The other evening, we had a sitation where a runner was trying to locate an individual on the second floor of a club by using clairvoyance. My understanding of that spell was limited at best and after some discussion we decided it worked in the following manor.

The spell's range is touch...which I assume means the caster. The sesnory range of the spell is magic time force, or for extend range magic times force times 10. Clairvoyance allows the caster (or the target of the caster?) to see distant scenes as if he were physically present.

What consfused me is two things. The spell is a touch spell, does this mean that the mage can cast it on another party member for example and the spell operates for that target as described? or does it mean that the target has control of the view point and the mage sees the scene from that view point?

Finally, the spell seems to indicate that you can view any scene within the "sensory range" of the spell. If for example this was 30 meters, could you view rooms or scence beyond your LOS? In the example above I allowed the mage to look into the rooms on the second floor of the building with this spell, but this in some ways seems extremely powerful. So what are you guys thoughts on this and other detection spells?

The person the spell is cast on is the one who sees. Depending on your interpertation of the rules the person the spall is cast on may have control of the point of sight or the magician may have control of it.

It isn't terribly powerful since it allows anyone to sneak up on you while you're using it.

I suspect what Bob meant by powerful was the spells capacity to extend LOS for other spells. Personally I don't think so, but I'm open to other peoples opinions or page references!

edit: I worded that badly. I meant that I didn't believe that one could establish LOS through clairvoyance, and I was surmising that Bob was concerned that it might be possible, and hence a very powerful spell. I've not got my RAW with me (I'm at work) so I am unable to check spell descriptions.

What!? Previous editions have not allowed clairvoyance for spell targeting. Please tell me that's still explicitly stated in SR4.

Line of sight doesn't exclusively mean "able to see them". It means you have to be able to draw a straight line from the magician to the target. Just the same as a video camera doesn't allow him to cast a spell, because a line to a video monitor doesn't touch a target, neither does clairvoyance.

It says explicitly in the description of the spell that it cannot be used to cast through. Last sentence of the description.

Oh, okay. ornot, you scared me there for a second. I'm okay now.
Question, though. You can see 30 meters away, check. But, if I'm in a room and there's an exterior wall 20 feet away, so I do clairvoyance to see what's on the other side, can I put my "eye" outside the wall and see all the way to the horizon, or can I only see what's within 10 feet of that exterior wall?

Well james, seeing within your line of sight but a different angle could be good. Maybe some salariman is working on his work project, but its pretty hard to read an AR display unless its sitting in front of your face... or unless your point of view is from the bridge of the salarimans nose.

...or you could live your life like a 3rd person adventure game! Maybe adopt an RTS field of view... Zergling rush!

Sorry, let me clearify. I know that you cannot target a spell using clairvoyance, what I'm specifically asking is if the point at which you are observing from has to be within LOS and within the the sensory range OR if it simply has to be within the sensory range.

The specific instance that I'm thinking of is being able to seen into a room that is completely sealed and locked down, but is within the range of the spell. It would seem to me that this should be possible, but it not specifically indicated by the spell. And the global rule is that you have to be able to see it to cast a spell on it. Hence one might conclude that you have to be able to physically see the point from which you wish to observe a scene.

The subject of the spell is yourself. This then allows you to see from any point within the range of the spell. Just a note, its a passive sense, and under the passive sense description, it says "The spellcasting test serves as a magical perception test, against an appropriate threshold determined by the gamemaster." I think thats pretty clear that if the room is sealed off, you as the gamemaster can impose a hefty threshold to be able to see inside of it.

Another note, you just get regular vision. If its dark inside that sealed room, good luck. No astral perception or vision mods either. So, if its dark, they can't see squat anyway.

Anyway, to answer your question, they can put it anywhere within the range of the spell. Line of Sight only is required for casting it, and the target of the casting is the person seeing through it. Not where you are seeing from.

Excellent, that's pretty much what I had decided, but it's good to get a second opinion.

I rule that Detection spells can go beyond LOS, up to the range of the spell. Remember that spells like Clairvoyance and Detect(Elf) cost the same abount of BP/karma as spells like Magic Fingers, Armor, Stunball, or Levitate; you should damn well get *something* out of them! In the case of Clairvoyance what it means is that you can basically place your "magic eye" anywhere within MagicxForce meters, whether you can see that spot or not, and act as if that's where your eyes are for the purpose of making the Perception test that the spell gives you.

If making more than one perception test, the rules basically imply that you can't; no matter how long you stare at a scene you'll never notice more than you did in your first round of viewing. Because that doesn't really make sense, I allow the mage to roll the same dice pool he used for the spellcasting test each time he wants to Observe in Detail. He doesn't take any extra Drain for doing so; that is just what it means to sustain a Clairvoyance spell. I figure if he wants to tie up his actions being a voyeur, more power to him.

Special notes: I also rule that natural vision augmentations, like a troll's thermovision, as well as cyberware enhancements paid for with Essence will function through Clairvoyance. This directly contradicts what it says in the rules but, hey, you paid for it, you get it. Plus all of it worked in sr3, and the spell wasn't broken back then, so I don't see what would make it so broken to allow it here. On the other hand, viewing from one side of an astral barrier to another imposes a dice pool penalty equal to the Force of the ward (see rules above for making Perception tests using a Clairvoyance spell).

It's a clunky way of doing it, but it's about the best choice available IMO.

Dosen't astral projection allow seeing into other rooms/going through walls easier than clairvoyance?

[Astral Projection] makes one vulnerable to astral attacks, and currently only magicians can project (Clairvoyance can be cast on anyone and even used when the mage is not present, as long as the spell is sustained - think guards and such). Clairvoyance can also see underground.

Also, with clairvoyance you could for example, read something on a computer screen. Or tell what color someones jacket is. You can't do that with astral projection. (Yes, I know there was a thread about reading in the astral already, go there if you want to discuss it.)

Also, Astral Projection leave you even more vulnerable. Nothing is quite so annoying as returning to your body and finding that it has been killed, moved while you were out, or claimed by supernatural squatters. Astral Projection is best done behind a high-force ward with a bound elemental guarding your body.

I just felt that the original poster thought Clairvoyance might be to powerful if you ould see through walls, and thought I could point out that astral can pretty much do that and quicker. I understand the differences, but for most things, astral will work fine.

(Phenomenally minor) harsh deal for all those metas who got their eyes replaced.

Actually, I think I worded that badly. I believe the exclusion in SR4 applies both to cyber/bio enhancement and to natural thermo / low-light.