First of all, a little hello for everyone here, I've been a lurker for quite some time now.

Here's something I thought about, and I found this amusing so I wanted to share it with you.
Have an average mage with 2 spell sustaining foci (SSF1 and SSF2), and one low-level power focus.

Step 1: Cast Analyze Device on the Power Focus, therefore getting extra dice for any roll using this focus. Have this spell sustained in SSF1.
Step 2: Do the same, but a little bit better, and have that spell sustained in SSF2.
Step 3: Goto step 1 until slowly bored into godhood.

If this is too slow or too boring, you can certainly use a few spellcasting-aiding bound spirits.
Or whatever.

A magical articfact is, by no means, a technical device.
And if the focus would be(radio-power focus as an example), then you would only enhance the device itself, like having a clearer sound. You would not enhance the magic power stored within it.
The way you describe it, well, that would be like you buy new tires for your car and suddenly it can launch rockets.
No, sorry, no abuse possibility here.

Hi, by the way!

im not sure what you are trying to get at with this but i would think that everytime you cast the spell, it would be a new spell and wouldn't stack. It would be like having the adept power of mystic armor 2 and having it casted on you at 3.. you will just have the highest force.

ps. hi as well.

UndeadPoet got the point. Cang didnt. The point is not to stack but to get better an better with evry spell because of more dice with the power focus due to the spell.

Why do i have this image of a Hacker Mystic Adept with Analyze Device.

Improved Ability: Hacking skills
Analyze Device: Commlink

Might work.

SR3 had the same issues (casting Decrease Attribute before casting Increase Attribute and then dropping the Decrease: NO!). But spells don't seem to stack. For instance, you can't cast Force 1 Armor 6 times and end up with an equivalent of a Force 6 Armor.

There are other, more munchy, combinations. Analyze Device: Gun + Smartlink + Improved Ability: (Gun) + Enhanced Physical Atribute: Agility + Being an Elf = One fine shooter.

Recasting more more successes wouldn't work very well. You would suffer diminishing returns fairly quickly due to the fact that successes are limited by the force of the spell. Sure, you could get (Magic + Power Focus)X2 successes by repeatedly overcasting at maximum force but it is unlikely that you will max out your successes before killing yourself with drain.

Cool, I guess I'll just have the army Quicken a few Force 12 Armor spells to a solider...

I don't suppose any of you see the limitation that operating a power focus is not governed by a skill, and thus the bonus die would not go toward anything?

Why would it not work on a gun or vehicle?

I just reread the spell. It states that “the spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and operation of a device or piece of equipment within range of the sense.”

This would clearly include a gun or a vehicle including a drone (provided said drone was within range, force *magic meters)

It could even apply to a power focus (cant think of a good reason why not in the RAW) which brings up the very jaggy trick of bind high force spirit of man with analyze device spell, command it to cast analyze device (power focus) on you to the best of its ability and sustain the spell as a extended service. I have found that it isn’t too difficult to get a force 8 spell with 8 successes in this way. Your power focus would naturally be relatively natural in composition if you where to attempt this so OR 1. your force 1 powerfocus is now a force 8 powerfocus for the duration of the run, net cost, 4000 nuyen and the drain on summoning and binding a force 6 spirit.

Note, once you have done this once you summon and bind the next spirit while still under the influence of the spell, so you get the power focuses bonus dice to the summoning and binding tests.

My solution, house rule analyze device doesn’t work on magical foci. Of cause I will still be casting it on the team hacker before a dangerous matrix run, device is comlink and don’t think for a moment I wont have 6 or more successes.

Edward

I didn't say the spell wouldn't work, only that any bonus dice you receive would go toward the operation of the focus' form, not the enchantment.

And what do you use to justify that. Especially when the focus has no other purpose (most of them done)

You do not operate an enchantment. No skill governs it. You can't squeeze more dice out of a focus with this spell anymore than you could use it to fire more bullets from a gun.

That said, if your power focus happens to be an enchanted gun, you would obviously get the bonus dice for operating the gun. You just wouldn't get more power foci dice from it. Or bullets.

Personally I agree that it makes little sense to apply it to magic foci, and the baleens issue is more than significant. But then it is also highly significant when cast with the hacker as a subject and his comlink as the target. +8 could be achieved quite easily buy a starting spellcaster. That’s a +50% on the best a hacker could start with, it would allow a computing and hacking unaware mage to pick up the hackers comlink and out perform him. (the hackers best is skill 6 + specialization, the mage has no skill but doesn’t take a penalty for that and has +8 for the spell)

If you take this spell to an extreme in any situation it will be broken. What are you going to do, ban the spell entirely.

Edward

As to the focus on the word operate, if you take that rout then you can’t use this spell for repairing vehicle. You don’t operate a tool, you use it, and you’re not operating the vehicle, that would be driving it.

Nether could you use it for disarming a bomb, bypassing a maglock or climbing a wall.

No matter what tools you might have to do these take (electronics and microtronics toolkits, maglock passkey and advanced climbing harness) you don’t operate any of those things. It effectively becomes useful only on vehicles, weapons and rare complex machinery.

Edward

Firstly, the commlink issue isn't too bad. As you must overcome the object resistance with your spell first, and computers are listed at threshold 4+ at best a starting magician could get 2 dice on defaulting to use a commlink. 4 for the threshold, +2 net hits beyond which are the only ones that are added as bonus dice.

As far as Edwards examples are concerned... Analyze the bomb, get bonus dice to demolitions skill, for arming, unarming, preparing or anything else you can do with a bomb. Analyze a passkey, get bonus dice for using it to bypass a maglock. Analyze the maglock and get extra dice for your electronics test to bypass it with a kit. Analyze your climbing harness, and get extra dice for climbing. Of course, the thresholds for all of these things would be 3-4+ and thusly, you probably are looking at 1-2 extra dice, if any.

Oh yeah, one more thing... definition for operate:
1 : to perform a function

Definition for use:
4 : to carry out a purpose or action by means of

Yes, they aren't the initial definitions, but they're the ones that fit the discussion we're having. For anyone interested, they're from www.m-w.com

Anyway, they're similar enough that operate and use could be interchanged in the sentence without any change of meaning. As far as the power foci arguement goes. It doesn't add to the magical abilities of the foci, just the physical properties, such as adding club skill if your power focus was a stick.

Where in the RAW dose it say that it doesn’t help with magical foci.

I don’t think it should and would house rule against it but the RAW seems to let it past.

Edward

Excdept in one sentence it always uses the word device. It wouldn't be a far jump from that to interpret it as meaning only things that have a device rating.

You can turn a power focus on and off so, obviously, the bonus bice go towards turning it on and off. This usually doesn't require a test, of course, but in situtation where the character is in distress and the GM is anal retentitive this might be useful.

Bathe of those are just trying to justify your position without really looking at the rules. The bonus applies any time you use the item, and I am using it when I cast a spell.

I think you should just admit that your house ruling in the old SR3 line that it didn’t work with magic skills. This is what I would do.

Edward

Another nasty use of the spell.

Summon force 6 spirit of man with analyze device spell,
order it to cast the spell with you as the subject and your gun as the target
with you as the subject and your smart link contacts as the target
with you as the subject and your image magnification glasses as the target
the spirit will get 6, 5 and 4 successes on average giving you +15 dice to your shooting skills as long as the spirit maintains those spells and your using all that gear.

Edward

And, looking into the book edward, just for you...

It applies to any test made using the item regardless of skill.

For example if I had analyze device on a crowbar. I would gain extra dice to the strength test to open a box, the melee test to use it as an improvised club and the thrown weapons test to use it as a improvised throwing weapon.

If I used analyze device on my comlink I would gain extra dice to computing, hacking, electronic warfare, data search and any other test made using that COM link.

You are however correct about the threshold, I missed that. Personally I would have simply ruled that you can only benefit from one analyze device spell on a single dice role.

And a focus is dual natured, a physical spell can affect something that is dual natured.

Edward

It's arguable whether it works or not (obviously, since so many people are arguing it). Easy solution: if you want that kind of power in your game then go for it, otherwise don't.

No, foci aren't dual natured, otherwise they would always have an astral presence and you wouldn't be able to walk through a ward by turning them off.

Second, the focus itself is purely astral, that is tied to a physical object. Thus, the line I quoted where it says "astral constructs". So, your spell affects the physical object the focus is tied to, but not the focus itself, since the focus is purely astral.

Physical object: physical

Focus itself: astral

A focus is dual natured when active just as a magician is dual natured when astrally percieving. The focus is purely physical when not active. The physical component of the focus is much more than just a shell for the astral componet of the focus. It is an integral part of the enchantment just as a magician's physical body is an integral part of him. If the physical component s destroyed then the focus is destroyed just as the death of the body causes the death of the magician.

The physical part of the focus is merely a shell for the astral construct to be embedded in. If it was so important, then why can a hermetic mage bind a shaman made focus, and use it without any problem? The physical component is only a shell, and its the astral component that actually affects magic in any way.

Ok smarty Tarantula, a active focus is dual natured. But you can’t get any bonus to magical tests from an inactive focus can you.

The shell is important to the focus, if it was not it wouldn’t be necessary. Physical things like oricalcum and alchemical radicals wouldn’t help to make one. And remember a hermetic can makes a power focus with a bundle of feathers easily as a more traditional pendant. For that mater a shaman can enchant a gun with no additional difficulty beyond its object resistance, which a hermetic would also have a problem with.

The shape is purely a mater of the style one wishes to portray, this is true both in and out of character, although some characters are mistaken and believe it matters.

Finally if the focus itself was exclusively an astral entity deactivating the focus would leave a focus dual natured and you would not get past the wards with it.

Edward

Thats where you get the embedding part. Just like when a mage stops perceiving, he still has an aura on the astral plane, he just can't affect anything on it. Another mage perceiving would be able to read his aura, even though the mage exists solely on the physical. You can assense an inactive focus in the same way, because its embedded in the physical object. However how it works and why it works have nothing to do with what the physical object is, or how well you can use that physical object. Thusly, it works just the same as if a mage stops perceiving or if a focus is deactivated that they can pass through a ward.