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Neverborn
Just as my particular story has been going obviously the players are going to be getting a some of this particular Trait. I was just curious that besides my own judgement on this that if anyone had any suggestions for a quick and easy way to garner how much trouble this caused the players

For example at something like 1-3 maybe only local citizens, Police, and news channels have actually heard of some of the crews exploits. Then at 4-7 its become something as large as city wide.

I also realize this could be offset by how big a particular job could be, so any input would be awesome
Dudukain
Easy: The higher your public awareness, the less you get jobs, the more people say "Hey! It's that shadowrunner guy!" The more often you are targetted by police, and the more often a young'un looking to make a name for himself tries to kill you.
Nim
QUOTE (Dudukain)
Easy: The higher your public awareness, the less you get jobs, the more people say "Hey! It's that shadowrunner guy!" The more often you are targetted by police, and the more often a young'un looking to make a name for himself tries to kill you.

Shadow jobs, at least. I suppose you might eventually get some sponsorship offers and talk-show-circuit jobs, if your notoreity was under control....
stevebugge
While the ratings for Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness are useful there aren't a lot of mechanics for using them.

Street Cred can be used as a Dice Pool Bonus for people in the know about the character in most social situations.

Notoriety reduces your Street Red in most situations, though it is benficial to intimidation.

Public Awareness has it's primary use for people in the general public to have heard of the character and recognize them. the BBB specifically states that once Public Awareness reaches 3 the local authorities probably have a file on you. Strictly speaking it's a dicepool bonus for the average joe to recognize you.

How this affects your game is up to the GM. It could mean that you have moved on to a list of known criminals Lonestar actively pursues, you may have copycats, greenhorns looking to make aname for themselves gunning for you, Fans (remember that contact from the SR2 contact book?), and random recognition when you are out and about. The types of jobs offered or the frequency with which you are offered jobs may change. You probably won't get to many infiltration offers for example, because not only might security recognize you the watercooler crowd might too. You might get more jobs for things like amatuer Urban Brawl teams or other high profile work. Your ability to command premium pay may take a hit too, or you may find that the rest of your team claims a larger share (maybe using Public Awareness as a penalty to your negotiation pool inside the shadow sommunity).
Ankle Biter
I feel that while it is a mechanic that was somewhat overlooked in previous versions, the way it was executed was a bit poor. Just having 2 stats of "Public Awareness" and "Notoriesty" means that failing/quitting every run you go in is going to make you more intimidating, as does being incompetent in a number of skills. What?

What there needs to be is
One public awareness stat, not based on how much karma you have, but how publicly you operate on runs, and how often you change your face/street name.

One killer rep stat, increased by random ganking of people, bloodthirstyness and surviving difficult runs, and decreased by saving puppies from burning buildings.

One finesse stat increased by stealthing runs, leaving no evidence, reduced by being front page news, being a moron, having incompetences.

Then finesse can have a bearing on your skill groupable social rolls with people who recognise you, killer rep for intimidation only, and public awareness is no longer certain to increase the more you run, it just means literally how often people trecognise you.. Then all tree together can effect what types of run you get.
James McMurray
Or even simpler, no stats at all and the GM determines how the world interacts with the characters based on what that subset of it knows about them.
stevebugge
The current system is still an improvement over the convoluted formula they came up with in SR2 for Public and Private reputation. In my group I tend to handle it more the way James does. However in this group we have the luxury of a lot of play continuity and some really well developed characters. I still find the mechanic helpful as a guage of just how well known or how disliked a character is in comparrison to other characters in the group. Some mechanic for Reputaion is certainly helpful for newer players because it is (or at least can be) a pretty important part of the game.
James McMurray
That's not how we handle it (we use the RAW). It's just a way I'd suggest modifying things instead of creating more stats. In some ways it's more work for the GM and in other ways it's less.
Protagonist
QUOTE (Ankle Biter)
One killer rep stat, increased by random ganking of people, bloodthirstyness and surviving difficult runs, and decreased by saving puppies from burning buildings.

One finesse stat increased by stealthing runs, leaving no evidence, reduced by being front page news, being a moron, having incompetences.

Then finesse can have a bearing on your skill groupable social rolls with people who recognise you, killer rep for intimidation only, and public awareness is no longer certain to increase the more you run, it just means literally how often people trecognise you.. Then all tree together can effect what types of run you get.

Killer rep? How much of a reputation you have do to killing. Not all shadowrunners are killer. It's really specific.

Finesse as this kind of stat makes little sense. If that's what you're supposed to do, fine. It doesn't apply to runs where you might need to be obvious (a distraction), or a ton of other situations. If your goal is to be a "ghost" then you shouldn't be given a stat for it; the absence of such a thing is better.

Neither of these two cover things very well, and don't even come close to covering everything that street cred and notoriety do.

As to public awareness being based of karma, it's not; not directly anyway. It's derived from street cred and notoriety.

Neverborn
Thanks for the replies btw
James McMurray
QUOTE
Killer rep?  How much of a reputation you have do to killing.  Not all shadowrunners are killer.  It's really specific. 


PResumably the ones that aren't killers would have a low killer rep, and thus not gett he bonuses for intimidation (but they'd probably get more jobs that specify a zero body count.

QUOTE
Finesse as this kind of stat makes little sense.  If that's what you're supposed to do, fine.  It doesn't apply to runs where you might need to be obvious (a distraction), or a ton of other situations.  If your goal is to be a "ghost" then you shouldn't be given a stat for it; the absence of such a thing is better.


Why does it make no sense? It's a measure of how well your group is at pulling off zero or low presence runs. That's a very handy information for a fixer to have.

QUOTE
As to public awareness being based of karma, it's not; not directly anyway.  It's derived from street cred and notoriety.


True, but if you never do anything to increase or decrease notoriety, your street cred, and hence public awareness, automatically goes up no matter how high or low your presence was during your runs.
Geekkake
So it stands to reason that Street Cred could be houseruled to work functionally similar to Notoriety - assigned by the GM upon certain events, rather than by Karma. Seems easy enough to me.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Geekkake)
So it stands to reason that Street Cred could be houseruled to work functionally similar to Notoriety - assigned by the GM upon certain events, rather than by Karma. Seems easy enough to me.

Certainly seems like it could work that way. It's likely the only reason that they tied street cred to Karma is that Karma is the closest thing to a measure of "activity" a character has (sort of the more they have done the higher the Karma total) and this was the best way available to demonstrate that no matter how good a job you do, no job goes unnoticed forever.
Shadowmeet
QUOTE (stevebugge)
QUOTE (Geekkake @ Jun 22 2006, 10:29 AM)
So it stands to reason that Street Cred could be houseruled to work functionally similar to Notoriety - assigned by the GM upon certain events, rather than by Karma. Seems easy enough to me.

Certainly seems like it could work that way. It's likely the only reason that they tied street cred to Karma is that Karma is the closest thing to a measure of "activity" a character has (sort of the more they have done the higher the Karma total) and this was the best way available to demonstrate that no matter how good a job you do, no job goes unnoticed forever.

Of course, if you are always known by a street name, and make few meets in person(or showing your treu face), then public awareness would be tied to the name you are known by. And that might be shed as easily as a fake sin. Problem then is starting near the bottom of the barrell for jobs.
stevebugge
Just to clarify here:

Public Awareness is how the public knows you. Street Cred is how the Shadow Community knows you. Street Cred is the one that will help you get jobs. My understanding of Street Cred is that it isn't really tied to a SIN or Name so much as a person or personality. For Public Awareness your Name or SIN might be known or you might just be known by a moniker kind of like the Green River Killer was for decades before we found out he was Gary Ridgeway.
Ankle Biter
QUOTE (Protagonist)
QUOTE (Ankle Biter @ Jun 21 2006, 12:54 PM)
One killer rep stat, increased by random ganking of people, bloodthirstyness and surviving difficult runs, and decreased by saving puppies from burning buildings.

One finesse stat increased by stealthing runs, leaving no evidence, reduced by being front page news, being a moron, having incompetences.

Then finesse can have a bearing on your skill groupable social rolls with people who recognise you, killer rep for intimidation only, and public awareness is no longer certain to increase the more you run, it just means literally how often people trecognise you..  Then all tree together can effect what types of run you get.

Killer rep? How much of a reputation you have do to killing. Not all shadowrunners are killer. It's really specific.

Finesse as this kind of stat makes little sense. If that's what you're supposed to do, fine. It doesn't apply to runs where you might need to be obvious (a distraction), or a ton of other situations. If your goal is to be a "ghost" then you shouldn't be given a stat for it; the absence of such a thing is better.

Neither of these two cover things very well, and don't even come close to covering everything that street cred and notoriety do.

As to public awareness being based of karma, it's not; not directly anyway. It's derived from street cred and notoriety.

James covered most of what I was going to say, but I will add that Finesse and Killer Rep can have negative values. The idea is to measure not what "level" of reputation you have, but rather what you have a reputation for.

Whether or not people know you, and therefore know of your reputation is another matter. Naturally, though, word can, and will, spread amongst Johnsons as to what runners follow what behaviour patterns. For Wetwork, and Enforcement style jobs one would look for a high killer rep, for delivery, and theft, finesse would be looked for. If you have negative values in both, there are generally distraction/set up the runners runs that sometimes need doing.

Finesse does not have to be just for ghosting, for example it can be added for "Distraction" Style Runs if your team manages to get every lonestar cop in a city tied up for an hour, and walk away scott free. It's more for doing whatever you were paid to do with the maximum payout to effort ratio.

Finesse can go up as well as down; Suppose you were hired to hit 'Tony "the tanker" Moriannie' and make sure he is found with a fish in his mouth. Next day "The tanker" goes missing and is later found artistically incorporated into The Capo De Familia's Ornamental fountain choked on an imported scotish salmon lodged in his gullet that is still alive, and squiting water.

Suppose instead you waited a month, then blew up a city block, to get to him, missed, had a rolling gunfight on the streets, killed Tony, then had to drag his corpse into a supermarket with the cops chasing you, barely getting a tin of sardines in his mouth before escaping. The run was completed to specification, but could have been done with more... Finesse.

Killer Rep probably would be added for the above example, but a character would lose finesse.

Similarly a character could end up with a negative value for Killer Rep if they refused runs that may involve killing people, "chickening out" when things turn violent, constantly backing down from threats, etc. (Quitting the run will lose a lot of finesse)

Killer rep can be gained without killing people. Winning a fistfight with a dragon, scaring a Troll Bouncer to tears with a gesture and a word, never backing down from a challenege, completing a run that has gone tottaly tits up, will all get you reputation as somebody not to be drekked with.
HappyDaze
I've found that players can easily keep all of this down to very low values within the RAW. Typically, it's not too hard to build up 1 Notoriety every few runs, and that's about as long as it takes to get the 2 Street Cred that it takes to burn it off. Doing so keeps your Public Awareness down.

All of the Reputation mechanics work together - if you want the Street Cred (or Notoriety) bonuses to social rolls, then be prepared for the downside as your Public Awareness starts to rise.
Phobos
K, having to build up Notority to get rid of PA is fine by the letters, but probably not the spirit - instead you could always use the roleplying part to lower PA (which is suggested by the rules, btw) : (Have someone) Hack into LoneStar to delete files, bribe officers to "lose" evidence, change your hideouts, fake SINs and MO, work different parts of the 'plex for a time ...
Whis way you can have your Street Rep rise to "Shining Star of the Shadow Comunity" without anyone knowing in the public ... except perhaps that old, disgruntled, paranoid guy at the Star who still wants so solve that case from back then ...

So, going by the rules, there's no need to change system :
'Finesse' would simply be the difference between your Street Rep and your PA.
'Killer Rep' is already covered with Notority.

Everything considered, this part of the SR4 rules is pretty good, no cause to change anything here, it's just important that the GM and the players make use of them (see above).
Ankle Biter
QUOTE (HappyDaze)
I've found that players can easily keep all of this down to very low values within the RAW. Typically, it's not too hard to build up 1 Notoriety every few runs, and that's about as long as it takes to get the 2 Street Cred that it takes to burn it off. Doing so keeps your Public Awareness down.

All of the Reputation mechanics work together - if you want the Street Cred (or Notoriety) bonuses to social rolls, then be prepared for the downside as your Public Awareness starts to rise.

How does this make sense?

Are you suggesting that doing the sort of dumb things that get you notoriety should reduce the number of people who know who you are? eek.gif

Call me captain anal, but there is a lot I see wrong with the RAW take on this. It's one thing to say that rules are simple, so they are good, it is another to stick with rules that make no logical sense because of this.

Notoriety/street credit exist as an 'objective' mechanic for modifying social rolls based on your reputation, a very simple premise. The execution of this premise, however is deeply flawed.

The only RAW effects of notoritey are

"If a character is trying to earn somebody's trust or otherwise win them over".

It reduces street cred, but never below zero. So if have notoriety 5 after your first run for refusing to finish when you saw the place the run was based, but kept the front money, and in the process got SK pissed at you at it was Lofwyr's personal run. You then go to a bar to wind down, pick a fight with a five year old who turns round and beats the snot out of you. There's 5 notoriety or so in there.

You turn to the barmaid who has just watched you on national tv (apparently your decker got pissed at you for bailing) saying

"Screw the job, Lofwyr can go hump himself if he thinks I'm going to go in there just to get some medicine for that poor orphin that the company is witholding just because the kid is black, I got my front money, I'm out of here"

Don't worry, she won't treat you any different to the stranger sat next to you who is not currently picking his teeth up off the floor. Unless you are trying to intimidate her of course.

"In suituations that involve intimidation, or fear, notoriety is given as a bonus to street cred instead."

Some things people know about you can really get them quaking in their boots.

"Picking a fight and losing"
"refusing to finish a run"

Then there are your flaws, these are terrifying...

"Incompetent" (the complete firearms SG & Close combat SG)
"Combat Paralysis"
"Infirm" (Oh noes, a couch potatoe, better do what he says)

But calm down, lads, no need to be scared, those terryfing attributes are partially cancelled by the fact that everybody knows you're the luckyest man alive.

When RAW lets being lucky make you less scary and getting beat up more scary, guess what? Time to change the RAW.
Phobos
Half of what you indicate is off the point, sorry.

That bartender will treat you worse than the guy next to you because you already get a penalty to your social interaction for a) being a wanted criminal (and coward) and b) being the laughingstock in the barroom brawl ... that should put your social dice pools to close to zero anyway ... and probably stay there forever with anyone who remembers you.
Now if you leave the bar and go next door, if nobody recognizes you, you will be treated just the same as any other blood-smeared, stupid-looking weakling.

I give you that the way they are put, the rules can be used in pretty stupid ways - e.g. killing innocents to get rid of public awareness ... but that this is not intended should be pretty obvious - what was intended that you could make up for your misdeeds so eventually they would be covered and forgotten ... and your involvement along with them.

That makes the spirit of the rule pretty good, and the actual writing pretty crappy ... well ...

Now, how to solve that :

For 'someone knowing about you' : add Notority to Street Cred. Public knowledge is unchanged.
For 'gaining someones trust' : no penalty is applied for having more Notority than Street Cred (RAW so far), but the GM should remember that the particularities that comprise that characters Notority WILL have an effect on the social interaction. (If a character has more Notority than Street Cred because he is a coward he will not be penalized for the extra Notority, but for being known as a coward.)
For intimidation : Same, basically ... count Notority for 'stupid' flaws normally, but remember that if the target character knows what the character is notorious for, apply each of those negative qualities as a penalty to the intimidation attempt (-1 per 5pts of quality ... e.g. -4 dice for being Infirm, -4 again for that Combat Paralysis ...)

Oh, and ... of course, you can only use any Street Cred to buy of Notoriety that you earned SINCE gaining that point of Notority.

As you can see, you simply forgot the normal social modifiers - if you include them in the calculation, everything fits.

... okay, probably that is a 'so far' ... biggrin.gif
HappyDaze
I don't grant any bonus for Notoriety - it's all bad and, IMG, it can give you negatives if your Notoriety > Street Cred.

There should be rules for all three ratings to drop over time if you spend a few months (or even years) inactive. What, your game doesn't allow runners downtime? Mine needs it so they have time to recover from their regularly scheduled cosmetic makeovers and relocation efforts...
ornot
I'm really not sure if I've read your posts right... but if I am getting it right then you've misread the role notoriety and street cred make to your public awareness.

p258 of the RAW says public awareness is the sum of street cred and notoriety. You can't decrease your PA by increasing your notoriety.

PA is also not specified as being good or bad, just how well you are known. Some shadowrunners are feared as dangerous criminals, others might be liked by the street dwellers for their Robin Hood like rob-from-the-rich-give-to-the-poor reputation. That same reputation would make you persona-non-grata among the haves in the sprawl.

It's up to the GM to decide what impact your PA has on how the general public know you, based on the kind of runs you went on to accrue that notoriety/street cred.

I do agree with you on intimidation tests being +vely modified by -ve qualities. That doesn't make any sense, but as a GM I'd just inflict dice pool penalties based on how obvious these things were. For example, someone who is scorched by btls. Word might get around that he is a bit of a headcase, although it might not be widely known that btls is what did it, he'd still be a bit scary. On the flipside, someone who is clearly obese (infirm) isn't going to frighten anyone much, although they might disgust them (shudders at the memory of some of the people he met on the T in Boston).
Geekkake
To address the first part of your post, ornot, you can gather yourself some Notoriety, then buy it off with Street Cred you already have, thus reducing both and lowering your PA.
ornot
true 'nuff. I'd missed that use of street cred. Not sure how I'd actually explain that exchange in game. It's also worth noting that you need to accrue 20 karma for each point of notoriety, which is hardly a meteroic rise in notoriety.

I guess you could say that it represents changing your MO, face, street name, that sort of thing.
hyzmarca
Some thoughts -

QUOTE (A Guy You Don't Want to Meet)
I make accidents happen. I make natural causes happen. I do not kill. My clients do not pay me to kill. Any idiot can kill. You can buy such an idiot for the cost of a cold sandwich and a hot gun. That idiot will be messy. My clients do not pay me to kill. They pay me for perfection. They pay me to leave no traces and not a single sign of anything unusual. When I complete a job no one has a clue that it was a job. My clients can never be sure that I actually did anything; as far as they know it could have been a coincidence. Still, they pay me. A coincidence is better than a mess.


I must wonder what kind of a rep this character would have using different systems.

The problem with any abstrat rep system is that it cannot take into account every possibility. For that matter, it doesn't take into account every social circle. A character with a great deal of street cred amongst street gangers will have far less credibility among corporate Johnsons, for example.
Phobos
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (A Guy You Don't Want to Meet)
I make accidents happen. I make natural causes happen. I do not kill. My clients do not pay me to kill. Any idiot can kill. You can buy such an idiot for the cost of a cold sandwich and a hot gun. That idiot will be messy. My clients do not pay me to kill. They pay me for perfection. They pay me to leave no traces and not a single sign of anything unusual. When I complete a job no one has a clue that it was a job. My clients can never be sure that I actually did anything; as far as they know it could have been a coincidence. Still, they pay me. A coincidence is better than a mess.


I must wonder what kind of a rep this character would have using different systems.

Using RAW, that guy would have high Street Cred (clean work, reliability, subtlety)and Notoriety (Wetwork!!!), at probably about 2:1, and a near-no-nothing PA (at worst he exists as a rumour - like a ghost with no face or name).

And with him, the RAW work about perfect, this is excactly the kind of guy they tried to reflect with that rule, not the guy who makes a mess out of everything and rarely achieves his objective ('guess they considered survivability aproximately zero for that one).


Well, rule systems always have to be abstractions, that's their nature. Of course there is the question of how far you can go before the system breaks as the number of exceptions it does not consider becomes to large (there are enough examples of that ...)
Now, how could you break up Reputation ?
One way would be to track rep for every kind of job the characters take (Wetwork : Notority 8 ("they won't take open wetwork and will rather kill their johnson than their target if they are set up to do it"), Break&Entry : Streed Cred 10 ("'never leave a trace"), Extraction Street Cred 4, Notority 2 ("good at the mechanics but lack in social interaction with the target", ...)
Or try categories : Stealth, Combat, Social Interaction, Magic, Tech
Are they feared ? loathed ? awed ?
Same problem again with Notoriety and Public Awareness (it makes a difference if they are seen as modern-day Robin Hood, terrorists or simple criminals, doesn't it ?)

Problem with all those solutions : How many different subsets are there, and how to divide them ? How to prevent a new sublass popping up next game and have you do it again all over ?

Now, is this necessary ? Well, I guess not. With a permanent game-crew, everyone knows what excactly they are famous/notorious for, and with a temporary one (conventions) you don't usually need or even want that level of detail.
The basics you really need are :
1) How many people know about the character inside the Shadows ?
2) How many people know about the character in the Public ?
3) What kind of reputation(s) does the character have (and does it differ between Shadows and Public) ?

RAW aproach is to interpret 1 as being Street Cred, 2 as being PA and 3 as being Notority. This doesn't need a change in the system, just a change in the way you read the fluff (okay, probably a fluff-rewrite ...) ... see a couple of posts above.

The alternate approach would be to invent a new rule.
If anyone does have an easy approach that I did miss, please, bring it forth, I'd love to exchange a kluge for some elagance.


ornot : read what I wrote about how it even makes sense that you could buy off PA with Notoriety and Street Cred - it just doesn't make sense when abused.
second ...
QUOTE ("ornot")
I do agree with you on intimidation tests being +vely modified by -ve qualities. That doesn't make any sense, but as a GM I'd just inflict dice pool penalties based on how obvious these things were. For example, someone who is scorched by btls. Word might get around that he is a bit of a headcase, although it might not be widely known that btls is what did it, he'd still be a bit scary. On the flipside, someone who is clearly obese (infirm) isn't going to frighten anyone much, although they might disgust them (shudders at the memory of some of the people he met on the T in Boston).

Even if I don't have a clue that you wanted to say with the first-and-a-half sentence, but for the rest, yes, that is what I wanted to express : you only get the penalties when the person you interact with know about them - by knowing your Rep on it or by knowing you.
On the other hand, if the person just recognized the name but knew no details ('that guy has some bad rep, but I don't know why"), he'd still be 'impressed' by your Notoriety - you always asume the worst ... and that's more along 'crazy and unreliable killer berserker' than 'infirm incompentent coward' ... probably because such a rep tends to change into 'dead fragger' pretty soon.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Phobos)
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (A Guy You Don't Want to Meet)
I make accidents happen. I make natural causes happen. I do not kill. My clients do not pay me to kill. Any idiot can kill. You can buy such an idiot for the cost of a cold sandwich and a hot gun. That idiot will be messy. My clients do not pay me to kill. They pay me for perfection. They pay me to leave no traces and not a single sign of anything unusual. When I complete a job no one has a clue that it was a job. My clients can never be sure that I actually did anything; as far as they know it could have been a coincidence. Still, they pay me. A coincidence is better than a mess.


I must wonder what kind of a rep this character would have using different systems.

Using RAW, that guy would have high Street Cred (clean work, reliability, subtlety)and Notoriety (Wetwork!!!), at probably about 2:1, and a near-no-nothing PA (at worst he exists as a rumour - like a ghost with no face or name).


But that isn't possible due to the way PA is calculated. A character with high Street Cred and high Noteriety will have high PA even if he is a ghost.

Of course, PA can represent urban legends and folklore rather than actual knowledge. If the public knew about someone who would kill whomever you wanted if you transfered $250,000 nuyen into a specific bank account and left a picture of the target on a specific martix node without knowing anything else then the character may still be a ghost in spite of high PA.
Phobos
QUOTE ("RAW @ pg. 258")
At the gamemasterís discretion, any exceptional efforts the character has made to keep her profile low and activities secret can be used to reduce this score. Likewise, if anything the character does is intentionally or inadvertently splashed on the news, the gamemaster should increase the score accordingly.

Read : Clean up after you, avoid gossip or kill it (literally or not), change IDs and hideouts ... all that stuff will reduce your PA.

Yes, it looks fluffy, but it really is the key part of the whole rule. 'GM's discretion' ... :rolleyes:
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