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Abschalten
I want to preface this post with a disclaimer of sorts. What you are about to read is simply a pure, hypothetical, mathematical concept. It's a fun exercise in number-crunching and testing the mechanics of SR4. I do not intend to convey in any way that the following character is a viable PC, or even a shadowrunner. In fact, chances are a player using this character as a basis for a PC of his own will get smeared. When I play Shadowrun and make characters, I make them to be realistic, multi-faceted individuals with reasonable numbers that reflect their backgrounds and personalities. Now and again I make myself go through little exercises like this, just for the hell of it. That said, on we go....

-------------------------------------

Meet EndZone. EndZone is a troll adept on the Athlete's Way who loves nothing else in this world like he loves football (american football, not what the americans call soccer). EndZone has dedicated his every waking moment to working out and building up his body to make him the ultimate killing machine on the field. When he's not in the gym routinely lifting entire weight benches as a warm-up, he often sits and meditates on his magical abilities, focusing himself on the game -- or rather in his mind, The Game.

I built EndZone using 400 BPs and the standard character generation rules. (To any people who decry how twinky and unrealistic the build is, I refer you to the disclaimer above.) This means I have followed the standard chargen rules and limited myself to the skill and attribute caps that your typical starting PC would.

I take half my 400 BPs and throw them straight into attributes, ending up with:

CODE

Body 9, Agility 3, Reaction 3, Strength 9
Charisma 2, Intuition 3, Logic 2, Willpower 5


I then take the Adept quality for 5 BPs, starting me at 1 Magic, which I then increase to 6, costing me 65 BPs. I raise Magic to 6 for the cap on adept abilities as well as for how it ties in later on to one of them. For the hell of it, I raise Edge to 4 for 30 BPs. Going troll already costs 40 BPs. So far I have spent 200+40+5+65+30 = 340 BPs.

For skills, I'm going to take Running at 6, which will run me another 24 BPs. Add in the Sprinting specialization, and that's 26 BPs. So we have spent a total of 340+24+2= 366 of our 400 BPs.

Now we take our adept abilities. We have 6 Magic, so we have a cap of 6 levels on any one ability. So we will take:

CODE

Improved Ability: Running 3             (.75 PP)
Improved Physical Attribute: Strength 2 (3 PP)
Boosted Attribute:  Strength 6          (1.50 PP)
Missile Parry 3                          (.75 PP)


Missile Parry is taken mostly just to be funny, since he'll be catching alot of footballs. The first three abilities are the most important ones.

I'm sure most people can see where we're going with EndZone right now, but for the sake of scientific rigor, I will explain in detail.

The reason for going troll is two-fold. First of all, they have the highest unaugmented and augmented maximums for Strength in the game. This is important, because Running (Sprinting) is linked to Strength (SR4, page 111 for skills and linked attributes, page 73 for racial attribute maximums.) Secondly, trolls have the best movement rates in the game at 15 meters per turn walking, 35 meters per turn running (page 138.)

The stadium is packed, and the roar of the crowds is an almost deafening wall of sound pressing down on the field. The excitement and emotions run high, and being in tune with the magical energies surging within him, EndZone feeds off of the immense temporary background count being generated here. He feels the support of his fans behind him, and his heart pounds with anxious anticipation. He looks at the AR overlay in his helmet's visor, studying the play the coach has chosen for the team to carry out in order to thwart the opposition's defense. The call is made, the ball passed, and it lands in his large, capable hands. This is it. This is what he is here to do. He yells triumphantly, digs his cleats into the turf, and lets the energy from that unseen world fill him completely, giving him Strength beyond mortal comprehension. Thundering the field like a runaway bullet train, he charges towards the other end of the field...

Since one can never really know how the dice are going to fall, the best we can do is estimate the results based on probabilities. It's fairly common knowledge that SR4's d6-based system has a 1 out of 3 (or 33%) chance per die of getting a hit. For the purposes of our results, remainders will be rounded down.

EndZone has a Strength of 9(11) to start off. Before he begins his charge down into the end of the field that is his namesake, he has to use his Boosted Attribute. Boosted Attribute (page 187) is (Magic)+(Boosted Rating), with each hit generating +1 on his Attribute for a number of Combat Turns equal to twice the number of hits. EndZone would have 6 Magic and 6 in Boosted Strength for a total of 12. 12/3 = 4 hits. This brings his Strength to the troll augmented cap of 15, the highest we can possibly go.

The Running rules (pages 117-118) state that with each hit on a Running (Sprinting) test, the number of meters that the person can run increases by 2 for that Combat Turn. EndZone's pool would be thus:

CODE

Strength (15) + Running (6) + Sprinting (2) + IA: Running (3) = 26 dice


Using our 1/3 ratio for hits, we can see that we'll get a mathematical average of 8.66 hits with 26 dice, which we will round down to 8 hits. This would work out to 18 dice that did not score a success.

This is where we will use our Edge. Using the Edge rules (page 67) we are allowed to spend a point to reroll the number of dice on any one test that did not get a success. So we'll roll our 18 again. 18 divides by 3 evenly to 6. Taking our previous hits and adding them to the post-Edge hits, we have 14 hits.

Using the Running rules, we have gained another 14 x 2 = 28 meters for this Combat Turn. 28 meters on top of the 35 trolls normally get is 63 meters per Combat Turn. A Combat Turn is 3 seconds long, so if we divide 63 meters by 3 seconds, EndZone is moving at 21 meters per second. For those of us who use United States measuring standards, 21 meters per seconds (according to Google calculator) is 46.9756621 mph (75.5999999 kph), or ~47 mph.

Your modern (as of 2006) football field is 100 yards, which works out to be 91.44 meters in the Metric system. 91.44 meters / 21 meters per second = 4.35428571 seconds it will take EndZone to move from one end of the field to the other. If he starts off on the 50 yard line, then half that down to 2.17714286 seconds.

However, we do have one small problem. As of SR3's Sprawl Survival Guide (page 35) the modern football field in Shadowrun is 150 meters by 60 meters (150 meters = 164.041995 yards.) Taking 150 meters and dividing it by the 21 meters per second that EndZone can run, we are looking at 7.14285714 seconds to run it from one end to the other, and half that (3.57142857 seconds) if he starts on the 75 meter line.

When EndZone completes the rush, he's going to have some problems, however. First off, when his Attribute Boost wears off, he'll have to suffer Drain from it. Page 187 in SR4 states "When the boost runs out, you must resist Drain equal to the Attribute Boost rating using Willpower + Body; each hit reduces the Drain Value by one. Attribute Boost Drain is Stun damage." This is somewhat nebulous. Does it mean the total value of the Attribute Boost ability (6) or the actual boost given by using it (4)? I'm going to assume by the capitalization (and just because I'm a dick) that it means the former, so EndZone has 6S he has to resist. Body (9) + Willpower (5) = 14 dice. 14 / 3 = 4.67, which we'll round down to 4 hits. He's gotten 2S (or 0S if we go with the actual boosted attribute).

Second, you can only Sprint for a number of turns equal to your Body plus hits on a Strength + Running (Long Distance) test (page 155). If he exceeds this, he begins to lose steam and take Stun damage. However, without rolling anything else, his Body alone gives him 9 full Combat Turns to run. This is incredibly more time than is needed for him to clear a Shadowrun football field.

An interesting side effect of the sheer SPEED at which he travels (63 meters a turn) means he might qualify for using the Ramming Damage table (SR4, page 160) when charging through the opposition. Consulting the table, 63 meters per turn falls within the 61-200 range, which gives the impacted target Body x 2 damage. Since EndZone has 9 Body, this would work out to be 18S damage (we'll assume the damage is Stun, even though the chances are it could be quite fatal.) The vehicle itself (EndZone) would have to resist half of that, or 9S with his Body + whatever Impact Armor rating his football uniform has. The target gets to use only half his Impact armor to resist, which means I anticipate many people jumping out of EndZone's way.

In any event, the idea of a troll adept football megastar that charges through the opposition makes me grin one of those big, bear-trap smiles. I have a huge soft spot for trolls and find them pretty underappreciated in Shadowrun games, so I'm happy I could, at least in theory, make one that excels at something other than killing people. smile.gif

The crowd erupts as EndZone makes it into the other team's territory, and the entire stadium glows from the astral like an atomic blast. Reaching up, EndZone removes his helmet, specially cut to accomodate his enormous horns, and he drops it on the turf torn up from the spikes on the bottom of his massive cleats. He reaches up to wipe the blood and spittle from his lips, and grits his teeth to ignore the pain of injury received from those who sought to bar his way. But looking at the way he came, he sees nothing but a swath in the field that HE carved in his quest for team glory. The unconscious forms of cybered athletes lay still in the field, thrown aside when they thought to make a name for themselves by stopping him, but then realized too late that it was in vain. Howling his triumph, the volume of the pandemonium all around him doubles, and he hefts the massive two kilogram ball up into the air, and basking in the glory as his team wins yet another game.
Aaron
[Aaron gives Abschalten a standing ovation.]
HalloranElder
We're not worthy, we're not worthy...

I think I might just swipe him and use him as an NPC in my game! smile.gif
Thorn Black
Brilliant.

Also stolen if you don't mind wink.gif
Ophis
Couple of notes...2070 football pitches are longer...
disappears to get Shadowbeat...
yeah pitch is now 160 yards(144meters). Plus being an adept he won't be popular with fans. magic is cheating see?

As a side point on the build, if he were to have multiple actions he could make multiple sprint tests. Dump the imp att str and buy imp ref 2 (+2 passes)

Assuming enough edge to roll each pass, this increases his running speed of 35 by 26 meters for each run action. since he has three of these thats an extra 78 metres for a total of 113 meters a round. This means he scores form any point past his teams 34 yard line in three seconds.

Just a thought.
Abbandon
This is an argument to support switching running to be based of agility instead of strength. I do not see a troll as being fast unless they have wired reflexes or similiar bioware.

ShadowDragon
QUOTE (Abbandon)
This is an argument to support switching running to be based of agility instead of strength. I do not see a troll as being fast unless they have wired reflexes or similiar bioware.

It's really not. It's more of an arguement to houserule running speeds. Even an unaugmented mundane human with 3 str and no running skill beats all real life world records (go ahead and do the math if you don't believe me). And besides, strength is linked to NO skills other than athletics, and agility has half of them.

This is something I noticed early on, so I made the running skill a free action that doesn't stack with itself (so you can't keep boosting your speed every phase). I also put trolls down to human speed (10/25), and increased a combat turn to 6 seconds. As a side note, to balance the troll nerf I make strength help with recoil compensation.
Ankle Biter
Where's his throwing/kicking skills?
He will need reflexes too as otherwise he will get tackled before he even starts moving. With his (relatively) low reactions, he could be on the floor before he has a chance to get up to speed.
Red
QUOTE (Ankle Biter)
Where's his throwing/kicking skills?
He will need reflexes too as otherwise he will get tackled before he even starts moving. With his (relatively) low reactions, he could be on the floor before he has a chance to get up to speed.

Given the specialized nature of football, Endzone would be a running back. He wouldn't really need kicking or throwing skills. Furthermore since football is a "melee" sport, even if an enemy beats him on the initiative test that doesn't mean they instantly reach him before he starts moving. Movement amorphously takes place turning a turn unlike specific actions like ranged attacks. It would take a wickedly over complex system to determine whether the defensive team could reach Endzone before he got up to speed.
Aaron
QUOTE (Abbandon)
This is an argument to support switching running to be based of agility instead of strength. I do not see a troll as being fast unless they have wired reflexes or similiar bioware.

What about magic? This troll is augmented with mana, specifically with the maximum possible Strength and Running, not to mention a high-level Strength boost.

Personally, I see no reason why a bigger-than-human-sized person with a large amount of supernatural help could run at a speed that is about twice the fastest speed on record for human beings in real life, and not faster than a wildebeest.
Brahm
Kinda makes the four-four 40 seem pretty damn slow, since it works out to about 1.8 seconds to cover 40 yeards. I don't know about ramming damage, but when someone tries to tackle him does he have to make a Crash Test? wink.gif

P.S. With Missile Parry:3 he'd make a great CB. cyber.gif
Nim
I worked up stats last night for EndZone's arch-nemesis, an elf adept specialized in intercepting the ball before the Unstoppable Troll Juggernaut can catch it. Alas, I don't have them all here. But the highlights:

* Agility 7, Magic 6.
* Gymnastics (Jumping) 6 (+2)
* Great Leap 6 (1.5 PP)
* Agility Boost 3 (0.75 PP)
* Improved Gymnastics 3 (0.75 PP)
* Missile Parry 4 (1 PP)
* Various choices for the last few points, but probably Improved Reaction 1 (2 PP)

There's no point in his taking more than 3 levels of Agility Boost. Magic 6 + Boost 3 = 9 dice giving 3 average hits, enough to hit his augmented maximum Agility of 10.

Dashing across the field to intercept (fortunately he doesn't have to OUTRUN the receiver, merely track the ball and be in the right place....), he makes a mighty running leap to intercept!

Agility (Boosted) 10 + Great Leap 6 + Gymnastics (Jumping) 11 = 27 dice, giving 9 hits.
Spend 1 Edge to reroll 18 dice, giving 6 hits. Total hits, 15.

His maximum vertical leap is 16/3 = 5 meters. His maximum horizontal leap is 16*1.5 = 24 meters.

The jumping rules don't specify how to handle a case where the character wants to jump both far AND high. but let's conservatively say the character has to split their hits between the two. Devoting 10 of the 15 hits to height hits the elf's maximum high jump of 5 meters (10/2). Putting the remaining 5 to distance gives us 10 meters (5*2).

A 5-meter highpoint in the arc of his leap is sufficient to not only clear the troll's head, but to avoid passing within 1 meter of him at any point...important, as that's the range that permits an Interception attack. And with Missile Parry 4, he should be able to pluck the ball out of the air with relative ease.

Now, if he's clever, he'll be headed directly to the sideline as fast as he can go. When EndZone inevitably catches up to him, the mauling the poor elf is going to take isn't going to be pretty, and he doesn't have NEARLY as much Body as a troll....
Aaron
While added IPs do not give a player more speed, they do offer more actions. That means more subdual attacks (tackle attempts) for the defense and more resets of that pesky multiple defense penalty for the ball carriers.
Nim
Amusingly, SR4 /does/ have rules for tackling...'Attacking to Knock Down' covers this nicely smile.gif
Ophis
QUOTE (Abbandon)
This is an argument to support switching running to be based of agility instead of strength. I do not see a troll as being fast unless they have wired reflexes or similiar bioware.

Have you ver seen serious sprinters? All the work they do is strength work, not agility co-ordination stuff. Sprinters are pretty much all built like power lifters, big legs and arms.

I agree abot running speeds in SR4 being nuts though. They're just stupidly fast drop. I can live with trolls being really quick sprinters, there should be rules about quickly changing directions while running that are agility based. Dwarves could have a bonus for their low centre of gravity...
Brahm
QUOTE
Dashing across the field to intercept (fortunately he doesn't have to OUTRUN the receiver, merely track the ball and be in the right place....), he makes a mighty running leap to intercept!


He's got to at least keep close because Wally "Grenades" Moon is sitting back in the pocket, with his wacked out Throw Weapon skill, and going to try get it to the reciever over him or even throw underneath and let EndZone try run it out. wink.gif

P.S. Heaven help Wally if someone ever manages to get past the O-line and sack him. smile.gif
Nim
*snicker* Adepts all around! Now, if the QB had Throwing Mastering, or whatever that power was called in MitS, where improvised thrown weapons did physical damage.... I'm not sure I'd want to TRY to intercept.

Shrike30
QUOTE (Abbandon @ Jun 26 2006, 02:41 AM)
This is an argument to support switching running to be based of agility instead of strength.  I do not see a troll as being fast unless they have wired reflexes or similiar bioware.

A big part of the physical training I'm going through right now is running. Trust me, it's strength based, not agility based.
Abschalten
QUOTE (Abbandon @ Jun 26 2006, 10:41 AM)
I agree abot running speeds in SR4 being nuts though. They're just stupidly fast drop. I can live with trolls being really quick sprinters, there should be rules about quickly changing directions while running that are agility based. Dwarves could have a bonus for their low centre of gravity...


The rules are crazy, but a hell of alot more sane than SR3's, at least in regards to movement rates.

The fastest I ever got in SR3 (with the help of another, rules-lawyery friend of mine) was 138 mph... food for thought.
James McMurray
QUOTE
This is where we will use our Edge. Using the Edge rules (page 67) we are allowed to spend a point to reroll the number of dice on any one test that did not get a success. So we'll roll our 18 again. 18 divides by 3 evenly to 6. Taking our previous hits and adding them to the post-Edge hits, we have 14 hits.


Of those 6 hits, 3 will explode as 6s and can be rolled again, giving one more hit.
Abschalten
The Rule of Six doesn't apply when you're using Edge to reroll dice that didn't get a hit.
Brahm
It also isn't much of a surprise to find such a rule at the bottom of the pile of senarios like these. Not quite as often as Called Shot, but often enough.

IMO the rule only serves to make high end dice pools even sillier. Once you get to about 15 or 16 dice everything below legendary levels of Edge make little or no sense to take any sort of risk and roll the Edge up front.
Abschalten
QUOTE (Brahm)
It also isn't much of a surprise to find such a rule at the bottom of the pile of senarios like these. Not quite as often as Called Shot, but often enough.

IMO the rule only serves to make high end dice pools even sillier. Once you get to about 15 or 16 dice everything below legendary levels of Edge make little or no sense to take any sort of risk and roll the Edge up front.

I was going for mathematical advantage, not common sense or restraint. I agree with you, though. With a large pool, it's statistically more advantageous to roll the Edge after than it would be to do so up front. Also, in my opinion, rolling up front is a rip-off, because on the average it'll take three exploding sixes to net you even one more hit, and this is at a smaller percentage than 33%.
Brahm
No call for restraint when you tack on warning up front that you are about to perform a Stupid Rules Trickô. smile.gif
stevebugge
QUOTE (Red)
QUOTE (Ankle Biter @ Jun 26 2006, 06:38 AM)
Where's his throwing/kicking skills?
He will need reflexes too as otherwise he will get tackled before he even starts moving. With his (relatively) low reactions, he could be on the floor before he has a chance to get up to speed.

Given the specialized nature of football, Endzone would be a running back. He wouldn't really need kicking or throwing skills. Furthermore since football is a "melee" sport, even if an enemy beats him on the initiative test that doesn't mean they instantly reach him before he starts moving. Movement amorphously takes place turning a turn unlike specific actions like ranged attacks. It would take a wickedly over complex system to determine whether the defensive team could reach Endzone before he got up to speed.

Having played a bit of Football myself I totally agree. There is a reason why you keep about 40-50 players on a roster even if only 11 are on the field at one time.

Quarterbacks do almost all the throwing, our buddy Endzone sounds more like a Running Back or being a Troll would make a legitimate Fullback (the guy usually going through the hole forst as a lead blocker for the smaller faster more nimble running back). Endzone would make a pretty good Tight End too (TE's play on the line, they block on some plays and run routes a receivers on others).

As a side note, hitting and tackling in football is probably enough of a specialized skill set that I personally would allow it as a specialization of Unarmed Combat that lacked any punches or kicks but was excellent for Grappelling and Knockdowns.
Lagomorph
I had played around with an adept with cyberlegs with hydraulic jacks for jumping. I'll see if I can recreate it and post it up here.
Nim
QUOTE (Lagomorph @ Jun 26 2006, 05:02 PM)
I had played around with an adept with cyberlegs with hydraulic jacks for jumping. I'll see if I can recreate it and post it up here.

Cool. I started to do that last night, and then hit the point where I was adding enhancements to the cyberlegs. Couldn't decide if personal augmented max Strength / Agility were hard limits to the stats of individual limbs as well as to the body as a whole, and sort of ground to a halt.

But sure. Two full cyberlegs, plus a torso. Max hydro-jacks and Agility, and then as much Strength as will still fit. Reflex Recorder (Gymnastics). Synthcardium x3. Enhanced Articulation. The hydro-jacks are actually more gross than an Adept with Great Leap, because the math on the maximum distance works differently.

Greap Leap adds to Agility for the purpose of calculating max distance. An elf with Agility 10 and Great Leap 6 has a max running jump of (10 + 6) * 1.5 = 24 meters. Hydro-jacks increase max distance by 20% per level. I don't recall that they give an example, but presumably this means the same elf (now with Agility 10 cyberlegs and Rating 6 jacks) has a max distance of (10 * 1.5) + (10 * 1.5) * (6 * 0.2) = 15 + 18 = 33 meters. That assumes that you lump the percentage increases together, and Rating 6 jacks give +120%. The other alternative is that you compound the increases, but that's even more gross and probably not what they had in mind.

Let's see:
Agility 10.
Gymnastics (Jumping) 6 (8)
Reflex Recorder (Gymnatics) (+1)
Synthcardium 3 (+3)
Enhanced Articulation (+1)
Hydro-jacks 6 (+6)

If memory serves, the Synthcardium, Enhanced Articulation, and the Jacks give bonus dice, but don't actually increase skill, so they don't run into problems with the maximum augmented skill value. So, all of that should stack.

That gives the cybered jumper a total of 10+8+1+3+1+6 = 29 dice...2 more than the maxed out starting-build Adept. That's not enough to actually score an extra hit all of the time, BUT he also has a higher maximum (33 meters to the Adept's 24), and the Adept was already limited by that maximum when spending edge.

Now, the Adept can eventually Initiate, increase his Magic, and buy further levels of Great Leap. Our cyber-athlete won't be getting any better than this, because he already has the maximum rating in the useful 'wares.
tjlanza
QUOTE (Abschalten)
The fastest I ever got in SR3 (with the help of another, rules-lawyery friend of mine) was 138 mph... food for thought.

To be fair... Mr. 138 MPH was not running... He was on skates. And it can get even crazier if you allow regular old inline skates to bestow the same Running Multiplier. And let's not even talk about Olympic speed skaters (on ice).
Cochise
QUOTE (tjlanza)
To be fair... Mr. 138 MPH was not running... He was on skates. And it can get even crazier if you allow regular old inline skates to bestow the same Running Multiplier. And let's not even talk about Olympic speed skaters (on ice).

*hmm* 138 mph equals about 222 km/h ... about 62m/s or 186m per combat turn ... thus an effective quick of about 30 with the skating multiplier of 6 for "running" ...

Not good enough to beat someone who can actually run that fast (and faster) under SR3 rules as a starting character ... without a surface suitable for skating ...
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Cochise)
QUOTE (tjlanza)
To be fair... Mr. 138 MPH was not running... He was on skates. And it can get even crazier if you allow regular old inline skates to bestow the same Running Multiplier. And let's not even talk about Olympic speed skaters (on ice).

*hmm* 138 mph equals about 222 km/h ... about 62m/s or 186m per combat turn ... thus an effective quick of about 30 with the skating multiplier of 6 for "running" ...

Not good enough to beat someone who can actually run that fast (and faster) under SR3 rules as a starting character ... without a surface suitable for skating ...

That's where Acme's line of rocket skates come into play.
Cochise
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
That's where Acme's line of rocket skates come into play.

Which don't happen to be part of canon SR3 material, while the things that I'm refering to are canon material to the end ...

Just as EndZone ..
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Ankle Biter @ Jun 26 2006, 06:38 AM)
He will need reflexes too as otherwise he will get tackled before he even starts moving. With his (relatively) low reactions, he could be on the floor before he has a chance to get up to speed.

Nah. Maybe they've changed the rules have changed by 2060 or so, but today at least, you can't tackle a player unless they have the ball.

However, if lack of actions turns out to be a problem for him, the coach would just put him in as a running back in the I formation. He'll be up to full speed before the QB ever hands off the ball.
mfb
i understand this is largely just an exercise in numbers. anyone who's considering actually playing this guy should keep in mind that adepts are pretty unpopular in the sporting world; most teams will find an excuse to get rid of them--or, more likely, will never hire them in the first place.
ThreeGee
QUOTE
adepts are pretty unpopular in the sporting world


Since when? According to Sprawl Survival Guide, an SR3 source book I know, the only restrictions in American Football are cyberlimbs.
Butterblume
QUOTE
Improved Physical Attribute: Strength 2 (3 PP)


Probably crunchier to get bioware like augmented muscles and synthacardium for Endzone instead, and similar stuff. Haven't got my book right now, but that would be (for a starting character) +2 Strength, and +3 dice for athletic tests, at a cost of less than 9BP and one magic point (0,7 essence). Also, it frees 2 magic points...

There is more usefull stuff in the book, perhaps enhanced articulation (pricy) or a balance augmenter (earware).
mfb
QUOTE (ThreeGee)
According to Sprawl Survival Guide, an SR3 source book I know, the only restrictions in American Football are cyberlimbs.

the more detailed info in Shadowbeat explains that, while you can't actually fire someone for being an adept, they're unpopular among both the fans and the players (and that it's pretty easy to fire an adept for trumped-up reasons). further, adepts who get any cyberware at all--datajack, implanted radio, cyber-replacement toenail--are completely disqualified.
SL James
What the Hell are you talking about? Cyberware was unshered into the NFL with a quarterback who had a cyberarm. After he tossed a game-winning 99-yard pass, the owners realized that cyber was pretty damn cool. There's nothing in SSG that I can find that even mentions cyberlimbs except that there are linemen in the NAFL with hydraulic jacks in their arms.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Abschalten)
QUOTE (Abbandon @ Jun 26 2006, 10:41 AM)
I agree abot running speeds in SR4 being nuts though. They're just stupidly fast drop. I can live with trolls being really quick sprinters, there should be rules about quickly changing directions while running that are agility based. Dwarves could have a bonus for their low centre of gravity...


The rules are crazy, but a hell of alot more sane than SR3's, at least in regards to movement rates.

The fastest I ever got in SR3 (with the help of another, rules-lawyery friend of mine) was 138 mph... food for thought.

I can make a character that in the normal rules in 3ed go faster than the speed of sound on foot.

Idea my mage would run in the low 70ies before using movement.
mfb
QUOTE (SL James)
Cyberware was unshered into the NFL with a quarterback who had a cyberarm.

not quite. it was ushered in by a QB with a rebuilt arm. ThreeGee is right; even in Shadowbeat, limb replacement was out. extreme limb modification was A-OK, but not straight replacement.
Kyrn the Second
Now I'm curious as to Endzone would compare to a SR4 version of the Ivory Coast Crusher. Of course ole Sammy's probably retired to run some car dealership by now...
Drraagh
Here's a little food for thought for you people talking about adepts and cyberlimbs and such not being allowed in NFL and such.

There are a couple different games (video games and table top games) out there that are sports, but are a more violent version of it. Like the games M.U.D.S. (Mean Ugly Dirty Sport) and Blood Bowl are two football style games that I could see these sort of characters playing in. Same with the Mutant League Hockey and Football games. There's also the recently released Chaos League game. So, there are some games I can see being brought to SR for people like that to play in. After all, wasn't that sort of what Urban Brawl was for?
HalloranElder
I'm looking at Shadowbeat at the moment.

It opens the Football section (pg 61) with the line: "Where basesball resisted cyber, football embraced it with open arms", so that should give you a bit of an indication of the use of cyberwear. smile.gif

According to Shadowbeat, complete cybered limbs are out, but just about everything else is allowed, including "grown" items, so I assume that means that Biowear is fine.

Edged, powered and missle implants are out though.

However, on page 62 it states that "Open use of magic in pro sports is illegal across the board" and then clarifies this to mean no use of spells, no aid from spirits and no other magical assistance.

The "official" ruling on Adepts is that anyone claiming to be one cannot be fired from the team for that reason, as long as they have no cyberwear at all.

So, EndZone as he stands is fine, though whether or not the fans accept him is another matter.

The fact that he's a Troll is potentially a problem. Most of the pro sports are almost all human, with Shadowbeat stating there are a total of 78 Troll or Ork pro-football players.

Assuming there are 35 players in a team (11 offensive, 11 defensive and another 13 specialists) and 26 teams in both the UCAS and Freedom Leagues (pg 61), that means that Trolls and Orcs are 8.6% of the entire teams, well below the "average" 15 to 20% that those two races usually make up.

You would expect that Orcs and Trolls would make up a fairly large percentage of a pro Football team, but it doesn't seem to be.

I'll stop rambling now. cool.gif
Drraagh
QUOTE (HalloranElder)
You would expect that Orcs and Trolls would make up a fairly large percentage of a pro Football team, but it doesn't seem to be.

Probably not violent enough for them? A troll charging down a field would probably be more apt to choose to leave a hole in guy than just tackle him. ;P Seroisly though, violence could be an aspect, but as for trolls playing, I can see their size being a problem. They're at least what, a good foot or two over humans? So, passes are harder to intercept between two trolls for example.
Red
The ability for orks and trolls to perform atheletically just cannot be compared to human performance. Troll football players will simply kill human players. There is almost no contest. It might be more viable for orcs and trolls to play in different leagues. If males and females are segregated in sports due to performance differences in the two sexes, then certainly metaspecies would qualify for division.
Moon-Hawk
Definitely. The olympics must've gotten five times bigger.
Sports, too.
Well, maybe not five times. Nobody watches dwarf pro-basketball. Well, not sober, anyway.
James McMurray
Dwarf Probaketball probably has a huge following, but it airs on Comedy Central slongside midget wrestling.
Samoth
Shadowbeat is 15 years out of date, and with the advances in magic and technology it's not hard to assume that the rules would have changed over the years.
Kyrn the Second
I'm pretty sure the Olympics are human only. And in canon the most famous football player of the 50s is a troll w/a bunch of cyber named Samuel Lamptey. A lot of fuss was made over the legality (football wise) of his titanium bone lacing, so that would imply that not all cyber is just blanketly accetped. And fans hate adepts. They're obviously cheating, as they're using something not everyone else can go out and get. Yes they're exceptional, but they're removed from the common man. Now Bob the famous QB, well, if if I work out real hard and practice every day after school I can grow up to be a great baller just like him! All I need to do is get a good enough scholarship and Notre Dame (or whoever) will pay for my cyber so I can be a legend too! Draco the dark however, I can never be like him, so why should I praise him?

Most fans, at least at some point, can point to a player and say, "When I was ten I wanted to be that guy." My cousin wanted to seven feet tall and black until he was like fourteen, when Shaq betrayed his fans and left Orlando.

But, uh, yeah, grab Prime Runners and check out Lamptey's stats. They're sick. The fluff that he "made the last thirty yards with three defensive linemen hanging on him" is actually plausible.
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