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The Souljourner
I have a character who has ambidexterity. Say she has a gun in each hand. Can she fire one as a simple action and then the other as a simple action without dividing her pool in half? Since she's not using both simultaneously, I think the answer to that would be yes. Now how about recoil modifiers? If she has a Ares Slivergun in one hand and uses her first simple action to shoot a burst (-2 recoil), would that carry over to the shot from the other gun?

-Nate

jklst14
I would say yes, you could use your first simple action to fire gun #1 then your second simple action to fire gun #2 without having to divide your pool

As for recoil, I think uncompensated recoil from your first simple action would affect your shot on your second simple action.
Glyph
This, by the way, is how you can get a semi-automatic's rate of fire for a Ruger Super Warhawk revolver.
The Souljourner
QUOTE (Glyph)
This, by the way, is how you can get a semi-automatic's rate of fire for a Ruger Super Warhawk revolver.

My thoughts exactly smile.gif She carries two Sliverguns and two Warhawks so she can pick and choose.
Kiedo
Basically doing it that way just means you have more ammo.

Since the Recoil for one gun would effect the other, do you think the RC from one would effect the other as well?

Most of the characters I make I take the ambidextrious edge, not so they can wield things akimbo(unless I'm making a gunslinger adept with twenty dice for shooting), but so they can have two different guns in each hand, such as a taser and a machine pistol.

Also something to think about is wielding a one handed melee weapon(such as a knife of club) and a pistol. That way you can use the melee weapon to parry attacks, and the pistol to take out more distant opponents.

Or just two Super Warhawks like Glyph said, that's cool too, 6P twelve rounds. The obvious drawback to this is of course reloading though, your spending two complex actions to reload both hand cannons, no matter what. Which is why a burst fire machine pistol, with high RC is better than a pair of super warhawks.

[edit] and if you load those puppies with EXEX(or APDS) you'd have 8P, AP:-2 (or DV: 6P, AP: -4), the only advantage the Super Warhawk has over this is AP, seeing as no matter what ammo you load into it thier going to have the same damage, but the warhawk is going to have an additional -2 AP.
[/edit]

For example two Yamaha Sakura Fubuki's equipped with gas vent 2, and smartlink, would net you 6P a piece, bursting and give you a total of 80 rounds, before you have to reload. Plus burst recoil is treated as SA, so the first burst is free, and the second one is -1DP, which the gas vents compensate for, not to mention the smartlink. Put those babies in the hands of a gunslinger adept with smartlink contacts, rolling 17 dice for pistol skill, and thats 9 and 10 dice for each gun, which is more than some PCs come out of chargen with.

That sounds like a character concept to me, lol
Edward
Recoil compensation from one gun will not counter recoil on the other but it is only uncompensated recoil that will affect the other gun.

For example. I have a pare of SMGs with a gas vent 3 on one of them.

If I fire a short burst from each with the gas vent one first then the recoil on the first burst will be completely compensated and I will not need to transfer the recoil t the second gun.

If I file with the uncompensated gun first then because the recoil I uncompensated it applies to the other gun as well.

This dose provide an additional advantage for using a gun in each hand.

Say machine pistols or SMGs the best recoil compensation yet available is 5 points (I think) with a single gun with 5 points of recoil compensation firing 2 long bursts your recoil penalties are -0 and -6. if you have 2 guns with 5 points of recoil compensation on each you can fire each gun once with no recoil penalties.

Squinky
I believe you can get more than 5 points of recoil comp on an smg or machine pistol.

A black scorpion starts out with (1) for the stock add gas vent 3+a shock pad and you have your 5, then add a gyromount (6) and you are 11. And don't forget cyber-implant gyros, two of those never hurt.
CONAN9845
Why would you put a gyro on a machine pistol or smg? Might as well go for the lmg at that point. wink.gif

I have an ambidextrous character firing dual Smartguns with two cyberarm gyros. I can cover all the recoil and movement penalties from both short bursts. That's a lot of bullets flying at you.
Shrike30
Unless i'm forgetting something, shock pads can only be put on rifle-sized firearms that don't have folding stocks.
Squinky
Nope, your not, my bad.

Edward
Ok, you can also get that ability buy using a hugely conspectus gyro harness (just go get an LMG) or with a cyber arm accessory that costs a large portion of the capacity of a essence unfriendly and grossly inefficient cyber arm.

I agree that this doesnít make duel welding SMGs the only or the best way to put out that kind of fire power but it is a way.

Edward
Crusher Bob
At 10Y per round bursts of EX are a whole lotta love to be sending someone's way. The warhawks do the job at only 10Y per shot as opposed to the machine pistols, which need 30Y per shot.
CrimsonHawk
This, by the way, is how you can get a semi-automatic's rate of fire for a Ruger Super Warhawk revolver.

its called a reactive triger or theres a modification in the gun mod area in the cannon companion page 75
Tarantula
Except this is 4th ed. There is no cannon companion for 4th ed.
Edward
Well yes bullets are not cheep. But consider the damage code for a ruger super warhawk firing EXEX (8P, AP -4, 10 nuyen) with a 6 round narrow burst from a machine pistol firing regular ammunition. (9P, AP 0, 6 nuyen) very close with the statistical analysis (3 points of AP = one point of damage where armor is present), the machine pistol is better against unarmored targets and gains the ability to fire wide bursts to eliminate dodge dice hitting targets you could not otherwise, as well as the possibility of spending more money on ammunition to gain a clear damage advantage, the warkawk is better against hard armored targets such as vehicles much cheaper to buy intimately.


Kiedo
Well look at the total cost per kill(TCPK). Just for the sake of arguement, we'll assume it takes two shots(or bursts) to take down your oponent.

Ruger Super Warhawk - EXEX - 10 nuyen.gif per round. [8P, AP: -4](full clip: 60){TCPK: 20}

Ingram Smartgun X - regular - 6 nuyen.gif per burst. [7P, AP: -](full clip: 64) {TCPK: 12}

Yamaha Sakura Fubuki - EXEX - 30 nuyen.gif per burst. [6P, AP: -2](full clip: 400) {TCPK: 60}

Panther XXL - Regular - 45 nuyen.gif per shot [10P, AP: -5] (full clip: 675) {TCPK: 90}

Ares Alpha - Regular - 6 nuyen.gif per burst [8P, AP: -1](full clip: 84) {TCPK: 12}
-attached grenade launcher - HE - 45 per shot [10P, AP: -2] (full clip: 450) {TCPK: 90}

So I guess it all depends on your budget, the alpha looks the best to me, if you count all the factors. Everything but the Super Warhawk and the Fubuki can be reloaded in a simple action (if you have smartlink). The warhawk no matter what takes a complex action, and the fubuki would take 4 complex actions to reload. Which makes the Alpha look pretty good right about now. And since the book says nothing about what size weapon you can wield akimbo...
Edward
The factor you forgot to consider was concealability and recoil.

In order to be reliable on the second burst the Aries Alfa needs to attached to gyro stabilization. Which is not consealable

The panther is never consealable.

In order to be reliable on the second long burst you need to dual wield the Ingramís

In order to get the second burst you need to dual wield the warhawks.

In order to dual wield effectively you need an expensive edge.

Also you got the damage code for the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki wrong, firing short tight burst with EXEX you get 8P AP -2 damage, and a good thing because 6P AP -2 wont give you a reliable take down.

Thus the most efficient way to equip yourself for a 2 shot takedown is with the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki, atleast of the weapons listed, it gives the conceivability of alight pistol (well buy RAW it does, we changed it to SMG) and while expensive to buy the gun and the ammunition it can be concealed and doesnít need to be dual wielded.

The point is if you want to run around with 2 guns at least now there is a way it can be something other than a huge drain on character points for a reduced effectives in combat.

Edward
DrowVampyre
Actually, you can get a quite reliable second burst with the Alpha without gyro. 2 points of compensation from the special chamber design, a gas vent 3, and a shock pad give it 6 points of recoil compensation, so there'd be no recoil modifiers at all on either burst as long as you kept it to short. And according to another thread that quoted a FanPro employee about recoil compensation, the full compensation applies to each action, not just each phase. So now you can fire a long burst and a short burst from the Alpha with no recoil modifier, or only -3 from a full burst.
Vaevictis
Slivergun, anyone? Especially with the "recoil compensation applies per each action" ruling.

Ares Viper Slivergun - 10 nuyen.gif per round. 300 nuyen.gif per clip.
-- 30 nuyen.gif per burst (10P,+2AP)

Comes with built in sound supressor, slap a happy gas vent III on there, and you are one happy shadowrunner.
NightHaunter
I would consider not having recoil from one hand affect the other.
Or at the least halve uncompensated recoil for the other hand.
Squinky
Where does it say Gyro stabilization is not concealable? It doesn't, unless you look back at 3rd edition. With all the advances in drones and cyberware, I picture it as a rig you wear across the upper body and your dominant arm. Concealable underneath a trench coat. That just my take on it though, even if you view it as concealable as a panther cannon, you can still change into it for running gear, like a lot of folk do.

Edward, you lost me on your last post.

1. Ares Alpha is not reliable on the secone burst? Why? Of all the guns it can take about the most recoil comp out there.

2. Ingrams need to be dual wielded to be reliable? Eh? I would only see dual wielding those if I was planning on using some major suppressive fire.

Also, someone mentioned the book didn't restrict what weapons you could dual wield. It does, pistol or smg sized only per page 141.



Shrike30
QUOTE (Squinky)
Where does it say Gyro stabilization is not concealable? It doesn't, unless you look back at 3rd edition.

The only guidelines for concealing gyromounts are referencing 3rd Ed. The size of a gyromount isn't really described in 4th ed, but there's nothing to imply that it's changed from the Aliens-style clamshell-and-waldo we all love so much.

You could use the guidelines for concealing random objects, as listed in the Concealing section of the Gear chapter, but gyromounts aren't on there (just like 99% of the stuff you might want to conceal isn't on there). Therefore, referencing 3rd Ed seems like a good idea.

Seriously, though... we've got the ability to have gyromounts BUILT INTO cyberarms, and the best they can squeeze in there is 3 points of compensation. It doesn't make much sense that they'd be able to squeeze twice as much compensation into something wrapped around your arm.

Besides, there's always that problem of when you twist at a funny angle, kick in the autofire, and the gyromount you've got wrapped around your arm compensates in a direction that breaks your elbow. Not fun.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Besides, there's always that problem of when you twist at a funny angle, kick in the autofire, and the gyromount you've got wrapped around your arm compensates in a direction that breaks your elbow. Not fun.

I'm not sure I get the physics of the scenario you just described.
Shrike30
The gyroscopes are going to exert force in a direction that counteracts the recoil impulse being applied by the firearm. The character doesn't have concious control over this and the gyroscopes are usually "spun up" all the time in combat... this is one of the reasons that the more developed ruleset for gyrostabilizers in SR3 had penalties to things like close combat, if you were trying to fight with a gyroharness on (and one of the reasons the gyroharness had a quick-release).

Now, imagine the system Squinky here described... the gyroharness is built around your arm. The two points at which it can exert any significant counteractive forces against recoil are your shoulder and your elbow (your wrist doesn't really bend vertically, so the gyromount will only be flexible side-to-side, to compensate against motion... your elbow, in contrast, will only be flexible vertically). Your character's got an MMG on that mount. Fire starts coming in from your right, and as you flatten out against the side of the building your left arm catches a ricochet. You don't want to become a bigger target, so you stay flat against the wall, curse at your non-working left arm, and extend the MMG one-handed down the street, bracing it on top of the trash can in front of you. The problem here is that your elbow is extended and locked... it can't bend any further. If you're flexible enough that you've hyperextended, the gyromount is going to lever up (making your arm go from ___ to /\, as opposed to going from ___ to \/ ) as it absorbs the recoil and keeps the gun steady. One nice meaty pop later, and you've just ripped apart all that nice connective tissue that makes your elbow happy.

Kept on the old waldo design, this can't happen... the waldo is flexible in ways your arm is not. On the cyberarm gyro design, you don't have anything built around your elbow trying to flex in directions your elbow doesn't go.
Squinky
Yeah, I could see that. But in SR3 things were a bit different, and now you can easily have a mental link to your gyro controlling it so things like that don't happen. I admit my example was nearly on the "emo samuari" extreme, but many things have changed dramatically from the last version, so I was just throwing an idea out there.

One more possible idea I thought of would be a gyro you kept hooked to your gun, and could hold the gun somewhere when you weren't using it (on your side, or across your back depending) and when you send a mental command the little arm would flop it right into your hand and be ready to go. Seems possible to me.
ronin3338
Like a Lensman...
Shrike30
SR3 (2?)'s Articulated Mounts could do that, although they also served as a firing platform. Personally, I'd be all for letting the gyromount double as a storage system.

I think Tribes said your weapons were stabilized and held onto this way (explaining how you can carry 5 weapons around and swap between them in about 2 seconds while flying).
Edward
Squinky. Without a gyro harness if your firing long bursts (as the example called for) you cant get full recoil compensation without a gyro harness or cyber arm gyro mounts. Thus your less likely to hit with the second burst.

Vaevictis
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ May 30 2006, 02:22 PM)
The gyroscopes are going to exert force in a direction that counteracts the recoil impulse being applied by the firearm.

Yeah, I understand that, but it isn't a force that I believe would result in arm breakage. The counteracting force of a gyro resisting an angle change is going to be approximately equal to the force that is causing the angle change (ever so slightly lessened due to the time difference as the force is moved from one side of the gyro to the other).

Because it's very, very close to equal, the net difference in force between one end of the gyro and the other is not going to be large enough to cause arm breakage.

Given the physics of how a gyro works, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

Now, something that *would* make sense to me is if you try to suddenly and quickly move your body on a plane that the gyro resists. It ain't the recoil that f*cks up your day, it's the fact that the gyro just won't f*cking move along that plane, but the rest of your body is.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Glyph)
This, by the way, is how you can get a semi-automatic's rate of fire for a Ruger Super Warhawk revolver.

...this is exactly why KK does it with her WHs.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
Now, something that *would* make sense to me is if you try to suddenly and quickly move your body on a plane that the gyro resists. It ain't the recoil that f*cks up your day, it's the fact that the gyro just won't f*cking move along that plane, but the rest of your body is.

That's a more likely scenario, yes.
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