Me and a player have gotten into a discussion about bio-rejection and essence loss.
If a player with bio-rejection gets a piece of cyber implanted (say datajack) and then has to remove it because of the flaw, does he still lose essence?
My take on it:
Compare this to a normal person who implants a jack and the two days later removes it. This person would take essence according to normal rules and there's nothing he can do about it. I figure it's the same for the guy with bio-rejection. The only difference being that he didn't chose to take the cyber out, but his body forced him. He still had it in him and connected to the brain for a while (and used it), but then because of the pain and all had to remove it.
The other side:
Bio-rejection work kind of like regeneration. This when it drives the cyber out it also restores any kind of essence loss.
What do you say?
Full Version: Bio-rejection and essence loss
One way to look at it is that your essence is to strong for the cyber to invade it. In this case, I'd say you don't loose the essence.
Since there is no such thing as restoring essence loss, basically ever... I would say if he got it put in, surgery done, then he found out he was rejecting it them bam, that essence is gone forever.
It's a tossup, really. You don't loose essence for simply having meat cut out. Nor do you loose essence for simply having something implanted. It's the integration of a machine with the human body that causes the trouble. If the device is rejected immediately and never gets "integrated" then I'd rule that no essence is lost.
Any legit clinic should be able to screen for biorejection beforehand, anyway.
Any legit clinic should be able to screen for biorejection beforehand, anyway.
Yes.
But the guys doing the surgery didn't care, and the jack was used for at least a whole day before being removed.
But the guys doing the surgery didn't care, and the jack was used for at least a whole day before being removed.
If the device integrated with the guy's body to the point that he could use it, then yeah, essence was definitely lost.
Gone. Left a note: "Hate you, gone back to Momma" on the door.
~J
~J
Unless you're playing loose with the rules, I'd say that the character would lose essence if the datajack was able to be used.
You mistake them. They weren't misspelling lose, they were saying that essence is like a pack of wild dogs, and that cyberware just sets them loose. Therefore, they loose the essence.
~J
~J
Since bio-rejection implies that the body rejects the implants outright, I don't think surgery could proceed far enough for any essence loss to occur. I would think that they would get maybe half an hour (or less) into the surgery before the character started having some seriously bad reactions and they were forced to rip the stuff right back out of him.
| QUOTE (Bölverk) |
| Since bio-rejection implies that the body rejects the implants outright, I don't think surgery could proceed far enough for any essence loss to occur. I would think that they would get maybe half an hour (or less) into the surgery before the character started having some seriously bad reactions and they were forced to rip the stuff right back out of him. |
Exactly. If he has Biorejection, then the cyberware can't be installed in the first place, so there is no essence lost. If the rules were broke to have this thing installed for a day, then the rules should be broke again to give him the essence back.
On another note, I sometimes use a house rule that if someone with Biorejection has either Beta or Delta grade cyber installed in them, it takes. Betaware and Deltaware meld with the body so well that it bypasses the flaw. Trick is, they pay twice the standard essence cost if its beta, and full essence if it is delta. What do you guys think?
But I see bio-rejection as working sort of what can happen today with transplants. They can be fine for a while and then the body rejects it. It doesn't say anywhere in the description of the flaw about how fast the rejection occurs. Now granted he won't have it in for a year and then the body decides to throw it out... I'm talking about a day or two here.
Grey, I think if they wanted cyberware then they shouldn't have taken that flaw. I'm all for ironclad consequences.
All the rules say is that it doesn't work. How it doesn't work is up to the GM. You can play it the way you are, but you'd be just as justified having the character die under the knife during surgery.
Either way, if it somehow gets in there, it causes essence loss, which is permanent.
~J
[edit] I personally would never rule that any character could not have cyberware implanted. However, if in my game a player took this... depending on the character, I'd probably either kill them outright or permanently drop a point of Body every hour, with the first point being lost immediately.
Aren't I a nice guy?
Either way, if it somehow gets in there, it causes essence loss, which is permanent.
~J
[edit] I personally would never rule that any character could not have cyberware implanted. However, if in my game a player took this... depending on the character, I'd probably either kill them outright or permanently drop a point of Body every hour, with the first point being lost immediately.
Aren't I a nice guy?
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Grey, I think if they wanted cyberware then they shouldn't have taken that flaw. I'm all for ironclad consequences. |
Hehe, I actually came up with the idea while running Brainscan and one of the Shaman's on my team took the flaw. I had Deus install a Deltagrade Datajack into him in the last scene. Trust me, he wasn't too happy about my ruling.
| QUOTE (L.D @ Oct 14 2003, 12:11 PM) |
| Yes. But the guys doing the surgery didn't care, and the jack was used for at least a whole day before being removed. |
The rules are pretty clear...cyber cannot be successfully put in a character with bio-rejection.
However...as GM, you can fudge a little bit to retroactively explain an error. Let's just say that the guys who put it in were trying out some new combination of immuno-suppressant drugs and nanotechnology. A free floating nono cluster was injected, drugs administered and the operation done. So, the jack worked for a day...now they've worn off and his body's rejecting the cyber. Now he's in a pickle! He's gotta get it removed or he'll die!!!
Here's how I'd do it...he's just aquired the "borrowed time" flaw! He's got X amount of time to get rid of it...I'd say maybe 2 weeks before death is inescapable. Actual death taking 1 month. Since it was Deuce who put it in him in the Brainscan adventure book, well, then he might not also have the hunted 6 flaw or he might...after all, he's a test subject. Renraku might have discovered about him! He is a valuable resource for test results! Now, that's a lot of flaw points. In exchange, I might give him the Daredevil edge and the Will to Live 3 edge for as long as he has that jack. These edges dissappear once the jack's gone. In exchange for the hunted flaw some mental and or social edge points might be appropriate. Perhaps the jack stimulated his brain, making him much more perceptive (a 3 point edge) or give him a sudden photographic memory (another 3 point edge) or both.
You could make it Hunted 4 instead, which would be more manageable for the campaign.
Without a level 2 contact, he might be in trouble. Level ones just don't care enough about him unless he can pay them a lot. To them he might be worth more for the reward money. BUt...llok at all the cool stuff you can do now!
{Edited after I saw my guess about Brainscan was right...removed the stuff that didn't involve it.}
Ok, what if a shpaeshifter was forced (by deus or whatever means) to take cyberware... what would happen? Death? CC does say it is usually expelled in a 'painful way.' Or does it prevent changing shapes? And would getting a point of cyber installed affect your magic rating, seeing as how you have an essence of 8 at char gen? After all, it wouldn't drop the essence below your magic rating.
Prior note of taking Beta/Delta to actually get it in and take: Bio-Rejection rejects all bio/cyberware. That includes Beta- and Deltaware.
Sensitive System (is it in SR3? in SR2...) doubles all Essence Losses. However, if you're magically active and have a Totem that doubles Essence Loss, you can't take this (probaly posting this to the people who know it...
).
Sensitive System (is it in SR3? in SR2...) doubles all Essence Losses. However, if you're magically active and have a Totem that doubles Essence Loss, you can't take this (probaly posting this to the people who know it...
).
Just a reminder, IIRC Brainscan does specifically provide a provision for characters with Bio-Rejection of whatever variety to be jacked in with 'trode rigs instead of a datajack.
~J
~J
<off topic>What, exactly, is IIRC? I keep seeing it but not quite figuring what it means.</off topic>
If I Recall Correctly.
Thanks muchly. Back to topic.
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| Sensitive System (is it in SR3? in SR2...) doubles all Essence Losses. However, if you're magically active and have a Totem that doubles Essence Loss, you can't take this (probaly posting this to the people who know it... ). |
If you have an essence penalty from your totem, you can't take either flaw. I've often wondered why anyone would take bio-rejection as a mage, anyway, since sensitive system seems so much more workable from a "what if" standpoint.
I guess if it works in such a way that cyber could never cost you essence, even against your will, it might be worth it. But other than that... there's no good mechanical reason to take it (or IC reason, for that matter) over the Sensitive System flaw which nets you the same points for a (seemingly) weaker flaw.
It's worth mentioning that neither flaw stops someone from sticking a cranial bomb in you since it doesn't cost essence (and I guess you could culture some of the victim's cells onto the outside of it to make it non-rejectable)
Sensitive System's -5 in 3rd, now? Or is Bio-Reject -3? Should peek at the book before answering, but it's all the way in my room. =\
Sensitive System -3 and Biorejection is -5. Both are just -2 for a magically active person, though.
Ah, right, fair enough. Forgot that little tidbit.
Used to playing Mundane characters.
Used to playing Mundane characters.
Actually, rereading them, Sensitive System doesn't rule out being used with Essence penalty totems like bio-rejection does. Which makes it even more attractive in some cases...
Hm. I read that wrong, then, or got them confused. So that means a, say, Eagle Shaman with a Sensitive System Flaw takes four times the Essence Loss? Yikes!
Speaking as a shaman with biorejection.
I CANNOT get cyberware. I CANNOT lose essence because that would entail that my body accepted the cyberware, which, it cannot.
You operate to give me a datajack.
There's a wound on me and some asshat stuck a piece of metal inside!!
The wound will not heal as long as there's a piece of foreign material inside.
As soon as I regain consciousness (if, depends on the operation) and heal myself, I'm gonna launch that little bugger accross the room with a "ptuey!" sound.
Least that's the way we do it.
I see it as an advantage, who the hell wants cyberware?!?
Kong
I CANNOT get cyberware. I CANNOT lose essence because that would entail that my body accepted the cyberware, which, it cannot.
You operate to give me a datajack.
There's a wound on me and some asshat stuck a piece of metal inside!!
The wound will not heal as long as there's a piece of foreign material inside.
As soon as I regain consciousness (if, depends on the operation) and heal myself, I'm gonna launch that little bugger accross the room with a "ptuey!" sound.
Least that's the way we do it.
I see it as an advantage, who the hell wants cyberware?!?
Kong
Thanks for all the replies, but I have to admit that I haven't decided yet. Oh, and I'm not playing Brainscan... although they are inside the Arcology.
I figured that bio-rejection works like transplant rejection works today and that'd be the end of it... but I was wrong. Seems that rejection today comes in several forms.
From this site:
I figured that bio-rejection works like transplant rejection works today and that'd be the end of it... but I was wrong. Seems that rejection today comes in several forms.
From this site:
| QUOTE |
Hyperacute" rejection occurs within minutes of transplantation due to antibodies in the organ recipients blood stream that react with the new organ and result in organ failure within the first hours after transplantation Acute" rejection generally occurs in the first 6 to 12 months after transplantation. |
So now I'm actually thinking about splitting Bio-rejection into two separate flaws:
Hyperacute bio-rejection -6 and Acute bio-rejection for -4 points. Just to be able to get a better grasp of how it works.
Thoughts?
Hyperacute rejection sounds like Bio-rejection and acute rejection sounds like it covers much the same niche as sensitive system. I wouldn't give a different point value for them for the simple reason that some people will attempt to use the hyperacute version to their advantage. If anything, the one where it works for a while (thus costing you essence) and then stops would be the bigger disadvantage, points-wise.
Aw LD, you went and learned something from the real world - how dare you? How dare you advance your scientific knowledge in the name of gaming? We're supposed to have our heads in the clouds and no basis in reality!*
I agree with TinkerGnome (but this is just me voting) - a flaw should not be able to be used as an advantage. If the essence could be healed, and the cyberware rejected after a bit of time, the character could essentially become a modular borg. Need a datajack? Got one for two days. Need MBW IV? Got it for a few days! Still a functional mage though.
*sadly, I started researching my Ph.D. work after I read some of the ideas in SOTA 2063. I read some of their stuff and thought "hey, why CAN'T we discover something like this?". True, my research has then mutated to cryobiology, but still.
I agree with TinkerGnome (but this is just me voting) - a flaw should not be able to be used as an advantage. If the essence could be healed, and the cyberware rejected after a bit of time, the character could essentially become a modular borg. Need a datajack? Got one for two days. Need MBW IV? Got it for a few days! Still a functional mage though.
*sadly, I started researching my Ph.D. work after I read some of the ideas in SOTA 2063. I read some of their stuff and thought "hey, why CAN'T we discover something like this?". True, my research has then mutated to cryobiology, but still.
Well... I mailed the info section about it and this is what I got:
| QUOTE |
| >If a player with bio-rejection gets a piece of cyber inplanted (say >datajack) and then has to remove it because of the flaw, does he still >lose essence? Oh yeah. That's the point. It's a flaw, not a regeneration power. :: Rob Boyle :: Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC |
So if I want to follow the official rules, then he would lose the essence even if he couldn't use it.
I'm am soooooooo against this last post.
Essence loss from cyberware comes from the merger of meat and machine. If you have bio rejection, you CANNOT get cyberware, you CANNOT lose essence because you body will NOT accept the cyberware. Essence loss does not come from the cyberware, it comes from the MERGER. No merger, no essence loss.
Sunday
Essence loss from cyberware comes from the merger of meat and machine. If you have bio rejection, you CANNOT get cyberware, you CANNOT lose essence because you body will NOT accept the cyberware. Essence loss does not come from the cyberware, it comes from the MERGER. No merger, no essence loss.
Sunday
The thing is that a short merger does exists before the body rejects the implant, and that short merger is enough for you to lose essence.
*shrug* If you say so, just don't ever try that in my games =)
Rejection is the antithesis to implanting anything, if you reject cyberware, you reject cyberware, at no point will you successfully merge with it, you will never be able to use it and you will never heal from the operation and, at least in my games, you won't lose essence.
Do you lose essence if someone stabs you and jams a chip into the wound? Cause that's precisely what implanting cyberware on a guy with biorejection does. His body will not accept the cyberware.
Anywho, you can run it any way you want, but there's no way you'll ever convince me. I simply cannot stress how "oh so completely" wrong I think you are.
Sunday
Rejection is the antithesis to implanting anything, if you reject cyberware, you reject cyberware, at no point will you successfully merge with it, you will never be able to use it and you will never heal from the operation and, at least in my games, you won't lose essence.
Do you lose essence if someone stabs you and jams a chip into the wound? Cause that's precisely what implanting cyberware on a guy with biorejection does. His body will not accept the cyberware.
Anywho, you can run it any way you want, but there's no way you'll ever convince me. I simply cannot stress how "oh so completely" wrong I think you are.
Sunday
I don't think that's a valid comparison Sunday, because it's just not some simple cut, its brain surgery that made cuts for the cyberware to interface. Those cuts are already made and the damage is done regardless if the body then rejects them.
I have to go with the "You lose the Essence" side here.
Yeah, so you can't really take it. Yeah, so it just shoots it back out if it is even attempted to integrate with you. Guess what? The machinery is made to integrate with you. It'll try, no matter what, and you'll lose part of your aura/Essence for it.
Yeah, so you can't really take it. Yeah, so it just shoots it back out if it is even attempted to integrate with you. Guess what? The machinery is made to integrate with you. It'll try, no matter what, and you'll lose part of your aura/Essence for it.
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