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-X-
Wondering what other oddities you all might predict for the Matrix 2.0. Focusing on intelligent phenomenon. I'll name rather than describe the ones I have so far (as potentially still around) to avoid spoiling.

Pre-crash entities that might still be around.
Deus
Morgana
Mirage
Alice
Original Crash Virus (Assuming it isn't Alice)
Deep Resonance
Dissonance

During crash entities
Capn Chaos (Probably not though)
Pax?
Plenty of other Matrix ghosts
Jormungander
JackBNimble

Obviously not all of those are likely to be canon AI's (or whatever) in future Shadowrun products, I'm just trying to come up with a full stable that I can pick and choose from for my purposes. So what am I missing?
Dranem
You forgot that Morgan became Mageara when Renraku striped away to codes to create the knowbot that became Deus... wink.gif

Far as I can tell - though pretty old now - Fast Jack is still around.
Matrix celebrities I miss: Remi smile.gif

Last I heard there may still be 2-3 hackers left from Echo Mirage.
Ancient History
Dinnae ferget Mitch.
Witness
If Captain Chaos, Deus, Mirage, Alice et al do survive, then so might Eliohann/Cerberus. Now that's what I call a ghost in the machine.
-X-
QUOTE (Dranem)
You forgot that Morgan became Mageara when Renraku striped away to codes to create the knowbot that became Deus... wink.gif

Not sure what Morgan/Mageara is now, despite Deus's supposed 'win' in the big Network war it sure seemed as though Morgan/Mageara was recompiled and it could be that she was entirely rebuilt. So just prior to the crash she could have been Morgan again, broken Mageara or a new being entirely, Morgeara if you will. I just figured most people probably knew her as Morgan so called her that.

As for anomalies, I was thinking more along the lines of non-namegiver (Sorry for the ED reference but saying humanoid or even metahuman wouldn't cover what I mean.) beings. E-telligences if you will. Hackers, Deckers and ex-Deckers would seem to be things you'd expect to meet in the Matrix. It did seem as though Fast-Jack was around though and I had kind of forgotten about him, isn't he in his late eighties or something in 2070?

I remember reading stuff about a 'Mitch' but for the life of me I can't remember what/who he is. Can I get a hint? Or full description with pg. numbers? cool.gif
hyzmarca
Fast Jack may have been leonized. Sprites are pretty-darn anomolous, especially the ones that appear to be Free from the system failure fluff. Dr. Halberstam seems to have his hands full with new things to research at the moment.
Witness
Well it looked in System Failure (p95) like there was a possibility that Eliohann/Cerberus could have gone the same way as CC- i.e. could now be an E-telligence.

Best bet for info on Mitch (and all sorts of other goodness) would be AH's Echoes of the Crash page, EDIT: or if you have the Denver boxed set, p84 in the main book- but it's just shadowtalk rumors, nothing very concrete. What you get on AH's page is about all there is to know.

Megaera might have survived the Crash through her nodes?..
QUOTE (p52)
After Mirage enabled Roninís faction to break entirely with the Network, Ronin carved out a deal with Megaera to help restore her code and build a new entity that is both metahuman and AI. Ronin is convinced that bridging the gap between humanity and artificial intelligence is necessary to prevent monsters like Deus from being created.

I guess Deus could have maybe survived (to some extent) in the same way.
Witness
There is also, of course, what I regard to be the anomaly of all anomalies. The Big Weird One That Was Never Explained. One word: Saeletra. (DenverBS p73)
hyzmarca
Obviously it was an ancient magical being. There are countless canidates. The IEs were active around that time, as was Thias. It might be a free spirit. Some of them were active at power sites and mana spikes for centuries before the Awakening and could have learned to use computers.

My pet theory of today is that it was either Lochost or Dis. Both of their fingerprints can be found of things that lead up to the Awakening and of all the Passions they would be the most powerful leading up to that date.

As the Passion of change the Awakening is right up Locost's alley. Likewise, the Shiawase decision serves him as the Passion fo Freedom. (Paradoxiclly, it also serves Dis, the Passion of slavery).
The ubbergeek
Excuse te question, but what was those 'Passions' that I keep hearing about now and then? Idols of Elves?
-X-
I didn't even realize AH was still around. That is extremely helpful. I'd forgotten about Halb and Roxy. Wonder if Rox got Jormanganded or Nimbled.

Mitch looks like paranoia and rumor and not much else. Or at most a ghost in the machine like Alice is supposed to be.

Looks like I have more than enough heavy hitters now I just have to narrow them down some.

(Passions were the not quite gods that folks in the Earthdawn era worshipped..., sort of. Their origins were extremely unclear, or I really missed out on some key Earthdawn books.)
hyzmarca
Passions were the closest thing that there were to Gods in the Fourth World. They were worshipped by every Namegiver race except Dragonkind and were exceptionally powerful. Like Mentor Spirits take followers they took Questors but the powers granted to Questors are generally far greater than those granted by Mentors, Totems, and Idols and the requirements are generally more strict.

While Idols are abstract things which are open to interpertation the Passions are very concrete. While Idols may not exist outside of the inds of their followers, the Passions certainly do exist objectivly. While idols can, at best, give a dream to a Shamen so that he'll right some wrong for them Passions could materialize right in from you of and bitchslap you into next century with their near limitless power.

The Passions have faded from the memory of the world, however, and the only reason that they are still worship activly in the Tirs is that Immortal Elves still follow them and keep their memory alive.

The only confirmed Passion in the Sixth World of Vestrial, the Passion of Manipulation and Deceipt. Harlequin was once his Questor and he is seen talking with Harly in one book.
Witness
Although, as I've pointed out in the past...
[ Spoiler ]
-X-
QUOTE (Witness)
Although, as I've pointed out in the past...
[ Spoiler ]

That is a pretty dern interesting theory, but it sure seemed to me that
[ Spoiler ]
Witness
[ Spoiler ]
Aaron
[ Spoiler ]
Witness
QUOTE (Aaron)
[ Spoiler ]

[ Spoiler ]
-X-
[ Spoiler ]
Geekkake
In a game I'm currently running, the Crash really hosed the previous AIs. Something along the lines of a lobotomy and a grand mal seizure all at once. In a half-retarded effort to save themselves, the independent intelligences of the Matrix tried to seed copies of themselves hither and yon, but all of them were corrupt, and significantly less than the original. Each corrupted copy has taken on its own identity once the Matrix was restored, and are the "matrix spirits" referenced in SR4.

Another proto-AI has been intentionally designed (by what party I won't say, my players read and they've just learned enough) as an SK that moves about looking for those sorts of Matrix icons, and to consume them, adding relevant bits of code to its own. Currently, this proto-AI is located in an optical chip, inert, waiting for someone to connect it to the Matrix to start its hunt. The holder of the chip is the ignorant, Southern ork thug of the party, who stole it as free loot during a completely unrelated run. He has no idea what he has.

Its name is "Osiris".
Ophis
One PC in my first(still ongoing game) SR4 game is a surviving Node that houses a signifcant portion of a crippled AI from the ECS battle. His personality is an overwrite by the AI to stop the body being a complete psychotic meglomaniac (think P-fix at AI levels, with loss of previous memories.)

I laughed inside when the player gave the amnesiac character the street name Mirage.
hyzmarca
You know, it isn't impossible that Technomancers are actually nodes in a new Network.
stevebugge
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 22 2006, 01:38 PM)
You know, it isn't impossible that Technomancers are actually nodes in a new Network.

I have had that same thought myself.

[ Spoiler ]
-X-
[ Spoiler ]
Kiedo
I know you wanted info about AI and I'll get to that but I wanted to express an idea I've been tossing around since reading the SR4 book.

Ok, we all know how similar to magic being a technomancer is, alot of the same rules or at least fairly similar anyway. And then we have the hidden areas of the matrix only accessible after submersion. Now the book says nobody knows exactly where those places are, so what if they are Astral space? What if the big D didn't kill himself to fight the horrors alone. What if he had found a way to fuse magic and technology and that's were the technomancer came from. Just look at sprites, created from the matrix itself? Or spirits who found a "bridge"? Now take that a step further and take into account AI, what if the Big D has actually found a "bridge" from astral space to matrix space and he is infact one of the various AI programs that have no tracable origins. Or maybe he hasn't surfaced yet. Or what if a powerful Horror had also found a way into matrix space and was now labeled as just another AI program.

It's a bit big, and it might have been mentioned before, and it may seem a bit far fetched but I like it...
-X-
Here's a thought (bear with me on this);

Alice thinks that the original crash virus was the direct cause of her current (as of 2060) state, almost like it killed her and copied her.

Big D drops CC a mysterious encrypted file called JackBNimble that he thinks might be 'a communication from another world'.

Repeatedly we get references that the original crash virus was never eradicated, just driven into hiding.

CC was never able to break into the file. Sure maybe he just never got around to it, but it seems to me just the kind of thing an uber decker would have fun tinkering with in his off hours so he probably played with it enough to know it was some serious encryption (as would D's deckers if he let them).

So it could be that JackBNimble was the crash virus. It encrypts itself (which would probably make decrypting it pretty hard) with either a trigger to get itself out, or if it was desperate enough maybe it was counting on some code-killer entering the system it might happen to be in wreaking havok. Then once released it could go about its merry way.

Well along comes Jormangand surfing dissonance waves and voila! No more concerted effort to hunt poor lil' crashy'29. Of course the Matrix is going to hell when it happens but maybe crashy'29 doesn't care about that. So it rides ahead of Jormangand killing folks and dumping them in .zip files laughing with glee.

And if Big D suspected what it was and what it liked to do, his cute little comment about a communication from another world could have been talking about the world of the Matrix (IE, an AI), which to a dragon especially might seem like a whole other world. Alternately he could have been refering to a communication from the dead (Which the ghosts in the machines sort of are in a way). (Given how the weird NASA photo's mystery turned out this seems like just the kind of wordplay and misdirection prevalent throughout the Will. Sneaky sneaky that big flying snakey.)
HalloranElder
QUOTE (-X-)
Given how the weird NASA photo's mystery turned out this seems like just the kind of wordplay and misdirection prevalent throughout the Will. Sneaky sneaky that big flying snakey.

I beg your pardon?

Please explain? I think I missed that memo.
Witness
QUOTE (Ancient History's Echoes of the Crash)
Acquisition Technologies was a comptech corp controlled by Thomas Roxburough, and employing such future luminaries as David Gavilan and Lucien Cross.† Roxy wanted to take over a company called Gossamer Threads, which was owned in part by Dunkelzahn.† To take it over, Roxy used his hackers and programmers to create a nasty virus...possibly because Dunkelzahn may also have had a nasty precursor virus on his computer (either that, or a precursor to Gray IC).

It's never been that clear to me what AH meant by this. Roxy knew about some uber-code that the Big D owned so built his own uber-code to combat it? How did Roxy know about it though? And if he knew about it, did he base his own code on it somehow?

Either way, it looks like one or the other created, or was, the Crash Virus. And I'll bet that one or the other created, or was, proto-Mirage. Could Big D's code have been JackBNimble? If he couldn't decrypt it then presumably not, but that doesn't mean the two weren't from the same stable, so to speak.

Now here's an interesting thing, given the earlier discussion... could be nothing, pure coincidence perhaps, but notice the name of the company that Roxy wanted to take from Big D.
-X-
QUOTE (HalloranElder)
QUOTE (X- @ May 23 2006, 09:32 AM)
Given how the weird NASA photo's mystery turned out this seems like just the kind of wordplay and misdirection prevalent throughout the Will.  Sneaky sneaky that big flying snakey.

I beg your pardon?

Please explain? I think I missed that memo.

Ruh roh. You kind of caught me with my virtual pants down on that cause I really don't remember where I ran into this information but I think wherever it was it was official.

Remember the pictures of Mars that are listed in the Will? (Actually now that I'm thinking about it maybe they weren't all NASA pictures.) There was one picture, supposedly from Ares trip to Mars that had a sort of silly flying saucer in it.

Big D puts that into his will implying that there is something secretive going on. (All the pictures were super classified I think) And there was something secretive going on, but it wasn't that Ares got pictures of a cheesy UFO and was covering it up. The secret was that someone (some government I think, not another corp) had doctored the pictures before Ares got them back to protect..., um, something.

Anyway, I don't think the dragon put that in his Will because he wanted the truth to finally come out. I think he put it in his Will knowing that while the pictures were a hoax, it might get some folks to question their rock solid beliefs if even just for a moment. (I say this because from what I remember the scandal surrounding the particular picture turned out to be kind of small.)

Or I could be totally mis-remembering and that is actually a picture of a Martian spacecraft.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Witness)
QUOTE (Ancient History's Echoes of the Crash)
Acquisition Technologies was a comptech corp controlled by Thomas Roxburough, and employing such future luminaries as David Gavilan and Lucien Cross.† Roxy wanted to take over a company called Gossamer Threads, which was owned in part by Dunkelzahn.† To take it over, Roxy used his hackers and programmers to create a nasty virus...possibly because Dunkelzahn may also have had a nasty precursor virus on his computer (either that, or a precursor to Gray IC).

It's never been that clear to me what AH meant by this. Roxy knew about some uber-code that the Big D owned so built his own uber-code to combat it? How did Roxy know about it though? And if he knew about it, did he base his own code on it somehow?

Either way, it looks like one or the other created, or was, the Crash Virus. And I'll bet that one or the other created, or was, proto-Mirage. Could Big D's code have been JackBNimble? If he couldn't decrypt it then presumably not, but that doesn't mean the two weren't from the same stable, so to speak.

Now here's an interesting thing, given the earlier discussion... could be nothing, pure coincidence perhaps, but notice the name of the company that Roxy wanted to take from Big D.

Roxy gave different versions of events depending on when Alice interrogated him during the Dragonheart Saga. Hence the confusion. <shrug>
Witness
There'll always be more background reading that I feel like I have to do! *sigh*
TBRMInsanity
I think the secret to the new AIs lies in the TM. I think that the different AIs needed a way to survive and "downloaded" themselves (fully or partially) into different TMs who in the future may be able to bring back these entities. A sort of Jack in the box for the AIs.
-X-
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
I think the secret to the new AIs lies in the TM. I think that the different AIs needed a way to survive and "downloaded" themselves (fully or partially) into different TMs who in the future may be able to bring back these entities. A sort of Jack in the box for the AIs.

So basically the Network again but stored entirely in the wetware this time instead of a mix of the hardware and wetware?
Witness
We know that it was the Dissonance that used Pax (and Winternight) to bring down Matrix 1.0 (and presumably helped Pax create Jormungand).

Seems reasonable to assume that the Dissonance might also have been working behind the scenes to make sure that a new Matrix was ready to take the place of the old one. In which case the Matrix 2.0, TM weirdness and all, was more-or-less designed by/for/with the Dissonance.

Lofwyr, with Leonardo locked in his dungeons, seemed to know what was coming, and might even have had a hand in this plot too; he certainly got his reward.

My suspicion is that neither the Deep Resonance nor the Dissonance were individual entities, but rather they were facades used to steer and manipulate the Otaku. It may be that they were more like factions, each made up of multiple AIs or Idols. But if there was one main hand on the tiller of the Dissonance faction, my favourite candidate would certainly be
[ Spoiler ]
The ubbergeek
Perhaps the Deep Resonance and the Dissonance are two faces of the SAME thing? A cosmos-technical yin-yang...
Witness
Well... we're all faces of the same thing, from a certain perspective. That just isn't a very illuminating perspective! wobble.gif
-X-
Well in all fairness to the Dissonance (and I'm not ready to concede that it is really an uber organizer, my feeling is that probably neither the resonance nor the dissonance is any more self aware than toxicity/non-toxicity are self-aware in the magical realm) the vision it shot Pax's way about crashing the matrix and rebuilding it would prevent her from fading did turn out to be the case.

So three cheers for the dissonance! (But you won't see me dancing around any dissonance wells anytime soon.)
mdynna
QUOTE (Witness)
Lofwyr, with Leonardo locked in his dungeons, seemed to know what was coming, and might even have had a hand in this plot too; he certainly got his reward.

Where is/was it revealed that Lofwyr has Leonardo? Man, I seem to be missing a whole ton of meta-plot stuff. Is most of it in the novels? I would just love to read the Dragonheart trilogy but those SR novels are becoming really hard to find these days.

FanPro/Wizkids: Can you re-release those novels in PDF like the old sourcebooks?
Witness
Actually that's supposition based on shadowtalk in SF p119. Lofwyr is supposed to be jealously guarding some nova-hot elf decker called Antonio Vieri. Others on DS have guessed that this might be Leonardo by another name.

EDIT: I second the motion for pdfs of novels, but unfortunately FanPro doesn't own the novels.
-X-
QUOTE (mdynna)
QUOTE (Witness)
Lofwyr, with Leonardo locked in his dungeons, seemed to know what was coming, and might even have had a hand in this plot too; he certainly got his reward.

Where is/was it revealed that Lofwyr has Leonardo? Man, I seem to be missing a whole ton of meta-plot stuff. Is most of it in the novels? I would just love to read the Dragonheart trilogy but those SR novels are becoming really hard to find these days.

FanPro/Wizkids: Can you re-release those novels in PDF like the old sourcebooks?

Amazon seems to have the Dragonheart trilogy for an extra couple bucks per book.

With the exception of 2XS those are pretty much the best Shadowrun books. They'd make an amazing movie trilogy.
mdynna
QUOTE (Witness)
Actually that's supposition based on shadowtalk in SF p119. Lofwyr is supposed to be jealously guarding some nova-hot elf decker called Antonio Vieri. Others on DS have guessed that this might be Leonardo by another name.

EDIT: I second the motion for pdfs of novels, but unfortunately FanPro doesn't own the novels.

I wracking my brain but I can't think of which book SF is... I'm abbreviation-challenged today.
Synner
QUOTE (mdynna)
QUOTE
EDIT: I second the motion for pdfs of novels, but unfortunately FanPro doesn't own the novels.

I wracking my brain but I can't think of which book SF is... I'm abbreviation-challenged today.

That would be System Failure, although to be perfectly honest the possibility of Lofwyr having someone on ice was originally brought up in Dragons of the Sixth World - care to guess which chapter?
Ophis
My guess on Lofwyr's seeming precognition of the Crash is just that, he had the head of the seers guild as his personal lap dog. I seem to remember it coming up in the fiction in SF. Though leo probably helped in some way.
Witness
Fair point. If he wasn't complicit then I wonder how much he knew. After all he didn't seem to lift a talon to stop it. Seems like he was perfectly happy to see the Matrix 2.0 arrive in all its weird and semi-magical glory.
hobgoblin
because he is a CEO first. the crash made him able to flex some political muscle towards the european nations. and i allso think he had his talons in the companys that where about to bring out the matrix 2.0 tech...

if there is anything any company loves, its a SOTA movement they control (or atleast predict)...

it allows them to plan it so that they get continual growth...
Witness
Will old Goldensnout be counting the bottom line? Absolutely.
But I expect a Great Dragon like him is also looking beyond the quick buck, to a much bigger picture and a much longer spreadsheet.
NightHaunter
QUOTE (Witness)
Fair point. If he wasn't complicit then I wonder how much he knew. After all he didn't seem to lift a talon to stop it. Seems like he was perfectly happy to see the Matrix 2.0 arrive in all its weird and semi-magical glory.

Yeah the semi-magical thing could very well be the first step to a DNI for dragons and the like!
Witness
QUOTE (NightHaunter)
Yeah the semi-magical thing could very well be the first step to a DNI for dragons and the like!

Hmm. Leaving freaky Eliohann aside for a minute, that's a very interesting point.
Witness
A very interesting point.
mdynna
The thing that much really burn Lofwyr up is that Villiers and Novatech got "there" first in regards to the WMA. One gigantic merger later and SK now has some serious competition in Europe and America. I'm really looking forward to the new Corporations book.
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