So, I don't see phobias listed anywhere under negative qualities. So, would it be fair to use the same costs as allergies, and more or less the same penalties?

For example, a mild phobia of sunlight (common, mild). Character suffers a -2 dice pool when in sunlight, and tries to avoid sunlight as much as possible.


Now, assuming this works, and that phobias should cost about the same as allergies, would you rate, for a full magician, astral projection as common, or uncommon?

My opinion is that for a full mage, astral projection is one of the more important aspects of his powers, and thus it would be common. I can't really see it being uncommon for a full mage, when the things listed as uncommon include silver, gold, and seawater in a landlocked city (Denver).

Make sense?

Dave

Definitely common. I'm not sure I'd allow it though, as it isn't something you can spring on him. Phobias should be a GM tool to be pulled out to make things more challenging. Without some extreme circumstances it's pretty hard to force someone to astrally project.

Well, no, you can't force him to astrally project (actually you can, in a number of ways, including drugs, being forced into the astral ala Harlequin's Back, etc...) but it is a major component of being a mage, and is pretty crippling if a mage suffers penalties everytime he does project.

Now, here's one to add on top of it: a mild addiction to Deepweed. The only way the mage can bring himself to astrally project is to take Deepweed, which he does twice a week, on average. The deepweed doesn't negate the penalties, but it does allow him to overcome his fear, and project in the first place, still with the -2 dice penalty while projecting.

Just wondering if this makes sense, or is needless rules-mongering for build points.

Dave

It should be worth less than 5 points, as you could save 5 points by being a mystic adept and not being physically able to astrally project. Taking a phobia still leaves you apable of doing it, albeit with penalties. I'd say 1-2 points, tops.

According to the rules (or at least my interpretation) astral projection is worth less than 5BP on it's own because mystic adepts lose 5BP and it, but gain the ability to get adept powers. So unless the ability to gain adept powers is worthless, 5BP is too much.

I'm starting to get fuzzy headed from sleepiness, so if that didn't make sense let me know and I'll try to rephrase tomorrow.

...I've actually thought about structuring them this way as well. Phobias can be an interesting facet to the game (provided they're not over the top silly ones). Once had a decker character with a moderate phobia of crawling bugs, this could be particularly bad in certain sculpted systems.

A few Phobias that I would consider allowing include:

Enclosed spaces
Crowds
Open Spaces
Open Water
Night/Darkness
Animal/Paracritter (by type)
Heights
Magic
Loud Noise
Insects/Arachnids
Contamination
Fire

How would you treat someone who develops a new phobia during the course of a campaign? Such as a runner who battles bug spirits and then suddenly can't cope with seeing a cockroach on his floor?

simple, if they roleplay well, they get bonus karma.

it should be noticed that you may want to talk with the runner before saddling them with a disadvantage they couldn't avoid, though. i mean, if they burn karma to escape certain death or something, then yeah give them a negative quality, and if they use combat drugs constantly, then sure give them addiction...

but fighting bug spirits alone shouldn't be enough, IMO. almost becoming a host or something, otoh...

(basically, if a character is going to get a negative quality, it should be either something they brought on themselves, could have avoided, or agree to have added on, IMO).

but yeah, like i said... give out bonus karma for good RP effort.

I think a phobia would kinda work like this;

Phobia
Bonus: 5 to 20 BP
A character with the Phobia quality is psychologically tormented by both interaction with and fear of a type of person (race, gender, ethnicity, age, or group), a general kind of place, a general situation, animal, or object. First, determine wether the subject of the phobia is Uncommon (2 bp) or Common (7 bp). Then determine the severity of the symptoms: Mild (3 bp), Moderate (8 BP), or Severe (13 bp). Add the appropriate point values to find the final value. For example, the value of a Common Moderate Phobia is 15 (7+8 ) build points.
The Phobia table gives descriptions of conditions and severity.

Phobia Table

Condition____Value_Description
Uncommon____2___The condition or subject is rare for the local envirnoment. Examples:
_________________Dragons, Vampires, Heights in a flatland or plains setting (such as
_________________Kansas.)
Common______7___The condition or subject is common for the local envirnoment.
_________________Examples: Rats, Uncleanliness, Darkness.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mild__________3___Symptoms are discomforting and distracting. Apply a -2 dice
_________________pool modifier to all tests made while a character experiences
_________________symptoms.
Moderate_____8____Exposure to the condition or subject invokes a fight or flight
_________________reaction in addition to the panic. Apply a -4 dice pool modifier to
_________________tests made while a character experiences symptoms. Also, the
_________________character must make a Willpower(1) test to avoid either fleeing
_________________in total panic or destroying the source of her discomfort. If
_________________unable to do either, the character becomes incapacitated.
_________________After 5 rounds of either reaction, the character may make a
_________________Composure (2) Test per round to return to her normal behavior.
Severe______13___Exposure to the condition or subject invokes a fight or flight
_________________reaction in addition to the panic. Apply a -4 dice pool modifier to
_________________tests made while a character experiences symptoms. Also, the
_________________character must make a Willpower(3) test to avoid either fleeing
_________________in total panic or destroying the source of her discomfort. If
_________________unable to do either, the character becomes incapacitated.
_________________The character either flees as far as the GM deems reasonable,
_________________or fights to the death.


Think that works well enough?

I can understand the desire not to play the numbers game. LEt;s just agree to do it differently in our groups.

I have opted to not make phobias worth points, in fact the elimination of a huge number of edges and flaws in 4th edition was in my opinion a very good thing and the fact that there weren't 6 pages each of positive and negative qualities a step in the right direction of reclaiming the the game from ramapnt munchkinism and powergaming. I would leave phobias as a character development issue worth no points, so they would only pop up if they really were integral to the character

But they left in several Negative qualities that can easily be munchined.
And took out some that help to fill out character concept.

Xenith's Phobia looks good to me.

The point is that you can still have your character be deathly afarid of something without having point values and mechanics attached. I have pretty much been against edges and flaws ever since they we're introduced in the SR(2) Companion almost a decade ago. Unfortunately my players thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread and fire and went bonkers with them and then complained when I made their characters almost completely dysfunctional in actual game play. They toned it down eventually, but in general my opion tends towards there are still too many. Since our group shares GM duties it is a bit difficult to mandate GM approval and solve this problem, if the player doesn't like one GM's take there is the opportunity to go to another GM to get the character approved.

Some players need flaws in order to give their characters negative qualities. Others don't, they like to play imperfect beings. IMO flaws and edges aren't really necessary. Edges are better than flaws, since they cost BP instead of giving them. I really like the way nWoD handles flaws: you get nothing for them at character creation, but do gain extra XP every time the flaw comes up in play and harms you. There's no such thing as a freebie in that setup.

You have your style, I have mine. *shrugs*

Anyway, wasn't this subject about how the quality would work rather than bashing Edges/Flaws? You made your point... Nice points. I like to reward players for roleplaying, too, but I like edges and flaws. This isn't nWoD (much as I enjoy that system ) Can we move on now?

Sure. Not that I ever said this was nWoD.

I've already made my comments on the primary topic, and since threads rarely survive multiple derailings on DS, I went with the flow.

Edit: Or was that not directed wholly at me? The "you have your style I have mine" seems to indicate that we were in opposition, but I never actually replied to you specifically. I'm probably misunderstanding something though. It wouldn't be the first time.

In general, and this is not the first time somenoe thought I was being specific to them, when I say you and not say a name I mean those that find Edge/Flaws to be a waste of time or solely a munchkins tool.

Disclaimer: all words contained within Xenith's post are meant to insult, dismiss, and/or derive in a small, inpersonal way, unless specifically stated otherwise. Side effects may include dementia, catatonia, anal leakage, and/or cervical cancer.

Ah, since I'm in neither of those categories it's cool. And I even get to avoid cervical cancer (at least this time).

Xenith

I like the description. It's pretty damn close to allergies, but has the things needed for phobias. Perfect.

NOOO!!! YOU MUST ARGUE!!!

I like the idea of using the allergy rules as a basis for similar phobia rules (which is about how it was in SR3, too). I don't think a phobia of astral projection would be quite the same, though, since all a mage needs to do to avoid it is not project.

I would probably just give it a straight 5 points, and the same general effect as simsense vertigo for a decker (deckers get 10 points, but that is for a flaw affecting their main function. A mage who can't astrally project can still use spellcasting, assensing, ritual sorcery, counterspelling, summoning, banishing, binding, foci, etc.).

We considered phobias in our campaign. A few players were making new characters and I gave them some options for traits. However, I find phobia to be one of the top ways to get free build points.

Do you know how many of my players took a fear of grapefruit? Grapefruit launchers tend to be a lot more common in my game now.

Grapefruit make excellent missile weapons. They're not hard enough to do physical damage. They're environmentally friendly (biodegradable, and may even feed the wildlife in the proper areas. They're fairly cheap if you have access to a grapefruit farm. You can hit a guy in the eyes with the juice and ruin his day without much risk of permanent damage. In extremely dire situations you can survive by eating your ammunition.

I'm surprised there aren't more grapefruit launchers in use today.

Pumpkins too.....

http://www.punkinchunkin.com/

If a GM allows a phobia of grapefruit, thats not a very good GM. On the other hand if you're going for a SR parody, then have at it.