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chrispasseno
The way I understand it, and I'm referring to pg 303 and pg 280 in the rule book, it works like this:

Negotiation + Charisma (10, 6 hours) Extended Test. This means that a series of rolls are used to gather the number of required successes. In this case, it would be 10. Each roll you make will add 6 hours to the time taken.

With this in mind, there can be no increase in the base 30% in that test. It would seem that this test is soully a determination of the time it takes to sell the merchandise.

Street Values play a factor in the price. The Street Value is what the item is worth on the street. You add or subtract different % according to what the market will bear. These adjustments are made to the price listed in the book.

If the characters use their fixer, then the fixer gets a cut when it's all said and done of 5% per Connection Rating.

Does that sound right?
Teulisch
well.... it depends. do you want fencing to be a few quick rolls to speed things up, or do you want to have some roleplaying involved? If you actualy haev a contact who buys and sells the goods in question (like a fence, or an arms dealer for guns), then it should be much easier just to try to sell it to that contact first. thats what their there for.

because of how vital negotiation is, i would expect some teams to pool their resources, and have the face do all the talking. why should i use my measly 2 or 3 dice, when i have a buddy who can throw a dozen dice at the same problem? At the same time, you dont want to limit someone defaulting to charisma so badly that they cant buy a newspaper.
Jaid
QUOTE (Teulisch)
well.... it depends. do you want fencing to be a few quick rolls to speed things up, or do you want to have some roleplaying involved? If you actualy haev a contact who buys and sells the goods in question (like a fence, or an arms dealer for guns), then it should be much easier just to try to sell it to that contact first. thats what their there for.

because of how vital negotiation is, i would expect some teams to pool their resources, and have the face do all the talking. why should i use my measly 2 or 3 dice, when i have a buddy who can throw a dozen dice at the same problem? At the same time, you dont want to limit someone defaulting to charisma so badly that they cant buy a newspaper.

you don't need to roll anything to get a newspaper. unless you are completely 100% SINless (not even a fake one) and have no actual cash (it does exist in SR4, it's just uncommon) or certified credsticks, you can buy most any item that is not restricted or forbidden with no difficulty... no availability check required. and certainly you can buy common items such as newspapers.
NightHaunter
In my groups case they call the face, who visits the appropriate contact and sweet talks them into selling the item needed, and maintains his contact at the same time.
Edward
I tend to assume that you canít buy anything over about 500 nuyen without a sin or using a black (or shadow) market.

If the sin is faked it will get a roll.

What annoys me is that I played a character with the siner flaw and I was not allowed to start with standard issue bouncer contacts (low light, enhancement 3, flare compensation, image magnification, so you can see clearly in a club) 100% legal, I can buy them of the shelf with no risk.

Shrike30
... why not?
Edward
Because your average consumer shop isnít set up to take anything other than standard electronic funds transfer from a sin linked account. You could pay with certified cred but they would still want your sin for warranty and liability reasons.

The 500 nuyen isnít a hard limit, it varies from shop to shop

Edward
Geekkake
QUOTE (Shrike30)
... why not?

Well, I'd go so far as to say you can't buy anything legitimately without a SIN, including that newspaper. However, I'd also say that legitimate businesses don't check that intensely into how legit the SIN is. I'm sure there are legal requirements, but I'm also sure they're reasonably weak. Here's why, using a hypothetical fraud situation from another thread:

Runner A steals banking information from Pedestrian B, whips up a quick fake SIN to match the stolen info, and goes to retailer C to purchase a new, high-class wardrobe, assuming Ped B has the credit (in "hard" nuyen or credit limit). Runner A approaches the counter with her middling commlink and fraudulent bank information. Retailer C likely has strict verification policies in place for verification. And by that, I mean strictly minimal. Runner A racks up 20,000Y in clothes from Retailer C on Ped B's credit. Retailer C keeps that 20,000Y. It's the bank or credit company that shells out the reimbursement to Ped B when he calls in about the discrepancy. Retailer C doesn't pay a 0.1Y. If, of course, the investigation shows that Ped B didn't purchase the clothes.

The megacorps and other high-power business presences no doubt have more than enough politicians in their pocket in, say, the UCAS, to push laws through for checking SIN integrity that are just enough to mollify the banks and related corps, without hurting the retailers' profits. It's a nice compromise, and everyone makes money, because the banks and credit companies write that loss off on their taxes. Meanwhile, Runner A has a new wardrobe, and Ped B pays nothing after reimbursement or a removal of that payment.

Everyone wins, except the taxpayers. I see no reason legal business would check deeply into a SIN unless a permit was involved and it's a hot-button issue, like firearms and such.
Teulisch
the problem with fake SINs, is every use requires an opposed test. while the majority or retailers will have the basic rating 1 verification device, luck will eventualy beat the law of averages in the long run.

So, is i have a rating 3 fake sin with a rating 4 permit for illegal cyberware (the best availible at chargen), then if a cop stops me, he makes two opposed checks. If the cop has a rating 3 verification system, then ive got a very good chance of being hosed.

lets say your newspaper is for sale inside the mall. the doors have cyberscanners- the more implants, the easier they are to detect. your going through those doors at least twice. and again at many of the retailers inside the mall. so if i enter at the food court, then grab a paper, and go into a department store, ive used the sin once and may have needed the permit twice. more, if you have a gaurd with a scanner wandering around making random discrete checks.

now, while you can get in and pay cash with no worries as long as you dont sport illegal gear, if you have even one illegal cybrware implangt then your at risk. that includes a smartlink, even if its not an implant. 'other gear' hits on scanners the same as alphaware.

Identity theft, while not that hard, does require one to keep alert of the current situation. most places dont care that much- heck they make a profit from it. but theres always a risk involved. how much of a risk depends on your GM
Edward
One way around the verification is to hack into the verification device (default models are wireless like everything else and probably a rating 3 or 4 system).

You locate the node, crack the encryption, jam in (it wont take more than one attempt if your good)

Now when you go to the counter and slot your ID it automatically accepts your ID as valid.

Edward
bardnoir
QUOTE (chrispasseno)


Negotiation + Charisma (10, 6 hours) Extended Test. This means that a series of rolls are used to gather the number of required successes. In this case, it would be 10. Each roll you make will add 6 hours to the time taken.

With this in mind, there can be no increase in the base 30% in that test. It would seem that this test is soully a determination of the time it takes to sell the merchandise.
[...]
Does that sound right?

I think we've managed to digress.

But yes, the above is correct. As someone pointed out, you let the Face do all the rolling, but my issue with this is that the way the rules are written you don't have a clear cut way or increasing the value of an object. So no matter how charismatic your face is or how good he is with negotiation the value of anything you're selling will simply keep decreasing. I did however notice a rule that I felt might work in reverse.
It's clear you can reduce the price of the item by 5% from the base price to get a bonus die of +1.
Could it also stand that increasing the price of the item by 5% may penalize you 1 die from the test.
This would mean that your elf face with a dice pool of 12 can try to fence an item for 50% base cost (modified) for a -4 die penalty and still manage to pull of the needed success to move the item in about a day.

This would certainly make Face characters even MORE valuable and start to bridge that gap between face and fixer and give those more advance runners the added pay they earn by gaining reputation and clout.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Edward)
I tend to assume that you can?t buy anything over about 500 nuyen without a sin or using a black (or shadow) market.

If the sin is faked it will get a roll.

What annoys me is that I played a character with the siner flaw and I was not allowed to start with standard issue bouncer contacts (low light, enhancement 3, flare compensation, image magnification, so you can see clearly in a club) 100% legal, I can buy them of the shelf with no risk.

I ffear the standard-issue bounces in your world.

Contacts with built-ins are brand new. For a starting Shadowrunner, stndard, you have a limit on availability of 12. What you were looking for is ... lemme grab the book.

Contacts (6) + Lowlight (+4) + Flare Compensation (+2), Vision Enhancement 3 (+4) and Vision Magnification (+2) ... gear with a whopping availability of 18! YIKES!

That's some SERIOUS cutting-edge technology, way beyond wat a starting runner could have. You could compare it to a Commlink with a 6 in System, Reaction, and Signal ... yeah, they exist, and the legality's fine, but trying to get something that fancy is going to take a LOT of work.

And you won't find it anywhere near Joe the Bouncer.
kzt
QUOTE (Geekkake)
It's the bank or credit company that shells out the reimbursement to Ped B when he calls in about the discrepancy. Retailer C doesn't pay a 0.1Y.

No, the vendor who sold it is at risk. The Banks never take a loss. It's like credit card fraud. The Bank only takes a loss on a cash advance, otherwise the merchant is out the money. That's also why there is a reconciliation and settlement process and why the merchant doesn't get paid instantly. Banks like it that way, and at heart, every mega (like the keiretsu they are based on) is a bank.
kzt
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
That's some SERIOUS cutting-edge technology, way beyond wat a starting runner could have. You could compare it to a Commlink with a 6 in System, Reaction, and Signal ... yeah, they exist, and the legality's fine, but trying to get something that fancy is going to take a LOT of work.

No, you custom order it online. It's perfectly legal, lots of people will be willing to take your money for it. It will just take a few days, maybe a week or three.

It's like ordering a custom differential for your car or truck. Not problem, pay one of the few vendors who make these the money and your order will get in line behind everyone else who ordered first. You want it faster, pay more.

The SR mechanics for this are a little nuts, but the idea is reasonable.
Protector152
Edward, you can get sunglasses at startup with all that for 25 nuyen.gif less then the contacts. Plus they won't be one shot.
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