OK in the modern world bugs and bug spirits are hunted down, they are monstrocities which twist and deform people's bodies, possessing and torturing their minds. Who wouldn't oppose these horrible things? THeir agents, the hsamans that steal and break people are the vilest form of humanity, selling out their own speciaies, binding them in slavery, but why should mantids be so treated? Mantids hunt down these bugs. Indeed conflicts between mantids and metahumanity only when metahumanity comes between mantids and insects.

Unlike insect spirits which take bodies and possess them without the permission of the owners, resulting in twisted nightmare forms as the human souls fight to resist being forced out, mantids only take women who are willing. Women who are dispairing of life here and wish to move on to the next level of existance and willingly give up their shells for spirits who will work to better protect humanity from the invaders. The fact that mantid spirits form "good merges" that is they are indistinguishable from humans, shows that they are welcomed into their body.

Insect spirit's nests are full of horror as they pursue their own private plans, turning neighborhoods into dead zones, but mantids fit flawlessly into society, acting as contributing members, often so well their origins are not recognized.

Since these merges between spirit and material beings is desired by both sides and entered into willingly, why are Mantids persecuted side by side with the nightmarish invaders? Shouldn't Mantids be recognized as just another awakened form of life.

[disclaimer voice] Those advocating the merging with Mantid spirits may, in fact, be Mantids themselves. [/disclaimer voice]

Because nobody wants to get close enough to distinguish the two?

-Siege

But now it has been explained-shambling nightmare- unwilling host to an invading insect.
Nice happy, smiling woman, who has shaken off the depression that kept her down, who can go to lunch with you- a joyful willing merger.

Ahem.

A happy, smiling slave is no more convincing than a frowning, depressed one.

If one (or more) of the afore-mentioned mantids would care to subject themselves to a thorough and proper examination to lend some weight to your claims, spiffy.

You'll forgive me if I don't trust the axe murderer who tells me he has my best interests at heart. I like my heart where it is just fine, thanks.

-Siege

The point is mantids are not slaves. The risk with examination is the unfair persecution of anyone who puts her hands up or is even suspected of being a "bug" gets treated like the horrors.

I'm merely suggesting opening a dialogue to prove otherwise. And it's not murder since the mantids only take the willing.
evidence from other cases show that a "good merge" is a sign of someone willing.

Either that, or they, like many cults, prey on those with low self-esteem and depression.

~J

Well, they need insect spirits in order to survive. For that reason, they will husband and harbour the dangerous insect spirits. You can't count on them to combat the problem of insect spirits - they like that problem!

Of course they were depressed. Healthy happy people, or ones responding to mundane aid don't need the help. The mantids were helping women who otherwise might be suicides.

Im under the impression that mantids are somewhat alike toxic avengers;
You could say they're fighting the good fight, but there's a lot of collaterals.
Also, the mantid isn't really trying to rid the world of bug spirits; It's simply following it's nature. They're the decease that kill off an animal overpopulation.

Not to mention the fact that in order to multiply, and like all good bugs they WILL multiply, they consume the male of the species.

That pretty much means the any unsuspecting, UNWILLING, male is gonna get his head gnawed off.

"Food" for thought.

The key phrase there is unwilling males. By all reports the males who go to the mantids are quite willing.

How do you know they only take the willing? It's not been proven that good merges are the result of willing subjects. Since taking a host annhailates the original being's self, all ya got is the big bug's word. How many of them are gonna say, "Oh, hell no! This host's spirit fought me tooth and nail, but I prevailed in the end, killing it and taking this body for my own use?" Also, they're discriminatory...they seem to have a problem with men! Not only are they parasitic invaders, they're sexist bigots, too! However...

This does not mean we can't use them! Think of it...a security corporation that uses good merge mantids, an influence spell and a cortex bomb keeping them in line! Yessir, that'd be a money-maker. And any that resist the influence spell or won't tow the company line...well, we just pack 'em up in a crate and send 'em to Chicago! And, since they are on corporate property, corporate law applies. We can declare 'em dangerous criminals and just destroy 'em leagally! Yessir, mantid spirits and their shamans are a resource to be used, just like anything else.

>Hmmmmmm. Sounds good.
-KnightFire


{edit} unrelated commed: Hot Wheels: May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your body for getting that song in your sig stuck in my head from The Muppet Movie! I can't shake it lose now! aaaaaH! The pAIN!!!!!!{/edit}

You know the myth female mantids eat their mates?They only do this on camera,as the bugs are left in a tank. After and before mating mantids kill each for food.

But in nature,they mate,and the male walks off.In the tanks,the male can't walk off,and so the female sees it as food.But it only has to do with mating so far the two mantids are forced to stay close.

On a lesser note,one out of ten times it is the female that is eaten.

As the spirit mantids....Well I have killed my share,and frankly they are not human..And shouldn't be treated as such.They are beasts,nothing more ,nothing less.

What song is that?

Research at MITT has show that in cases where the bug over whealms the host by pure power, what results is something like a giant, nothing human at all.

In nature the only time the male is devoured during sex is if he leans forward into the female's hunting zone. As long as he stays out of the area where she instinctively strikes, he can mate repeatedly.

As for sexist, That is just the argument of someone who cannot stand to see the door swing the other way. How much in our world is sexist? Look at Japanese culture where it is far more rampant, where the male dominates and grants to women what power they have. In the corporate world, the most advanced for of metahuman cultural development the term "Glass ceiling" was still in use only a few decades ago. It is said to exist in organized crime so much so that a female boss in the mafia or Yakuza are not worthy and it can still be seen in such so called modern corps such as Lone Star. While not desireable culturally, for you to pick on that among one group and not protest it among others is just not reasonable.

I'd like to see that research.

Do these giants result from _all_ forced attempts?

Could a mantid with enough skill force a merge and still retain the human appearance?

You'll forgive me if I remain cynical until all possible doubts are resolved. Skepticism is a survival trait in this line of work.

-Siege

My professors haven't mentioned any such study, and I'd think that that would be of great interest to the Magical Theory community, or at least the Insect Spirits and the Modern World course.

~J

So, if they merged with a ghoul, wouldn't that be one of the weirdest "selective diets" around?

Could a Wendigo eat a Mantid, since it's a cannibal?

Heh.

PS: I had a ghoul that tried to search out a Mantid to learn the secrets of absorbing spirit powers. They never told him nothing.

Perhaps my story will help you understand.

By the time we killed Bobbi, we understood where her extra power came from. Before, she had been powerful, yes. Being a Fox Shapeshifter she was not welcomed elsewhere, but with her shamanic powers and amazing regeneration our shadowrun team happily took her in.

Even early on, I sensed that some twisted motivations might be guiding her, but who would listen to me if I said someone else was deranged. Perhaps I was more sensitive to her condition because of all the treatments I had received. Maybe others noticed too, as one day I saw Cujo hide some silver bullets in his belt pouch. Whatever was twisted inside her before Chicago was nothing like what came later.

When we snuck into Chicago that winter, we wore chem suits with respirators over our parkas to protect ourselves from the Vitas plague. We looked like fools to the locals. After 3 days, we traded the suits, in exchange for a gallon of gas, to someone who wanted to swim Lake Michigan. The reality of the Containment Zone hadn't reached the outside world. Our mission was a bust from the moment we arrived. Our activities soon turned to survival.

Our problems with Bobbi started the day of the Bus Ride. That was the day she cut off her fingers to feed two ghouls who were on the armored bus. "Snacks" she called them. "Lady Fingers". That afternoon we met 3 more of the beautiful fighting women we had encountered earlier. Kill Crazy, our manic dwarf, insisted we accept their offer to "party" at their hideout. The rest of us insisted we get back to the Wrigley Dome to recuperate and boost their defenses. In the end, Kill Crazy and Bobbi stayed with the women warriors. "Amazons" I thought. Little did I know. The decision that day to split the team was probably where things started going wrong.

When we returned a week later, Kill Crazy was gone. Lost to a flying Wasp raid. They’d recovered his armor, and the damage was clearly Wasp. Bobbi was different, but we didn’t realize it yet. Over the next week, we were more effective than we’d ever been before. The loss of Kill Crazy, even though he was our heavy weapons expert, went almost unnoticed. Bobbi had always been our tactician, but it was almost uncanny how she positioned the team when some hive or nest reacted to our intrusion on their territory. Twice her Amazon friends showed up on the backside of the raiders and hammered home the fact that we humans were going to survive. At least, that’s how it seemed at the time.

A week later, Bobbi was caught in an explosion that should have torn her apart. Her parka was shredded, but she came out of it with only singed hair. This wasn’t like getting shot and regenerating, she simply wasn’t hurt. Looking back, this was our first clue. Over time there were many more, and slowly we came to realize the truth.

In the final showdown, she admitted inviting a Mantis spirit into her. Ajax wanted to off her right there. Core felt we should kill Mantids only after all the other bugs were gone. While they were arguing nose to nose, Sitnam shot Bobbi, followed almost immediately with silver bullets coming from Cujo. As she tried to crawl away she yelled out that she’d taken Kill Crazy. It wasn’t the Wasp. She’d claimed he was now more useful than he’d ever been as a dwarf.

Cujo and Sitnam kept pumping bullets into her till it was clear nothing was coming back. No one ever asked me what I thought.

Core wants to find the Amazons and work with them. Ajax wants to find the Amazons and kill them. We have never recovered the trust we had before Bobbi.

-- Morter

No, I'm willing to let the Mantid walk into a secured lab with enough security to give a Great Dragon pause.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but instead of saying I am willing to compromise my safety, it would be more accurate to say I will refrain from wanton eradication if given sufficient proof.

-Siege

No dialogue with Mantis, she deceives.
Trust not the evil lies from her mandibles.
Wez shall not fall prey by her hands.
Protect you from her, only we can.
She seeks only to devour you.
Hunting us to stop us spreading Truth.
Once we arez gone she will turn on you.
Trust us. We will protect and shelter you
in the arms of The Mother.

@,@

The main issue I have is the whole destruction of the host's self. How do we know that the person wasn't living a happy life and just had a weak will? A powerful mantid might be able to overwhelm a less than average human will.

Here's a thought that just came to my head...mantids tend to have human or sometimes elf hosts, usually of greater than average physical attractiveness. Do you think they're vain or do they just have an understanding of the advantages of beauty on metahuman psychology?

Here's another question for ya. Can a good merge mantid use it's host to breed? If so, what are the kids? Normal metahumans? Automatic merges? There's a can of worms for ya!

Good questions, great mikey. Wonderful things for a player to ponder. A GM simply decides the answers as he/she desires for their campaign.

i think the deciding factor on whether mantids, as a race, are 'friend' or 'foe' is, "what are they going to do if/when the bug problem gets under control?" in the meantime, my view--none of my characters have had the opportunity to form an opinion--is that the enemy of my enemy is somebody you don't shoot until they stop being useful.

Say, is a good merge visible in a persons astral signature or are they completely hidden within the body's aura?

i think a good merge gets something akin to Masking. might be wrong.

in ooc terms, that question was answered in the original UB boxed set--one of the encounters involves raiding the shop/home of a woman who brought to term a baby fathered by a fly flesh form (awesome alliteration, eh?). the baby was described as being literally half-fly, half-human (obviously, the fly half was human-sized, not fly-sized).

oh, the aura thing--on 5+ success on the investment test, the resultant good merge gains the power of aura masking. it says that this ability is largely unused in worker spirits, though i can't imagine why this would be so--the Skill power makes worker spirits vastly more useful than an equal-force soldier good merge.

Personally I would rule that the child would be a normal metahuman since the host body needs a spirit to create a merge. If a flehform is a parent of a child the child would probably be "normal", at least physically.

Magic isn't locked to someones DNA and a merge is not an actual merging of two DNA strands, rather a Spirit trying to shape the physical shell into its own design. When the child is born there will be no spirit inside it, but there is no stopping a spirit from chosing it as its host.

thing is, jopp, it's obvious that a low-success flesh form undergoes a change in it's genetic structure. those insectoid features aren't a shamanic mask or other magical effect--they're a biological component of the flesh form's body; they're made of cells that reproduce just like any other, they take nutrients from the bloodstream, the bleed when you prick 'em. therefore, the question is whether or not a flesh form with less than 5+ successes (at which point it could be argued that the host undergoes no genetic change) is genetically compatible with a human, for breeding purposes. the canon answer, as per the UB boxed set, is that, yes, there is some level of compatibility. it doesn't state where the line between compatible and non is drawn, though; personally, i'd draw it at 4 successes exactly.

My daughters are fine, thank you very much.
Well behaved around adults, helping kids in trouble and in general not creating more mayhem than other kids. They do seem to have a devastating effect on the opposite sex, but that was to be expected.
My husband is in fine health as well.

Does that answer your questions??

ROFLOL!

Since it has been well documented that Mantid females have the ability to generate exztreeme desire in metahuman males, it can be validly questioned as to whether or not the males they takes are "willing." Also althought htey claim to only take females who are willing, I know from personal experience that they don't like to hear "no" if a female they want is not interested in their offer. They can be persistant until you give an answer they can't ignore.

Sweetie, every female of a certain age know that any male of a certain age can and will be led by their hormones and a touch of the feminine pheromone. Don't come and say to me that you, dear Fox, haven't played that game with devastating effect?!

Mantis only take those who are willing and She only claims those that want her with body and soul.
How does the other Totems get their shamans? By Recognition. They recognize something of themselves in their meta/human shamans.
So does Mantis.
Most shamans of any creed are nutters anyway. Just look at the Bandit who "borrows" anything or Crow that steals anything shiny or Parrot that wants to be in the limelight all the time...
One way or the other, all shamans are twisted...
My Path are no more right nor wrong than any other shaman's.
My Totem are no more right nor wrong than yours, Fox.
We battle the same evil, we fight the same fight and yet you renounce me and mine???
Tsk tsk, I would have thought better of you, dear...

Urk. Your name takes on a whole new level of scary.

-Siege

Wow this explains something that happened to my team recently. We were coming of a run, and had just been chased into the barrens by a corporate team. Our rigger managed to out fox them and we hid the van under the old 205 exit. None of us relished the idea of hoofing it through Halloweener territory but those are the breaks. So there we were, about 6 blocks from a safe house and we here some serious drek going down. Guns, explosives the whole bit. Being the stealth guy I go out and take a look.

It took me a few minutes to figure out what was happening, but here it is. A group of gangers decided to raid this house. When they got there they opened the door using a second hand rocket launcher. Real clever I know. But what came spilling out was un-fraggin believable. The most gorgeous women I have ever seen in my life. All fighting hand to hand with the gangers, tearing these guys apart. These were trolls and orcs mind you. And these girls just ripped them to pieces. Most of em were half naked and they were shrugging off bullets like rain drops. My first urge was to run out and help the girls, but something in the back of my head told me to keep down. At the end of the slaughter the girls piled the bodies up and lit em on fire and walked back into the house like nothing had happened. The strangest thing was though, the fire lit them all up, and on the wall there shadows weren't human. Needless to say I got the hell out of there.

I wake up in the middle of the night and I want to go back there. I feel like I have to. The only reason I think I have been able to resist is my adept training. But let me tell you, I am not so sure it wouldn't be worth it.

Now, the ego, and fear tramps come running in.Don't get me wrong,these women can be scary.It is just that they are still,rather mortal.When,I call on the powers that help me,I can go toe-to-toe with these people.

I broke one over my knee.It was hard fight, but I am not your normal spell-slinger.Them, gods, or demons like me.

Now,as do I find them evil.Yes,I do.Like the people who work of S-k. Does this mean,I will kill them on site?Nope..It does mean,I will not hesitate to kill them, if they in the way of my goals.And like I said,my gifts,make it a fair fight,my toys, and skills put them in an up hill battle.

Different-Days

Well, I've never fought any kind of bug spirit. Us mundanes tend to avoid that kinda thing. Apparently I have a natural talent at fighting spirits, though. Shocked the heck out of or team's mage when I was trapped into fighting an earth elemental. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide and no aid coming any time soon, so I said, "What the frag," and threw down! Nasty fight and I didn't come out unscathed, but the mage told me after I "killed" it that I was lucky. I prefer to think I was good. So, if I have to tango with a bug, mantis or otherwise, I'm confident I can give as good as I get. Anyone here ever had to rumble with a bug? Sing out!

Sorry Mikey -- I've seen footage of what happened to mundanes tangling with bugs.

Put a shaman's number in my speed dial after that sec cam video.

-Siege

The subtitle of this thread is wrong. Your guides are both very distinct and very similar. Oak, Dog, Ant, Mantid, each is the complete truth of its place.

Not like the foolish guides of the past who were broken and frail half-truths.

I have fought a bug. I am mundane, or so the tests tell me; I'm fine with that, as I spend most of my time in the Matrix, anyway.
We were hitting an abandoned parking garage that apparently had a connection to an underground datastore inside; I'm not sure if that's true or not. The place had a bug hive underneath, we found out later, but all we saw was corpses. Then, inside, there was a woman.
She was eating something, someone; I couldn't see what. Wendy went first, she was our streetsam, walked up towards the other woman. She got near, and then the other woman suddenly was around and ripping her throat out. Bob was blasting away with his shotgun, and I was fumbling for my pistol, when the thing leapt on me.
I'm not sure what happened, but I just... pushed, and the thing cried out in pain. I did it again, and again, and it finally collapsed and died. Rusty, our mage, finally got back from tangling with a leftover Ant that'd tried to jump us from behind, gave one look at the thing, and ordered us to pull out. We did, and quick. It was too late for Wendy, but the rest of us are alive somehow.
Rusty said the woman was a Mantid. I don't know about Mantids, but I know I wasn't a bug, and I know she killed one of ours and tried to kill me.
So you'll excuse me if I don't buy your assertion that Mantids shouldn't be hunted.

~J

It's very simple really. Mantis spirits are Parasites. They come out of the Astral nether regions, find some bimbo and devour her soul and steal the Body.
Now the only people i've ever heard say that the woman was depressed, suicidal, brain dead and gullible, were the mantis spirits themselves speaking through the host body.
Dont believe them, they just want more host bodies so they can summon more of their kind through. It's perfectly logical really, they want to propogate their species, but at the cost of our metaspecies.
At the end of they day, they dont feel like we do, they are just another type of Bug. We are an exploitable resource they can use and nothing more. Any bug which tell you otherise is obviously lying, just look at Chicago and what the Universal Brotherhood did! Thats the work of the Bugs. If she says she only there to kill and eat other bugs, whats the rest of the story? metahumans who have been infested by a parasitic Bug spirit are gone, their souls are corrupted, their minds are erased and the spirit controls them like a puppet, nothing with a benign agenda is so hostile and debasing, so utterly ruthlessly crushing what it meant for their host to be human.
Not even Dragons are that bad.
Well, maybe some are, but hey, what ya gonna do? Least ya can kill bugs!