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Torias (.au)
With regards to the Mossberg AM-CMDT, the shotgun that can fire Burst Fire and Full Automatic...

Can the Gas Vent fire arm accessory be added to it?

I'm guessing no, because it says "Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols, SMGs, assault riles, and machine guns. "

However, it would make the automatic shotgun the ONLY burst fire capable weapon that can't be equipped with the Gas Vent system, and I can't think of any mechanical reason why it couldn't... (the different between the automatic shotgun and a light machine gun seems to be that the shotgun is firing shot ammo and has a choke).

Anyone have any strong view points one way or another as to whether gas vent systems should work with the automatic shotgun?
thanks smile.gif
hyzmarca
There is an inclusive statement but there is no exclusive statement. It could be argued that a gas vent on a shotgun is rules legal.
Torias (.au)
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
There is an inclusive statement but there is no exclusive statement.

hmmm, that's a very good point.

The automatic shotgun certainly has a barrel, and gasses that need venting, would it not?

Hmmm, I think I feel justified in buying a gas vent system for the automatic shotgun smile.gif
Shrike30
Gas vents can also be built into wristwatches, the tires on my car, commlinks, and bags of kibble. There is an inclusive statement but there is no exclusive statement (ignoring the "Barrel Mount" for a second here).

...

Or not.

The rules outline 4 (and only 4) types of weapon that can mount gas vents. Personally, I have no issue with houseruling that you can put a gas vent onto pretty much whatever kind of weapon you want (after all, the Ares Viper and the Mossberg AM-CMDT could really benefit from them), but reading a list of "this can be put on these" in such a way that it actually means "this can be put on these, and also anything else we haven't specifically said they can't be put on" is playing word games with the RAW until it means what you want.
fool
nevermind
I didn't say a thing.
Shrike30
In SR3, you could only mount suppressors on shotguns. I have no idea if that's carried over to SR4 or not, but I hope not. Sound suppressors for shotguns do exist, and they work (although they're kinda bulky). I can't think of many good reasons you shouldn't allow them in SR.
Jaid
how did this get into sound suppressors? we're talking gas vents here, people. gas vents. the things that give you recoil compensation. not the things that make your gun quiet.
Torias (.au)
QUOTE (Shrike30)
but reading a list of "this can be put on these" in such a way that it actually means "this can be put on these, and also anything else we haven't specifically said they can't be put on" is playing word games with the RAW until it means what you want.

That's true. Oh well, a full burst fire of 10 flechette rounds would be too expensive for normal operating practice anyway... I'll see what I can do with a shockpad and a tripod wink.gif
Toptomcat
It would make logical sense if and only if slugs were used.
ShadowDragon8685
Shotshell + gas vent = pwnage.

pwning your own barrel, that is. Be worse than using a rifled barrel with shotshell.
Shrike30
I'm not sure I understand why that is. There's vented shotguns today that seem to work without any real problems.
Austere Emancipator
He probably only means muzzle brakes like the ones you see on the Barretts. Certain types of gas venting are obviously possible with shotguns firing shot. And, AFAIK, you can usually get away with firing shot from a rifled barrel as well, the only problem being that the pattern will open up like crazy, giving you an effective range of about 10 feet.
Firefly
The Auto Assault 16 Shotgun (p. 28 Arsenal) has an integral Gas Vent 2 system. I believe this is a yes.
Saint Sithney
Arsenal changed/added a lot of things.
Dr.Rockso
Mmmmm, thread cybermancy....
Shrike30
Built-in modifications/accessories are usually considered exempt from the usual requirements/limitations of things. We went through over a decade with the Ares Viper mounting a silencer it wasn't supposed to be able to have......... Oh good god this is an old thread. Woo search function!

It takes a pretty imaginative reading of the document to interpret "X can go onto A, B, C, and D (in comparison to Y and Z, which can go on everything)" as "X can go onto A, B, C, and D (and, by the way, everything else, but we figured you'd just use superior English skills to understand that)."
FriendoftheDork
I think it's fairly clear by RAW that shotguns cannot take Gas Vent as a weapon accessory. Just like pistols, even if they can be modded to fire full-auto. However there are both pistols (core book) and shotguns (Arsenal) that comes with Gas Vent. These are special cases designed for it. Could one build a shotgun or pistol with Gas Vent? Obviously, but most models don't have this capability unlike most assault rifles and SMGs etc.

On the other hand I have no problem with a house rule allowing shotguns to have gas vents, they should have sufficient barrels for it unlike pistols which might have too short barrels to mount such an accessory.

SpellBinder
A gas vent is not much more than a muzzle brake with a different name, which is used on more real world weapons than just the machine pistols, SMGs, assault rifles, and machine guns that SR4a rules allow. Simple versions are used on pistols, sniper rifles, even tank cannons and more (source).

For me, about the only issue with a gas vent for me would be using shot or flechette ammo, which I'd expect to tear some damage into a gas vent. Otherwise it'd pretty much be the holdouts that cannot have a gas vent, mostly because of their small size.
AngelisStorm
QUOTE
Jun 8 2006, 09:53 PM

WTF Firefly? Really? 4 years later?

Anyway, that aside...

Damnit! I never noticed they did that to shotguns. sleepy.gif I dislike that they did it to heavy pistols; I understand why they did it (why get a machine pistol otherwise?), but not allowing gas-venting on shotguns? Grrrr. They already stuck the poor shotguns with double recoil and bad spread rules. With flachette ammo available, there is almost no reason to use a shotgun, besides style. Only one shotgun has the optional rule to use suppressive fire with 10 rounds (instead of 20), if using flachette.

At the very least, they could add "muzzle break" to the accessories list, and make it a less effective gas-vent, if they really felt a full gas-vent was "overpowered."
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/attachmen...brake-50591.jpg
Saint Sithney
So, it's physically possible according to examples in the book and real life, but the claim is that, since it's not listed in the entry, it's somehow become physically impossible for wadding to survive a gas venting process.

If you're going to try and rationalize it, do so from a game balance perspective. And from a game balance perspective, shotguns need more help to be anywhere as useful as even a low-end AR. I'd just switch the AA-16 from having a gas vent 2 to another 2 point "special chamber design" handwave since the actual AA-12 uses a gas and spring system where the whole barrel shifts back during firing. But it also, IRL, has so little recoil that it can be fired one handed at fully automatic rates giving it an equivalent RC of 6 or 7 straight out of the box, not two.

So, if we give it 2 internal, 3 gas vent, and 1 for a solid buttstock ending in a shock pad, then it's got its RL equivalent of 6 RC out the box and is the 8,000 18F monster that it should be. Finally, it competes with ARs for damage, even though it's got 1/4th the effective range. Throw on a personalized grip and an underbarrel weight and it's ready to rock and roll like an eight grand slug-tosser should.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 12 2010, 01:13 PM) *
So, it's physically possible according to examples in the book and real life, but the claim is that, since it's not listed in the entry, it's somehow become physically impossible for wadding to survive a gas venting process.

If you're going to try and rationalize it, do so from a game balance perspective. And from a game balance perspective, shotguns need more help to be anywhere as useful as even a low-end AR. I'd just switch the AA-16 from having a gas vent 2 to another 2 point "special chamber design" handwave since the actual AA-12 uses a gas and spring system where the whole barrel shifts back during firing. But it also, IRL, has so little recoil that it can be fired one handed at fully automatic rates giving it an equivalent RC of 6 or 7 straight out of the box, not two.

So, if we give it 2 internal, 3 gas vent, and 1 for a solid buttstock ending in a shock pad, then it's got its RL equivalent of 6 RC out the box and is the 8,000 18F monster that it should be. Finally, it competes with ARs for damage, even though it's got 1/4th the effective range. Throw on a personalized grip and an underbarrel weight and it's ready to rock and roll like an eight grand slug-tosser should.



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