and just because they don't give you a SIN doesn't mean they aren't keeping records on you...
Criminal SINs don't grant any of those privileges, AFAIK.
yes, well people don't generally go and ask for a criminal SIN now, do they?
and actually, criminal SINs do offer some (minimal) benefits:
1) RAW, fake SINs are good for probably no more than 10 uses or so. even the best are not terribly resistant to detection. as such, a SIN that can be used simply for purchasing items without any chance of failure is nice to have handy sometimes. of course, if you throw in a few reasonable houserules (like you don't have to verify your SIN for the local stuffer shack) then this is certainly somewhat lessened.
2) you can't be made to disappear anymore. sure, you can be thrown in prison, but since the system knows you exist, it might ask questions about you. which is more than can be said for the SINless.
so anyways, consider that it costs money to put someone in prison as compared to just beating them to within an inch of their life and leaving them on the streets (which is more or less free, and likely to get rid of them anyways) when they commit a crime, and i think you might have further reason why you might not necessarily be given a criminal SIN when the star catches up with you. in fact, IMO, most people with criminal SINs probably had a real SIN at some point, imo.
remember, while in Jail the government has to feed, clothe, and shelter you, which all costs money. they likely pay for certain medical expenses (childbirth, for one), and have to pay someone to watch you. it is much cheaper to simply make the SINless disappear than it is to give them all criminal SINs.
plus it looks good for demographics (keeps unemployment, poverty, illiteracy etc levels looking low.)
IMO, this also accounts for why orks haven't (officially)completely overrun the world (in terms of how many there are) by 2070... according to all the census information, there aren't that many of them because a whole heck of a lot of them are SINless and are simply swept under the rug.
and actually, criminal SINs do offer some (minimal) benefits:
1) RAW, fake SINs are good for probably no more than 10 uses or so. even the best are not terribly resistant to detection. as such, a SIN that can be used simply for purchasing items without any chance of failure is nice to have handy sometimes. of course, if you throw in a few reasonable houserules (like you don't have to verify your SIN for the local stuffer shack) then this is certainly somewhat lessened.
2) you can't be made to disappear anymore. sure, you can be thrown in prison, but since the system knows you exist, it might ask questions about you. which is more than can be said for the SINless.
so anyways, consider that it costs money to put someone in prison as compared to just beating them to within an inch of their life and leaving them on the streets (which is more or less free, and likely to get rid of them anyways) when they commit a crime, and i think you might have further reason why you might not necessarily be given a criminal SIN when the star catches up with you. in fact, IMO, most people with criminal SINs probably had a real SIN at some point, imo.
remember, while in Jail the government has to feed, clothe, and shelter you, which all costs money. they likely pay for certain medical expenses (childbirth, for one), and have to pay someone to watch you. it is much cheaper to simply make the SINless disappear than it is to give them all criminal SINs.
plus it looks good for demographics (keeps unemployment, poverty, illiteracy etc levels looking low.)
IMO, this also accounts for why orks haven't (officially)completely overrun the world (in terms of how many there are) by 2070... according to all the census information, there aren't that many of them because a whole heck of a lot of them are SINless and are simply swept under the rug.
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