Last time I checked it they were the favorite tools of mortal men to try and win the favors of women in bars. A little gift and some liquor.

this is my point of veiw on all of this
if itries to eat you shoot it
if it intentionally hurts other meta/humans kill the damn thing
if it dosnt do those things and it donesnt affect you personaly idt dosent matter
i would say i dont care about the mantids but seeing as i am female and human
i am slight ly conserned about the whole mantids stealing my body and killing my soul
i would not like that
in fact it scares me
that is the only reason i am concerned about this

Hold it. Mantids or any other insect spirits ain't native to the Earth, they just jump over whenever it gets awful close to the metaplanes.

I will always say and will always maintain: the only good bug is the kind I can smash with my shoe.

Right. Now that that nasty piece of business is taken care of...

Just so everyone knows, Dark Horse Security was owned through a couple shells by Hard Corps Security. That's right, Kiddies...Ares is watching you. I think it was a personal thing, though, not a corporate thing, so Ares probably ain't gonna firebomb ya all.

Now, where was I?

Here is something I think that both (or all) sides can agree on. This is merely about survival. Sure we can step back and say in a perfect world Mantid women shouldn't be persecuted, but then again metahumans shouldn't be either. And if this world were better there wouldn't be "depressed women that willingly gave themselves to the Great Mother" or whatever. The fact of the matter is that this world is a garbage heap. There is War, Death, Famine, Plague, Hatred, Greed, Lust, in other words Evil. But is this evil or merely a darker side of humanity? Could you define humanity without these traits? Could there be growth without struggle? F**k would we even be human anymore?!? Looking for a perfect world is a croc, its a lie. There is only that which is in front of me at this moment. Talking about it is fine, but its similiar to discussing fiction. Can you talk about the way things should be? Do you have the best answer for everyone, or just you? How can you know which way is correct when it has never been put into practice?

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter. Someone will always hate you. Sometimes for very good reasons and sometimes for no reason at all. Someone will always be out to get you, and there will come a time (especially in lives such as ours) when it's either you or them. To me its at that point that we are truly honest. There is no hidden motive. Whether it be a Mantid woman who wants me for her/its various reasons or a human male who has been ordered to kill me, there is a stripping away of the illusion (or delusion) of "civility". It is at this point the primal essence of darwinian evolution is brought to life. It's me or them.

So again politics are nice and yes it is not a good argument when you appeal to force (in fact it is fallacious), but you know I have never had people be more forthcoming or polite when they were at the business end of my weapon.

"Everyone Lies. Even me..." Shinriko: Little Truths

The Dead Man Walking: L

Well anyone not on the phone to the suicide hotline after that one, should do like SF suggested and be more positive. Sure there are little minds that will always hate, but the point is we should all advance towards the future together, leaving the little minds behind us growing for the greater good.

Kanda to liken wasp to Mantid for free will is a lie and you know it. Wasps are tied to their queen, they cannot refuse her, the bond between Mantids is out of respect from daughter to mother.

Speaking of the sucide hotline, you bugs out there, do bugs commit suicide?
It's a theory I've been working on, that one of the defining characteristics of metahumanity is the tendency as a race to at times seek willful self-destruction. Anyone have any info on other beings that do similarly?

~J

I'm not sure that bugs commit suicide, but I saw one once that might have wanted to.

It was a flesh-form wasp in Chicago that didn't have a good enough merge to produce wings. It appeared to me that the hive had rejected it. Last we saw it, it was trudging along with its head down, a couple clicks west of the Wrigley Dome. We didn't have the heart (or ammo) to kill it. Probably gangers got it.

- Morter

Only the lost kill themselves. Without Mother, without Family... Some go on; some search for a new Family, or for the love lost; some die.

As Kanada just said, bugs do indeed kill themselves, but only after their Queen dies.

suicide?! i think that that is indeed a defineing faktor in humanity
for only the imperfect can be foolish enough to kill themselfs
*shudder* gods only know ive been down that path before
i think any thing that would kill itsself even when it is a perfectly healthy being deserves the title of human
i
i think i need some more sake

Everything is imperfect, thus through your reasoning everything can kill itself.
In the end, existence itself is flawed, and, under some belief systems, to aspire to perfection is to commit the ultimate sin.

~J

An interesting thing to note is that those prone to suicide are often not healthy. There are all manner of neurological diseases that stem from having a biochemical imbalance in the brain. It is this chemical soup that causes emotive responses in sapient beings. Our neurological structures are the most complex on this planet, and perhaps the most prone to unbalance. We are subjected to all manner of stimuli and rapid change, our bodies and minds thrown into a mix, a whirlwind of emotion, like a grabbag of stimuli that often overwhelms us, drawing us in with its heady vapors. Those prone to suffering heightened stress levels during these rapid changes can develop psychoses as their biological factories work overtime to produce the chemicals needed to sustain a stable mental grip on reality. As the soup becomes more and more disparate, the mind begins to break down. To be suicidal is not a product of the self, but of the society we have become.

Suicide, however, is easily preventable. If the earliest stages of a depressive disorder can be identified, the suicidal aspect can usually be treated. Perhaps the best way is just to spend time with the depressed individual, keeping them talking and focused on the world around them,rather than their own feelings of worthlessness or guilt. And of course, you can always raid some lithium carbonate (yes, you can use it for unipolar depression) if you gotta.....but make sure you know someone who can administer it properly.

Back to mantids, though. Hey, my can of Raid don't discriminate, why should my shotgun? If you feel like helpin' me kill bugs, that's great, but at the end of the day, you're still a bug too, and that means you look like pest control bait to me.

>>>Bobbi was an interesting case. I mean, when a party member begins wearing heavy security armor around their comrades 24/7 —when before they could barely pick up a helmet— you have to figure that something's different. Now, I wouldn't have been too upset, except for the one time she did remove her helmet <cough> during which she pulled me aside from the team and tried some kind of hypnotic drek to bend my point of view to her own. Pretty lady or not, that was issue I wasn't going to change my mind over.

So there we are in Bugcity, trying to earn a little more flypaper like always. Now I had heard the stories form the others about the rabid dwarf Kill Crazy. But even a guy a little off his rocker deserves a chance to redeem himself. One thing I do know is that Mantis have to get their flesh-form male spirits from somewhere. And I don't know a single chummer who'd be happy to turn into a big ugly like that. On top of which, they lied about it to our faces. Mortar was right about Bobbi telling us that they turned him into one of their own, instead of the story about a wasp raid.

I'm not too fond of the idea behind possession myself. One spirit and one body is enough for my balance of energy. The one time I ran with a Loa Shaman gave me willies... hmm, come to thinik of it, that was the Shaman's name, Willie. The guy would march around after a battle and slit the throats of all survivors on the enemy's side. We had to strap a belt of concussion grenades around his middle so we could control him after a battle, if ever we wanted to question people or outright spare lives. Mantis fights a good fight, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable if they continued the fight in their own realm, wherever that is.

Heh, I wonder what Core and Ajax would have to say about all this <smirk> I'll have to find them at Reno's and tell them about this.<<<

—HumanFly

Should we trust a statement against mantid spirits from someone calling himself "human fly?"

I'm a big believer in exterminating all types of bugs but can't help but think this "person's" view is tainted.

I'm afraid I've already been ‘chosen’ by lady Sea Totem.

As long as Mantis can accept that, then I can see having an understanding with them. How do they propose to continue once their mortal enemies ‘the Bugs’ are exterminated? A small curiosity of mine.

I wonder if vampires would ever unite and fight against the bugs in order to earn themselves a better reputation. No comparison , only a curious musing.

My hope rests on the idea that we can all remain friends after such a time. Training a whole society that is based on ‘The Hunt’ out of their nature is no easy task. Maybe we can help you return to the world that you came from, to continue the good fight.

Thank you, but I can't see an end to your problems within the next 100 yrs or so.
When we have handled the infestation, we can talk again. Deal?

For an elf that is not as long to wait as it is for others, but for a young elf it is an eternity. That should give us all plenty of time to learn how to trust one another.

Which is all I've been suggesting from the start, a willingness to interact without cans of Raid or napalm.

I'll keep the Raid and Napalm on hand, thank you very much.

~J



Shanshu: Officially, no one asked you

Last time I saw charity it was being doled out by the UB.

~J

Last time I checked I hunted the UB.

Although any help is appreciated, metahumanity isn't that helpless. We did have the containment wall built and secured before even you could get out of Chicago. And we have problem solvers hard at work eliminating budding bug colonies in other cities.

On our own I think it may have taken a hundred years, but with Mantis and Spider help it might drastically be shortened. (I have yet to even hear a word about Spider, aside from an effective gang in Seattle and a lone shaman in the Redmond Barrens.)

>>> While the containment wall does appear to protect the rest of North America, I don't know if the bugs dislike it. After all, it also appears to keep a million humans within their easy reach. I'd like to assense the aura of the one who ordered the wall built.

The thought of Mantis and Spider give me the willies.

-- Morter

Lets be honest, Shadowrunners are predators while most of the rest of metahumanity are sheep. We are at war with the bugs and we have to deal with this like a war. Mantis spirits kill lots of bugs and very few metahumans. I will always be able to deal with the loss of a few in order to save the entire race. Casualties are inevitable in a war.

I'm not saying that at some point that we will not deal with the Mantids as enemies. If a mantis spirit attacks me or one of those under my protection then I will most certainly destroy it; but going out of the way to take out something that kills my enemies is insane in my eyes.

Almost everyone who has been active in the Shadows for any decent length of time has killed a fellow metahuman, it is almost completely unavoidable. Should we stop killing the bugs and go after each other instead? If you said no, then perhaps you should think about holding off on directly attacking the Mantids until we have dealt with the big picture.

--Syndyne

See here now! Those 40 metahumans in the bar last month were... well... the rigger enjoyed their job too much. That's all I have to say.

Why are metahumans fighting bugs? They are evil corrupters that all decent beings should oppose!

As far as I can tell, the metahumans are fighting bugs because the bugs are using metahumans as nesting grounds and sources of food.

~J

As far as I knew were doing well against the bugs even before you Mantids were fully on the scene. Humankind, or Metahumankind if you need that distinction, is inovative and capable. We have our dark corners and hideious undercurrents, but we have our shinning lights as well. Mantids were here with the rest of thier bug breatheren during the last cycle of magic, and we survived them. Undoubtably we will survive them again. And ten thousand years from now when the next cycle of magic is upon us, we will survive them yet again. The bugs will have to go home sometime, and with them the Mantids. There are worse things that hunt us than bugs, and Almost all of them live within our souls anyways. Get used to it, there are scarier things in store for us.

Oh, yes. Metahumans have no need of Mantis, nor Spider. They have no intention of aiding you.

Metahumans fight everything they don't understand, everything they cannot control, and all those who would be more than them.

I keep saying I have never said I'm a Mantid. Merely that I understand that not everything alien is evil. You can say you don't need the Mantids to fight bugs, but isn't it better to have allies than to bare the brunt of the fighting yourself?

The Germans and Russians were able to agree that they wanted Poland, after all.

~J

So they finally agreed that this was a mixed IC and OOC discussion? -shrug- I always thought that as long as it was a discussion it didn't matter whether it was IC or not.

It certainly gets a lot more interesting when it is!

No one doubts that the Mantids fight bugs and can do it better than we can, the issue is is their help worth the cost? Are we allies in the war or just a convient cannon fodder when they aren'ty trying to talk us into their lairs.

I'm not saying that I believe that everything Mantis spirits do is right. Based on previous experiences I have had with them I do not trust them. However, I will not attack them without provocation until, at some nebulous point in the future, we are done hunting the other bugs. Should that time ever come I will revisit this matter.

And if they "revisit" you before then? If we don't take a stand when we can pick the time and place, you may not have the will to take the stand when they pick the time and place.