I live in Seattle. In an effort to comply with player expectations I have to maintain a level of realism. Now, for a city that is trying to prove to the world (and especially Boeing right now) that it is worthy of big business, seeing it portrayed as a dirty, scum filled town kinda bothers me. (Emerald City anyone?)
Besides using the Thomas Guide (detailed area street map) and other maps, I use the standard names for businesses where appropriate. (Microdeck is Microsoft, Federated Boeing is just Boeing.)
What is with all the silly names for things in this game? Not that Seattle didn't have a silly named restaurant, but we only had that one... (El Pollo Loco was the name of the joint in downtown Seattle. Guess what they served?)
Stuffer Shacks
You should not eat so much!
Nukit Burgers
I think it is a bit too much. What do you guys think?
Full Version: Real Seattle vs. Canon Seattle
Hey man, don't look at me. I'm from California. I only get three real choices:
-Get kicked out by the Tir, when they invade NorCal.
-Watch as General Saito mows over all the good stuff in the central state, sans any real kind of resistance. (2 Divisions, versus the rampant amount of military bases we have? My ass.)
-Get taken over by the PCC.
Seattle gets off easy, man. Redmond and southern Puyallup are about the only places that are honestly shafted. Capitol Hill's still quite nice in 2060.
As for the company names, that's just people protecting their own asses against lawsuit. You can't print something about Microsoft summoning bug spirits at their masters' behest, or the like. They'd get mad.
Federated-Boeing is called such because it was partially bought by Federated Arms, if I recall the history.
-Get kicked out by the Tir, when they invade NorCal.
-Watch as General Saito mows over all the good stuff in the central state, sans any real kind of resistance. (2 Divisions, versus the rampant amount of military bases we have? My ass.)
-Get taken over by the PCC.
Seattle gets off easy, man. Redmond and southern Puyallup are about the only places that are honestly shafted. Capitol Hill's still quite nice in 2060.
As for the company names, that's just people protecting their own asses against lawsuit. You can't print something about Microsoft summoning bug spirits at their masters' behest, or the like. They'd get mad.
Federated-Boeing is called such because it was partially bought by Federated Arms, if I recall the history.
After a while, we decided "Stuffer Shack" was stupid, so we call it "Go-Mart" now.
I was referring to what you use in game, not what was in print. Do you as a GM use the Canon names or the Real names?
Capitol Hill is still nice?? Aztlan built a pyramid on one of Seattle's most popular PARKS!!! Well, hmmm... Nevermind. Looking at the old Seattle Sourcebook maps and it places the pyramid a little to the south of the park.
Renraku comes in and takes over an area that takes over what is a historic train station, the fire station headquarters, the Klondike Gold Rush Historical Park, The Pioneer Square Historical District (Some of the oldest buildings in the city and the main entrance into the Seattle Underground tours.), Pioneer Square Theater, The King County court building, The Public Safety building, the County Admin building, the Seattle Trust building, the Federal Office Building, the Maritime Building, the Washington State Ferry Center, Piers 48 through 55 INCLUDING both ferry terminals and other historical sites. Pier 51 (Yesler's Wharf) was the site of Seattle's first steam-powered sawmill.
Not that many of these buildings could not be relocated (the fire station headquarters for instance) but what about the historical areas?
Personally, I have moved Renraku down the shore, over a few cargo terminals. The Alaskan Way Viaduct runs just over the bottom edge of the pyramid and I-90 runs right into the parking garage right at the SE corner of the building. (When and IF it opens back up...)
Capitol Hill is still nice?? Aztlan built a pyramid on one of Seattle's most popular PARKS!!! Well, hmmm... Nevermind. Looking at the old Seattle Sourcebook maps and it places the pyramid a little to the south of the park.
Renraku comes in and takes over an area that takes over what is a historic train station, the fire station headquarters, the Klondike Gold Rush Historical Park, The Pioneer Square Historical District (Some of the oldest buildings in the city and the main entrance into the Seattle Underground tours.), Pioneer Square Theater, The King County court building, The Public Safety building, the County Admin building, the Seattle Trust building, the Federal Office Building, the Maritime Building, the Washington State Ferry Center, Piers 48 through 55 INCLUDING both ferry terminals and other historical sites. Pier 51 (Yesler's Wharf) was the site of Seattle's first steam-powered sawmill.
Not that many of these buildings could not be relocated (the fire station headquarters for instance) but what about the historical areas?
Personally, I have moved Renraku down the shore, over a few cargo terminals. The Alaskan Way Viaduct runs just over the bottom edge of the pyramid and I-90 runs right into the parking garage right at the SE corner of the building. (When and IF it opens back up...)
| QUOTE (Sahandrian) |
| After a while, we decided "Stuffer Shack" was stupid, so we call it "Go-Mart" now. |
Go-Mart? Why not use 7-11 or AM/PM? Both of those places are popular enough in my estimate to survive the next 60 years...
You do realize the fact that this is, while sci-fi slanted, fantasy right... the very antethesis of reality... add to that the fact that it's enough trouble making corporations the enemy without having real life corporations suing you for using their names...
As for the arcology... you severly underestimate the power corporate, don't you? Forget about the fact the people love the park... it's still city owned, and ethics aren't exactly at a high point in the canon continuity, now are they? Money is the universal language my friend...
As for the arcology... you severly underestimate the power corporate, don't you? Forget about the fact the people love the park... it's still city owned, and ethics aren't exactly at a high point in the canon continuity, now are they? Money is the universal language my friend...
DH, where do you live? Fantasy or not, I have a hard time accepting that the government of ANY city would allow a corporation to build on top of the city's ENTIRE historical district. Not to mention that the underground that Orks so love in this game is right under the Arcology. I have been on the tour of Underground. It's not that deep and it is not that widespead. Maybe it was dug out further by the orcs, I do not know. One thing I have noticed is that whenever a new tall building is put in, they dig a hole hundreds of feet deep to anchor it. You'll notice that Pioneer Square has no large, tall buildings. Therefore preserving the underground, which gets taken over by the Arcology. Where is the underground then? The Arcology even coverns the ground of the US West Coast's Tallest building, the Columbia Center, a.k.a. Bank of America building. The Smith tower, the 3rd tallest building in 1914 get stomped on by the Arcology as well.
Seriously, businesses around here can't even get a permit to remodel the outside of a building in Pioneer Square because of the Historical status.
Seriously, businesses around here can't even get a permit to remodel the outside of a building in Pioneer Square because of the Historical status.
| QUOTE |
| add to that the fact that it's enough trouble making corporations the enemy without having real life corporations suing you for using their names... |
Again, I did not state the FASA or Whizkids should have used the real names, I was asking what was used in your specific game sessions. Which I might add, are safe from prosecution.
| QUOTE |
| you severly underestimate the power corporate |
No I do not. I have watched Microsoft grow and build. I have watched Boeing feast and famine and ultimately decide to LEAVE Seattle! (They are looking at taking their production elsewhere now!) Starbucks has grown, nay, boomed into a huge corporation where you can find a Starbucks on ever third or fourth corner, almost literally, in downtown Seattle, and Bellevue. I watched Paul Allen (that other rich guy in Microsoft) take over the initiative to get a new baseball stadium after the people had already voted AGAINST it. Did he get his way? Can you say Safeco Field?
Look, most things are small and can be overlooked. I'll ignore somethings that are way off. i.e. Alderwood Mall being listed as being on side of a severe hill, not at the bottom of the hill where it is or Everett Mall located 1 mile to the west, in a housing developement or Aurora Village which ceased to exist before the printing of the Seattle Sourcebook.
I live here, and it is obvious that the creators of SR, and the writers of SS and New SS have never been here. The hardest part for me is trying to explain to my very demanding players that something that they KNOW to exist is suddenly not there. While I can pull rank on them, and put them in their place, why should I when I feel a little betrayed as well.
To get back to the purpose of this thread to begin with... What, if any, changes have you made to the layouts of your game world that stand apart from Canon?
Oh, and another thing I use in my games is the real radio/tv station call letters. I'll leave the Canon ones intact. I use them all.
| QUOTE |
| Federated-Boeing is called such because it was partially bought by Federated Arms, if I recall the history. |
Who is Federated Arms? Are they a real company or a SR company?
Well, at least they didn't nuke it like they did Chicago... 
Of course, if the arcology situation hasn't been resolved in your campaign that's still a possibility.
Of course, if the arcology situation hasn't been resolved in your campaign that's still a possibility.
Eeew... That's right. I had forgotten about poor Chicago. Ouch.
The Arcology issue was an easy fix. I just moved it its length south and again west onto the docks and half in the water.
The Arcology issue was an easy fix. I just moved it its length south and again west onto the docks and half in the water.
| QUOTE (Digital Heroin) |
| Forget about the fact the people love the park... it's still city owned, and ethics aren't exactly at a high point in the canon continuity, now are they? Money is the universal language my friend... |
Also consider that Seattle is supposed to be a refugee city for at least several decades in there. A park in the middle of a very high class neighborhood becomes a squatter camp then maybe the wealthy neighbors don't mind selling it to some corp.
There was also large scale rioting and (I think) an earthquake. It is quite possible that many of the historic buildings were destroyed. Even if they weren't the historical preservation laws are only 30 years old. In a dystopian future they would not last long.
Think of the level of destruction that I-5 represents. It is a two block wide swath cut all the way across the city. It may be hard to beleive today but it simply did not exist just 40 years ago. There were houses, businesses, and apartment buildings where today there is only a roaring canyon.
Go look at the viaduct, the idiots of seattle built an elevated freeway along thier entire downtown waterfront a few decades ago!
Then go look at all those overpasses next to the UW/520 bridge. They were trying to build another elevated freeway along the lake front!
Ripping up huge areas and building things that are very obviously horrific just isn't that uncommon in american cities.
As far as stuff sort of moving around by a mile or so, sure move them back if you want. Much of it could probably be explained by an area expanding, then contracting over time. Say the mall expands up the hill and the old part is eventually replaced with something else.
True. I should lighten up. I am too old to be getting worked up over a game. =)
I do remember in New Seattle where is says some parts of Down Town Seattle was so damaged they covered it up and built on top if it. And some of the surrounding counties suffered from the Great Ghost Dance, something about large portions of them being buried under tons of ash. don't know the exact details on what happened in those areas though, I do believe a large number of building where burned to the ground, Night Of Rage was the cause. So I do believe there are some good reasons why surtain areas where taken over by the corporation and other stuff. But I can't really say much because I too am from CA, more specifically So Cal.
Hehe.. I understand. Canon or not, I am just touchy about my hown town. =)
Hey, your home town gets the fragging spotlight. Be happy.
Not that I'm complaining; as far as I can tell, Boston is one of few cities that mostly came out ahead
~J
Not that I'm complaining; as far as I can tell, Boston is one of few cities that mostly came out ahead
~J
True.
When I started playing SR it was with a GM that had moved to Seattle from rural Minnesota. When he started running games with us, we amazed him with our complete knowledge of the area. We knew the hills, the valleys, cliffs on the beach, etc. We also had very detailed street maps of the three counties that compromise New Seattle. What fun that was...
When I moved to Wisconsin with my (ex) wife, I met some SR players out there. I showed up to the first game session with the three detailed county maps and a head full of born and bred Seattle... =)
When I started playing SR it was with a GM that had moved to Seattle from rural Minnesota. When he started running games with us, we amazed him with our complete knowledge of the area. We knew the hills, the valleys, cliffs on the beach, etc. We also had very detailed street maps of the three counties that compromise New Seattle. What fun that was...
When I moved to Wisconsin with my (ex) wife, I met some SR players out there. I showed up to the first game session with the three detailed county maps and a head full of born and bred Seattle... =)
As far as the expansion of the Seattle Underground goes, I believe the dwarves tunneled through that in the first place, then after the Night of Rage the orks fled down into those expanded tunnels. Dunno if they took it out of later editions, but I believe that was the canon story back in SR1 at least...
| QUOTE (Nindaru @ Oct 12 2003, 11:34 PM) |
| Renraku comes in and takes over an area that takes over what is a historic train station, the fire station headquarters, the Klondike Gold Rush Historical Park, The Pioneer Square Historical District (Some of the oldest buildings in the city and the main entrance into the Seattle Underground tours.), Pioneer Square Theater, The King County court building, The Public Safety building, the County Admin building, the Seattle Trust building, the Federal Office Building, the Maritime Building, the Washington State Ferry Center, Piers 48 through 55 INCLUDING both ferry terminals and other historical sites. Pier 51 (Yesler's Wharf) was the site of Seattle's first steam-powered sawmill. |
On behalf of Renraku’s Customer Service department I would like to forward the following.
So?
Sincerely,
Renraku Corporation
Full text can be found: Here
In other words a Megacorporation such as Renraku wouldn’t care if their proposed Building site had any historical significance all they would care about is getting enough land to build the thing as cheaply as possible.
| QUOTE (Sahandrian) |
| After a while, we decided "Stuffer Shack" was stupid, so we call it "Go-Mart" now. |
We just never stopped calling it 'Seven-Eleven'.
| QUOTE |
| In other words a Megacorporation such as Renraku wouldn’t care if their proposed Building site had any historical significance all they would care about is getting enough land to build the thing as cheaply as possible. |
My point is that the city would not allow it. Didn't I already state that? You wouldn't believe the kind of crap that this city has a history of preserving.
Another thought just hit me, so I looked up a topographical map of Seattle. Where the SS places the Arcology, the NE 1/3 of the building would have been built on a 60-80 foot incline. Yesler Way was not called Skid Row for nothing. They slid LOGS down that street. So, either the arcology is horribly lopsided, built into the ground (which would upset the foundation that anchors all the nearby building AND I-5) or built 60' higher than the ground.
But, we have seen art of the arcology as well. I assume the art is considered canon?
| QUOTE (Nindaru) |
| My point is that the city would not allow it. |
Yeah, well, you wouldn't think the government would allow extraterritoriality, either, would you?
Even the members of the corporate council heed the power of the city and federal government; as noted on pg. 26 RA:S
"...you're talking about creating a war zone in downtown Seattle! Nobody's going to stand for that, least of all the Seattle and UCAS governments."
"...you're talking about creating a war zone in downtown Seattle! Nobody's going to stand for that, least of all the Seattle and UCAS governments."
At least you can still follow the metaplot. Now I need to wait for Fuchi to put it's towers up on the south end of Manhattan for the sky line to get back to normal!
I know our SR gm's use actual tourist maps of Seattle to set up their games. They leave the normal folks thinking their city is nice and clean, but these same "normal" types would never even think of bopping over the the barrens, the way today normal people stay out of the south Bronx today. You know there are nasty things happening on the news, but that's in those places.
I know our SR gm's use actual tourist maps of Seattle to set up their games. They leave the normal folks thinking their city is nice and clean, but these same "normal" types would never even think of bopping over the the barrens, the way today normal people stay out of the south Bronx today. You know there are nasty things happening on the news, but that's in those places.
The Seattle gov't, if you read through the corporate body in NS, is a shill organization, at best. Think about it -- Seattle was on the verge of collapse. Mt. Renier exploded, leveling the southern 1/3 of the city. Redmond self-destructed with the crash of '29. the Great Ghost Dance screwed up the weather patterns, ruining most of the city's potential of harvesting resources. Waste washed up on shore (I think even an oil tanker incident occured)...
... Then CalFree broke loose. Then the Tir formed. Then.. and only then.. was the city of Seattle, retained thanks to the Treaty of Denver (yes, read through the canon on that, UCAS only has Seattle thanks to a provision in the treaty, that's why Council Island exists), given a new lease on life. Suddenly, Seattle was the UCAS's only Pacific port.. And guess who was in control of the pacific, at the time? Boom. The japanacorps. so, the big 4 were let in with the UCAS's blessing, not to mention the city's, and told to make this place viable again. Fuchi got the biggest share, with Renraku fighting tooth and nail (the ark, started in 2048 I believe, was supposed to be their way of overtaking the longtime rival). Shiwase and Yamatetsu set up in the cracks they could. Ft. Lewis revitalized to protect said port from the NAN and the Tir, as well as keep the ports alive. Boeing found itself in the center of this hotbed, as did Richard Villers, the head of Fuchi Seattle. Aztech had to jump in, as did Mitsuhishi and Saeder-Krupp, to keep themselves viable with the UCAS trade routes. The rest, as they say, is history.
Seattle wouldn't exist in 2063 if it weren't for CalFree's secession. that is why it is so radically different -- because without the corps -- and their jobs -- coming in, there wouldn't be a city. I've seen it before; I live in Peoria, where Caterpillar, Inc. is the big boy on campus. This city, and its surrounding tributary communities, will bend over backwards to do whatever the big yellow wants. Shadowrun just takes that to the extreme.
*shrugs* of course, you can always throw out the canon, ya know.
Athenor
... Then CalFree broke loose. Then the Tir formed. Then.. and only then.. was the city of Seattle, retained thanks to the Treaty of Denver (yes, read through the canon on that, UCAS only has Seattle thanks to a provision in the treaty, that's why Council Island exists), given a new lease on life. Suddenly, Seattle was the UCAS's only Pacific port.. And guess who was in control of the pacific, at the time? Boom. The japanacorps. so, the big 4 were let in with the UCAS's blessing, not to mention the city's, and told to make this place viable again. Fuchi got the biggest share, with Renraku fighting tooth and nail (the ark, started in 2048 I believe, was supposed to be their way of overtaking the longtime rival). Shiwase and Yamatetsu set up in the cracks they could. Ft. Lewis revitalized to protect said port from the NAN and the Tir, as well as keep the ports alive. Boeing found itself in the center of this hotbed, as did Richard Villers, the head of Fuchi Seattle. Aztech had to jump in, as did Mitsuhishi and Saeder-Krupp, to keep themselves viable with the UCAS trade routes. The rest, as they say, is history.
Seattle wouldn't exist in 2063 if it weren't for CalFree's secession. that is why it is so radically different -- because without the corps -- and their jobs -- coming in, there wouldn't be a city. I've seen it before; I live in Peoria, where Caterpillar, Inc. is the big boy on campus. This city, and its surrounding tributary communities, will bend over backwards to do whatever the big yellow wants. Shadowrun just takes that to the extreme.
*shrugs* of course, you can always throw out the canon, ya know.
Athenor
The only canon I have a distinct problem with I already solved by moving it south and west 8 blocks each. =)
You talk about 1/3 of Seattle going to Mt. Rainer. Um, I thought it was only Puyallup that got munched.
Out of 83.9 square miles of area in the Downtown district alone, they could only build on a strategically unsound, historic site?
The MCT site is located on questionable ground as well. Depending on which side of the street it is on, it may be sitting on the edge of a 250 foot cliff.
I think everyone here is missing who I am directing this at. It's not 'Renraku' or the 2040's Seattle Government... It's the game designers that seem to have only picked up a tourist map from their local travel agent and began to make changes to the scenery as they saw fit.
You talk about 1/3 of Seattle going to Mt. Rainer. Um, I thought it was only Puyallup that got munched.
Out of 83.9 square miles of area in the Downtown district alone, they could only build on a strategically unsound, historic site?
The MCT site is located on questionable ground as well. Depending on which side of the street it is on, it may be sitting on the edge of a 250 foot cliff.
I think everyone here is missing who I am directing this at. It's not 'Renraku' or the 2040's Seattle Government... It's the game designers that seem to have only picked up a tourist map from their local travel agent and began to make changes to the scenery as they saw fit.
Yes, do you have a problem with that? Corporation are powerful, yes, but game designers are gods. They could have made Seattle a DESERT if they'd wanted to.
Do not annoy them, lest they write you out of the game.
SR4, page 17: "...No one who has ever posted under the name Nindaru may play this game."
~J
Do not annoy them, lest they write you out of the game.
SR4, page 17: "...No one who has ever posted under the name Nindaru may play this game."
~J
| QUOTE (Nindaru) |
| I think everyone here is missing who I am directing this at. It's not 'Renraku' or the 2040's Seattle Government... It's the game designers that seem to have only picked up a tourist map from their local travel agent and began to make changes to the scenery as they saw fit. |
Given that the core of the Seattle material was designed some 14 years ago by people no longer involved with the game, and since Shadowrun is a game that values continuity -- even, occasionally, when it sucks to do so -- it's exceptionally unlikely that any official changes will "fix" Seattle. It's not your Seattle, and it's not the real Seattle; it's a fictional Seattle that diverged from the real world in the 90s.
Were Shadowrun designed today, it almost certainly would make better use of "real" Seattle when building future Seattle; the goal with recent books has to do as much research and building from real life as possible.
On Pullyup -- Okay, so I hyperbole'd the 1/3 of Seattle part. However, look how fragging big that barrens is in relation to the rest of Seattle, and then consider that up to, if not more than, half the district got leveled... and the rest collapsed. That's a big chunk taken out.
Athenor
Athenor
I live in Redmond, about 1/2 mile from where Glow City will melt down a couple decades from now. Personally I think it's wonderful that the game designers have designed the dark and gritty campaign world that is Shadowrun. Any time my players observe the placement and size of corporate facilities in Seattle, they are again reminded of the power corporations have in the Shadowrun world.
| QUOTE |
| SR4, page 17: "...No one who has ever posted under the name Nindaru may play this game." |
Bah! That's the bootleg, pre-release copy! It is inaccurate! LOL
| QUOTE (Hot Wheels) |
| At least you can still follow the metaplot. Now I need to wait for Fuchi to put it's towers up on the south end of Manhattan for the sky line to get back to normal! |
Doing a Quick search on the Shadowrun Archive’s Timeline explorer “The Towers” going down in real life didn’t change a thing…
| QUOTE |
| 2005: At 7:20 A.M. on August 12, In New York City, New York, U.S.A., the city is struck with a major earthquake that goes 5.8 on the Richter Scale. This results in over 200,000 deaths and 20 million dollars worth of damage. The only Manhattan building of any size that does not collapse is the Empire State Building. As a result of the quake the East Coast Stock Exchange is moved to Boston and the United Nations is moved to Geneva. |
So the Skyline No Longer Exists as we know it…
I’ll Dig up some topographic maps of the Seattle region I have stashed somewhere and see if I can find the source I think I’m remembering that speculates that Seattle would be a ‘Complete Loss’ after an Eruption of Mount Ranier.
| QUOTE |
| I’ll Dig up some topographic maps of the Seattle region I have stashed somewhere and see if I can find the source I think I’m remembering that speculates that Seattle would be a ‘Complete Loss’ after an Eruption of Mount Ranier. |
The topographic maps I was using are on the National Geographic website.
| QUOTE |
| it's exceptionally unlikely that any official changes will "fix" Seattle. |
Adam, I never said it should be changed in print. I just said I run it differently in my games and why. The topic of the thread was whether or not you all run things differently or do you run them canon.
| QUOTE (Nindaru) | ||
Bah! That's the bootleg, pre-release copy! It is inaccurate! LOL |
Just you wait. I'm never wrong about this sort of thing.
~J
Postscript: Note: Make friends with major FanPro staff. Learn how much they need to be bribed.
Ok, fine... I'll run my own bootleg copy with the sentence missing. LOL
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