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Kalvan
1. Charecter Generation

The following pieces of Cyberware do not cost Resonance:

Datajack
Wired Reflexes
Smartlink (Any) (Note that if said smartlink is a component in some other piece of cyberware, that piece of cyberware still costs Resonance)
Head Computer

Bioware Does not cost Essence (and therefore Magic) until it overflows a Body Index equal to the Body stat, at the same rate it costs Essence. Note though that any bonus to Charisma due to Bioware won't function for the purposes of Conjuring, and any physical attribute boost won't stack with the Adept power Enhanced Attribute, even if the Body Index has already been exceded. But I have no problem with my players wasting Nuyen, Essence, and Power Points if they absolutely insist on it.

The Mystic Adept quality (AKA Physical Magician or Magician's Way Adept) Costs 30 Charecter Points (And yes, that counts toward the Quality limit)

Except for Shaman (But I am the final arbiter of when and if a Totem calls in this case), all magical qualities or Technomancer must be bought at charecter generation.

Any attribute or feature gained through SURGE (or only possible therethrough) costs double the normal charecter points. Any flaw gained through SURGE (Or only possible therethrough) yields only half the usual charecter points.

Cyberware and Bioware may not exceed the amount of nuyen invested in Lifestyle Costs at cherecter generation. I don't care about the charecter's backstory in this case.

Players may not start with:

Lifestyle of High or Luxury (that's a possible goal, not a start point)

Membership in a Magical Group (Ex-Membership is permitted, but that means the charecter has made Enemies)

Bound Spirits or Registered Sprites

Any Gaes on his/her Magic

Any Initiate Rating

Any direct contact in a corporation (regardless of how it came about) above the level of Minimum Wage Slave

Any Self-Made telasma, fetish(es), or foci
Teulisch
and heres how its broken:

Adept, 5 magic, ork with 8 body. by yopur rules, i can get 8 essence of bioware with no magic loss? score! instant broken mechanic. problems like this are why they dont use that onld SR2 rule for bioware anymore. Additionaly, the street sam will get cyberware at half essence loss because he has so bloody much bioware with his high body. you are letting orks and trolls get more ware than humans, so you will have fewer human sams.

every mage should get 50 bp of bioware with your rules. synaptic accelerator 2, cerebral booster, muscle toner, muscle augmentation, bone density, ect... all on top of being a mage, they get to be a sam as well! saying the bonuses dont stack for adepts wont help- they will just spend their points elsewhere for skill dice and combat reflexes. bioware is a better deal than adpet powers, but adept powers can do more things.


what if the technomancer has a smartlink in a cybereye?

you have made mystic adepts cost more than mages- but they are less powerfull. this means nobody will want to take one. (especialy when you can get a bioware street sam mage).

head computer i have not seen before. is that a unique peice of ware for your game?
Kalvan
Magic:

Adepts and Aspected Magicians need only pay 2/3 the karma of a Full Magician to Initiate. They may not take the Astral Quest or Ordeal Initiation unless guided (to some degree) by a Full Magician.

Mystic Adepts have two choices: Either they can initiate their Magician and Adept aspects seperately (paying full karma for each) or initiate both together (Paying 1.5 times the usual karma cost) It is strictly either/or, and the character must make the decision when s/he first Initiates and never look back (even if the Initiate ratings are equal later). Note the maximum extra Magic Points due to initiation is capped at the lower Initiate Rating. Also note that regardless of how that is handled, any Magical Group that is limited to Magicians or Adepts but not both will not admit or initiate any Mystic Adept ever under any circumstances.

Techonmancers may Initiate too, but are limited to Matrix Quest/Ordeal.

Magic or Resonance may be bought with karma without Initiating up to 6 after character generation (Like any physical attribute) subject only to the caps imposed by Essence Loss (stipulating the exceptions mentioned in the character Generation Section)

Cybereyes, Cyberears, and Cybersniffers will function normally when astrally projecting (as their use was bought with Essence and Magic Loss and affects the length and qually of the trip) subject to the quirky limits of sensory infromation in Astral Space. Cat's Eyes, Bat's Ears, and Dog's Noses don't. Even if the Bio Index Overflow has been met.
Kalvan
QUOTE (Teulisch)
you have made mystic adepts cost more than mages- but they are less powerfull. this means nobody will want to take one.

In several of the games I played and ran, I had to deal with a Swiss Army Magic Munchkin (A Korobokuru, to boot) nyahnyah.gif
Kalvan
Cyber/Bioware:

For every full point of Body Index a character takes, s/he recieves a radom, nonmagical, negative SURGE-type Trait (gotta love those system incompatibility side effects! sarcastic.gif )

With the exception of Matrix Ettiquette, no Social Skills (or any other Charisma Based Skill) may be defaulted on by any charecter with 1 full point or more of Essence Loss.

Any Cyberware that is removed will not restore lost Essence (and therefore lost Magic or Resonance) However if new cyberware is installed in its place, it will not cost Essence unless it already costs more Essence than the original (and only costs the difference). Any Bioware removed from a person will not restore Body Index, end SURGE-type side effects, or restore lost Essence, and any Bioware in it's place will just make things worse! devil.gif
Squinky
Wow, this is wacky. Have you even tried playing with the normal rules before fiddling with all this stuff? Many of these issues aren't even issues if you don't want to deal with them in SR4....
FanGirl
Some nitpicking:

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Mystic Adepts have two choices:  Either they can initiate their Magician and Adept aspects seperately (paying full karma for each) or initiate both together (Paying 1.5 times the usual karma cost)  It is strictly either/or, and the character must make the decision when s/he first Initiates and never look back (even if the Initiate ratings are equal later).  Note the maximum extra Magic Points due to initiation is capped at the lower Initiate Rating.  Also note that regardless of how that is handled, any Magical Group that is limited to Magicians or Adepts but not both will not admit or initiate any Mystic Adept ever under any circumstances.

This doesn't seem quite fair to me. I agree with Teulisch--they're already gimped by their diversification, so why gimp them even further?

EDIT--Just noticed your complaint about the munchkin, and have this to say: munchkins live to exploit the rules. If you make house rules punishing their exploitation of the RAW, they'll just find a way to exploit the house rules.

QUOTE
Techonmancers may Initiate too, but are limited to Matrix Quest/Ordeal.

The Initiation-equivalent for TMs is known as "Submersion." The rules for Submersion are already described on page 238 of your Bible.
Teulisch
these 'house rules' seem over-complex and complicated.

your 'surge' traits.... im guessing you added this 'random' factor as a punishment for people who took advantage of how you broke the rules for mages with bio-ware? Surge is a bad idea, specificaly the random component. It can break characters and makie them unplayable.

offhand, it seems your rule can be simplified as 'You can get bioware without losing essence, up to you body, but for every point you risk a random roll on the chart of SURGE (Stupid Ugly Revenge Game Element). for bonus points, take a few implants to protect yourself from bad results.'

your charisma no-default rule breaks a good portion of the game, by forcing non-social characters to take social skills to avoid the penalty of the 20-BP Uncouth negative quality. any player who reads that will grab uncouth, and use the BP to get the skills you forced them to take.

Overall, i find your miss-mash of rules to be quite broken. i wonder how you keep your players, if you force such problems upon them.

If you have a problem with a munchkin or rules lawyer, you cannot fix it by changing the rules. you must fix it by talking to the player.
FanGirl
That's what I said!

Anyway, your munchkin is engaging in "negative attention getting," as we call it in the biz. Throwing more rules at the munchkin is just as counterproductive as sending the class clown to the principal's office: it solves the immediate problem, but it also encourages him to continue his bad behavior in the long run. My advice is to work within the rules to show the munchkin how much his ballparking gimps him.

For an example of this, I'll return to the Swiss army knife metaphor: the blade on your SAK is great for cutting the twine on the care package your dear granny sent you, but it won't be much help when some ninja dude flips out and decides to slice you into sushi. Though I'm sure the little tweezers will make up for the difference between your 1-centimeter blade and his 2-foot katana, right?

If Mr. Munchkin insists on spreading his skills around, throw a bunch of highly-specialized opponents at him until he's forced to follow their example. Make these virtuoso baddies come so fast and furious that he won't have the luxury to put his new karma points into Basketweaving or Synchronized Swimming: he'll need every point he can get to improve his core skills.
Glyph
A generalist is not very effective in SR4, anyways. If you generalize too much, you can rapidly wind up with a character who is mediocre at everything. And even in SR3, a mystic adept was not as good as either a pure adept or a pure mage, until they reached pretty high Karma levels.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Kalvan)
The following pieces of Cyberware do not cost Resonance:

That sentence indikates a house-rule broken by design...

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Bioware Does not cost Essence (and therefore Magic) until it overflows a Body Index equal to the Body stat,

..as does this one.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Note though that any bonus to Charisma due to Bioware won't function for the purposes of Conjuring,

That's the RAW...

QUOTE (Kalvan)
and any physical attribute boost won't stack with the Adept power Enhanced Attribute

..and this as well.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
The Mystic Adept quality (AKA Physical Magician or Magician's Way Adept) Costs 30 Charecter Points

Given how much you nerf MAs later on, why not banning them outhright, if you don't want them in your game?

QUOTE (Kalvan)
(And yes, that counts toward the Quality limit)

Yes, that would be the RAW, too.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Except for Shaman (But I am the final arbiter of when and if a Totem calls in this case)

There are no shaman anymore, there are just awakend people with a Mentor Spirit and a certain kind of belief...

QUOTE (Kalvan)
all magical qualities or Technomancer must be bought at charecter generation.

..but that would be the RAW, too.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Any attribute or feature gained through SURGE (or only possible therethrough) costs double the normal charecter points.  Any flaw gained through SURGE (Or only possible therethrough) yields only half the usual charecter points.

Whatever, there aren't any rules for SURGE, yet.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Cyberware and Bioware may not exceed the amount of nuyen invested in Lifestyle Costs at cherecter generation.

That essentially means halfing the available rescources for starting streetsams, while not doing so for any other kind of character.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
I don't care about the charecter's backstory in this case.

Yeah, that will teach those pesky insects... sarcastic.gif
If you don't care about your players wishes, why GM at all?

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Lifestyle of High or Luxury (that's a possible goal, not a start point)

Uh, yeah... combined with your rule concerning ware, that means that any half-decent streetsam in your game will have about two years of a worry-free living.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Membership in a Magical Group (Ex-Membership is permitted, but that means the charecter has made Enemies)

Initation does not feature disounts anymore.
The automatism of making enemies by cancelling you membership is strange, too.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Bound Spirits or Registered Sprites

Bound entities have their own drawbacks no, so why regulate them even further?

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Any Gaes on his/her Magic

That's the RAW, too - as there are no Geasa yet.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Any Initiate Rating

Another case of 'that's the RAW'.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Any direct contact in a corporation (regardless of how it came about) above the level of Minimum Wage Slave

So it's ok to have any GD as contact - except Lofwyr?

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Any Self-Made telasma, fetish(es), or foci

RAW, as that doesn't make any difference in CG.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Adepts and Aspected Magicians need only pay 2/3 the karma of a Full Magician to Initiate.

Adept powers have already become cheaper, so no real reason for doing this.
As a sidenote, there are no Aspected Magicians anymore.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
They may not take the Astral Quest or Ordeal Initiation unless guided (to some degree) by a Full Magician.

Let's be frank - they can't... as they can't astrally project.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Mystic Adepts have two choices: Either they can initiate their Magician and Adept aspects seperately (paying full karma for each) or initiate both together (Paying 1.5 times the usual karma cost)

Unnecessary, as they only can spend the point gained for one aspect.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Techonmancers may Initiate too, but are limited to Matrix Quest/Ordeal.

That's the RAW and is called Submersion.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Magic or Resonance may be bought with karma without Initiating up to 6 after character generation (Like any physical attribute) subject only to the caps imposed by Essence Loss

..and yet another case of 'That's the RAW'.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Cybereyes, Cyberears, and Cybersniffers will function normally when astrally projecting (as their use was bought with Essence and Magic Loss and affects the length and qually of the trip) subject to the quirky limits of sensory infromation in Astral Space. Cat's Eyes, Bat's Ears, and Dog's Noses don't. Even if the Bio Index Overflow has been met.

That seems to be solution in search of a problem.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
For every full point of Body Index a character takes, s/he recieves a radom, nonmagical, negative SURGE-type Trait (gotta love those system incompatibility side effects!

Sure. Implanting ware makes you grow thorns and a third eye. sarcastic.gif

QUOTE (Kalvan)
With the exception of Matrix Ettiquette, no Social Skills (or any other Charisma Based Skill) may be defaulted on by any charecter with 1 full point or more of Essence Loss.

..so better invest in Ranged Combat as that can replace any other skill, eh? sarcastic.gif

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Any Cyberware that is removed will not restore lost Essence (and therefore lost Magic or Resonance)

Yet again - RAW.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
However if new cyberware is installed in its place, it will not cost Essence unless it already costs more Essence than the original (and only costs the difference).

Wow. A houserule that really is and is sensible, too.

QUOTE (Kalvan)
Any Bioware removed from a person will not restore Body Index, end SURGE-type side effects, or restore lost Essence, and any Bioware in it's place will just make things worse!

..why not stick to the basic rules that make ware balanced and not-silly?
Nikoli
--self removed due to personal reasons--
Edward
QUOTE

The following pieces of Cyberware do not cost Resonance:

Datajack
Wired Reflexes
Smartlink (Any) (Note that if said smartlink is a component in some other piece of cyberware, that piece of cyberware still costs Resonance)
Head Computer

the only justification for the essence loss loosing resonance was balance. But technomancers where probably underpowered.

QUOTE

Bioware Does not cost Essence (and therefore Magic) until it overflows a Body Index equal to the Body stat, at the same rate it costs Essence. Note though that any bonus to Charisma due to Bioware won't function for the purposes of Conjuring, and any physical attribute boost won't stack with the Adept power Enhanced Attribute, even if the Body Index has already been exceded. But I have no problem with my players wasting Nuyen, Essence, and Power Points if they absolutely insist on it.

already discussed, I also think it is way overpowered, indecently cyber stat boost and magic stat boost already didn’t stack and even if they did you would still get to the hard cap if they did so I don’t think it maters ether way.

QUOTE

Except for Shaman (But I am the final arbiter of when and if a Totem calls in this case), all magical qualities or Technomancer must be bought at charecter generation.


that is the RAW

QUOTE

Any attribute or feature gained through SURGE (or only possible therethrough) costs double the normal charecter points. Any flaw gained through SURGE (Or only possible therethrough) yields only half the usual charecter points.

what are the surge rules. Why should you pay more for something if you got it threw surge than if it was available as a quality, this rule looks like your discouraging surge, why not just insist that it is not available in SR4 and consider a house rule when rules are released.

QUOTE

Cyberware and Bioware may not exceed the amount of nuyen invested in Lifestyle Costs at cherecter generation. I don't care about the charecter's backstory in this case.”

I don’t see a good reason why. Ether you make a samy imposable because you can’t have more than medium lifestyle so no more than 5k in implants or you require a samy to put half his cash into pre-paid lifestyle (buy up 20 months in advance). This means samys start very week but will get better a bit quicker.



Your objection to high or luxury lifestyle is based on it being a goal. I have found those that have lived such a lifestyle care more about keeping it than somebody that never had it. I think it would be fin to play a character struggling to pay the rent on his unnecessarily lavish apartment right from the start. If you don’t like the starting cash isue just change the starting cash rules

Bound spirits. Biding a spirit is a trivial task. Why ban them when you can just get them in the first day of the campaign. Registered sprites I believe work the same.

Geas don’t exist and starting with an initiate rating is already not allowed. This is not a house rule, this is enforcing the RAW. Find out what geasa will do in SR4 before banning them at char gen

Any self made telesma, fetishes of foci. I’m assuming your noticing the lack of rules for making these things and wish to avoid setting a president “I made one before why can’t I make another now” or characters wanting a discount unfortunately this blocks the common shamanic belief that something you make yourself is better than something you have somebody else make. You can alternatively get around this problem buy saying making a focus costs the same in nuyen and karma as buying one and finding the necessary telesma is no easier than finding a focus of that type for sale. There is a slight advantage in that the things to make a focus with are not illegal and a significant disadvantage that your going to have to spend a month working on it.

This removes every balance problem of home made foci and allows you to play a character that believes you get better results with something you make yourself.

QUOTE

Adepts and Aspected Magicians need only pay 2/3 the karma of a Full Magician to Initiate. They may not take the Astral Quest or Ordeal Initiation unless guided (to some degree) by a Full Magician.


this I think is reasonable. Ofcause you will need to make house rules for accepted magicians, thay don’t seem to be in the RAW any more

QUOTE

Mystic Adepts have two choices: Either they can initiate their Magician and Adept aspects seperately (paying full karma for each) or initiate both together (Paying 1.5 times the usual karma cost) It is strictly either/or, and the character must make the decision when s/he first Initiates and never look back (even if the Initiate ratings are equal later). Note the maximum extra Magic Points due to initiation is capped at the lower Initiate Rating. Also note that regardless of how that is handled, any Magical Group that is limited to Magicians or Adepts but not both will not admit or initiate any Mystic Adept ever under any circumstances.


You make them unplayable week, pile It on nobody will be disadvantaged if you make them pay karma every time they cast a spell at this point

QUOTE

Techonmancers may Initiate too, but are limited to Matrix Quest/Ordeal.


to what end. Technomansers don’t have a magic rating. They increase there resonance threw submersion (witch is suspiciously similar to initiation)

QUOTE

Magic or Resonance may be bought with karma without Initiating up to 6 after character generation (Like any physical attribute) subject only to the caps imposed by Essence Loss (stipulating the exceptions mentioned in the character Generation Section)


already true

QUOTE

Cybereyes, Cyberears, and Cybersniffers will function normally when astrally projecting (as their use was bought with Essence and Magic Loss and affects the length and qually of the trip) subject to the quirky limits of sensory infromation in Astral Space. Cat's Eyes, Bat's Ears, and Dog's Noses don't. Even if the Bio Index Overflow has been met.


for what little good it will do you. While astraly projecting you don’t benefit from low light or thermograph vision, you don’t make perception checks (you use assessing) your not subject to penalties for glare or background noise (because you don’t use perception), all that remains is the camera and recorder, allowing those to work would be a series breach of both RAW and flavor text as there is no way to get magical phenomena recorded onto a computer.

QUOTE

For every full point of Body Index a character takes, s/he recieves a radom, nonmagical, negative SURGE-type Trait


very strange, implants made surge less likely in year of the commit. And pending seeing your surge tables I doubt it will solve the balance isue

QUOTE

With the exception of Matrix Ettiquette, no Social Skills (or any other Charisma Based Skill) may be defaulted on by any charecter with 1 full point or more of Essence Loss.


why not. Most implants are completely undetectable. And why should the penalty be negated if you take the skill. i recommend a change. A penalty or 1 or 2 dice to social tests if you have cyber wear the person your talking to finds inappropriate.

QUOTE
Any Cyberware that is removed will not restore lost Essence (and therefore lost Magic or Resonance) However if new cyberware is installed in its place, it will not cost Essence unless it already costs more Essence than the original (and only costs the difference). Any Bioware removed from a person will not restore Body Index, end SURGE-type side effects, or restore lost Essence, and any Bioware in it's place will just make things worse!

so you allow cyber wear to be modified easily but not biowear. Well I guess this helps to mitigate the grose power you gave with the ability to implant extra biowear.





this is fun

moor poorly thought out house rules for us to rip apart pleas. Can we hv your surge rules now.

Edward
ornot
OMG!!! too many
QUOTE
...slash...
I'm getting RSI from my scroll wheel!

I have to agree with the general comments though. These "house rules" do not fix anything, rather they break a great many things.

I have the biggest problems with your rules for bioware. It already costs minimal essence and provides significant boosts. Implanting a stack of bioware at no magic cost into a mage will make the wizzer grotesque!

I've not read Year of the Comet, but I understand that the SURGE changes were due to Halley's Comet rather than implants or system overload. Even if you're imposing SURGE type effects to discourage overuse of bioware (which was previously done more effectively by the essence penalty) the SURGE changes I've read about in those supplements detailing changelings seem particularly unsuitable.

IIRC bioware in SR3 was governed in part by prohibitive costs, and also by the body index of the host. In all honesty I prefer the more integrated route taken by SR4, as it prevents Street sams doubling up their number of implants with bioware, sams usually being blessed with a high body trait. I recall an SR3 sam who managed to reach a quickness of around 13 with judicious use of 'ware. On top of everything else it was nigh gamebreaking, and our GM was forced to put mages in nearly every encounter. Of course our combat mages tendency to stun ball everyone we met probably also led to that.
Squinky
Bioware in SR2 was really broken. SR3 had that whole body index thing that really was just a more complicated version of what we do now.
NightHaunter
QUOTE (Kalvan)
*snip*
Bioware Does not cost Essence (and therefore Magic) until it overflows a Body Index equal to the Body stat, at the same rate it costs Essence.
*snip*

Can I play my troll mage in your game?
You can kick the rest of the players out their character won't be needed.

This is F*****G insane. Grow a Brain!
Shrike30
... wow.

I think most of the issues I've got with your houserules have already been covered.

I dick around with things like changing the equation for how armor works, banning the occasional piece of gear, and redoing how Full Defense works a bit so that it increases player survivability... but this is just nuts.
Moon-Hawk
How does one generate a list of house rules this long without mentioning Ex-ex or flechette? smile.gif
Geekkake
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
How does one generate a list of house rules this long without mentioning Ex-ex or flechette? smile.gif

Looking at the other house rules, "emo samurai-level head trauma" seems probable.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Geekkake)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jun 12 2006, 02:19 PM)
How does one generate a list of house rules this long without mentioning Ex-ex or flechette?  smile.gif

Looking at the other house rules, "emo samurai-level head trauma" seems probable.

Actually in context of what seems to be an Action/Anime style Power Game in a quasi Shadowrun Setting Emo's game mods make a fair amount of sense, even if his is not a game I'd particularly like to play in. These on the other hand just seem like partial cherry picks of rules from previous editions combined with some time saving tricks that have lots of unintended consequences that will dramatically alter game play.
Aaron
I've always found the following three meta-rules useful when making house rules.
  • If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
  • Keep it simple, stupid (the KISS principle).
  • The great god of unintended consequences never sleeps.
mdynna
Any time you mess with Essence Loss and cyberware in SR you really better know what you are doing.
-X-
QUOTE (Aaron)
I've always found the following three meta-rules useful when making house rules.

  • If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
  • Keep it simple, stupid (the KISS principle).
  • The great god of unintended consequences never sleeps.

I'm totally swiping those! I've been using these for years and they just don't seem as good.

[*]I ain't broke, must buy dice.
[*]Keep it stupid, simple (the KISS thingie that isn't the band).
[*]Great God I'm sleepy.

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