What is the advantage of getting a power focus instead of a spellcasting one?

The cost of a power focus is 25,000 per force point. It adds dice to all magic rolls (except for counterspelling - which is specifically mentioned). It does not add to drain tests, since they are not magic rolls. It does not add to force level.

Spellcasting foci on the other hand cost 15,000 per force point. They add to the dice pool for spellcasting (or drain) tests.


For less cost you can purchase a spellcasting and counterspelling focus at the same force level as a power focus.

Maybe I'm missing a lot of tests that involve magic but there don't seem to be that many others that are routinely performed to me. Spellcasting and counterspelling seem to be the main ones.

You forget that Spellcasting Foci only help with one of five kinds of spells (Combat, Detection, Health, Illusion, Manipulation).
Power Foci help with all spell types.

- You need one Spellcasting focus per spell catagory, Power foci are not spell type specific.
- A Power foci also add to your Summoning/Binding/Banishing tests.
- When you are casting a spell you can gain dice from both a Power focus and a Spellcasting focus. You do this by allocating the Power focus dice to the casting pool test and the Spellcasting focus dice to the drain test pool.

EDIT Also you are limited in the number of foci you can bind at one time. Multipurpose foci become very important if you want to, for example, have multiple Counterspelling focuses to cover off the different spell catagories. Personally I think Power foci are somewhat underpriced.

Indeed, the ability to add dice to so many spellcasting and conjuring tests makes the power focus much more versatile than a spellcasting focus - and at char-gen, you are basically comparing a force: 3 spellcasting focus (9 points to buy and 3 points to bond) vs. a force: 2 power focus (10 points to buy and 2 points to bond). So for merely one die less, you get a lot more options.

Also, one minor clarification. A power focus won't aid you in counterspelling a hostile spell as it is cast (spell defense), but it will aid you if you try to dispel a sustained or quickened spell.

Thanks for the clarifications - I had missed the part about having a specific category of spells per focus. Gosh it is right in plain site:embarassed: Only excuse would have been that my character was focusing on Combat spells only at the time.

Minor point of interest:

Buying and bonding the power focus at chargen will net you a huge karma discount relative to doing so post-chargen.

I thought that only one focus can apply to a test at a time and I didn't notice anything saying that the power focus breaks that rule.

Only one focus per dice pool. Casting a spell involves multiple dice pools: spellcasting test and drain test.

Actually there is almost no point in getting anything *but* a power focus (not counting sustaining and weapon foci {EDIT: and counterspelling foci, of course}). It's just so much better than all the other ones.

Bye
Thanee

Besides, of course, using Spellcasting Foci to use on drain tests. Being as you're likely going all out with that POwer Focus of yours that drain is gonna get up there.

A couple of points- Counterspelling foci (for combat and manipulation spells) are just as important esp. since power foci don't effect counterspelling.
I personally would count casting a spell and resisting drain as a single action and therefore would not allow the spellcasting foci to count towards the drain resistance if using the power focus to cast the spell. I don't recall it saying specifically that you can't do this, but I feel that it would start to break down if you could use both foci.
Alll my mage characters start with a fc 2 power focus. then at least one sustaining focus and maybe a countespelling focus or 2

I was objecting to using the power focus to boost your spellcasting dice and the spellcasting focus to boost your drain dice at the same time. It may be RAW to allow that, but in my mind (an unusual place indeed) you can only use one focus when casting a spell, whether you use it to increase your dice for successes or to resist drain doesn't matter; you can only use one focus. (Obviously this doesn't apply when casting a spell into a sustaining focus since the sustaining focus isn't supplementing your dice.)
As far as kicking the hacker out of the team, a mage isn't going to be as good as a decker because of the lack of BP's to get skills with unless they take analyze devise which I think is over powered anyways.

yeah I went and looked at the rules last nite, and according to the raw you could use both. I think it's a cheesy w3ay to get around the only one focus rule.

I think the rule actually indicates that you cannot use both. Consider that you can "withold dice from your spelcasting pool to use in the drain resistance test." So in order to use a spellcasting focus to assist a drain resistance test you have to add the dice to your spellcasting pool and then withold them in order to use them for drain resistance. However the Power focus adds to your magic directly and therefore is adding dice to the spellcasting pool. Thus you would be adding dice to the same pool from both the power focus and the spellcasting focus, and nix, not allowed.

I'll have to look through the manual again to be sure. But if I were at the table I'd rule that way and require my player to look up evidence to the contrary for future reference.

To followup with specifics from the rule book:

I don't have my book with me, but isn't the actual rule that you can't apply more than 1 focus towards a single dice pool? or a test?

Not a task or action.

In which case the rules make sense, where the spellcasting focus states you can apply the bonus to one or the other dice pools (but not both)..

The rule is that you can't apply more than one focus to a single dice pool.

The spellcasting focus does not say you can apply the dice to one or the other dice pool, it says exactly what I quoted.

It specifically adds it's force to the spellcasting and ritual spellcasting dice pools, and you may choose to withold them from the pool to allow you to use them to resist drain. It does not give you an option as to which pool to add to, it gives you an option to move the dice from one pool to another.

So it does not matter if it does not say anything about only one focus per "task or action". You cannot get around the fact that a spellcasting focus adds to the spellcasting dicepool and a power focus adds to the same dice pool no matter how you try and justify it. They just are not compatable under the rules, and that is what is intended.

So if are "withholding" the dice isn't that the same as "not applying" them?

That is what the question is then - is withholding the same as "not applying"?

Logic dictates that if you withhold something then it is no longer applied.

Hence you can indeed apply power focus to the spellcasting dice pool and the spellccasting focus to the resist drain dice pool and fall completely within the rules since no more than one focus is being applied to a single dice pool.

Unless you are specifically stating that the spellcasting focus applies to both the spellcasting and resist drain dice pools - which is not what the text states.

So if your interpretation is correct it does not even need to be a power + Spellcasting it can be just two spellcasting because I'm witholding the dice of one power focus so it's never really adding to the "Spellcasting Pool".

Based on that Faulty logic I could have a magic 6 character with 6 combat spellcasting foci (say rating 6 for example) all bonded and active, and then withold 24 dice (4 foci times 6 each) to add 24 meters to the area of effect of a fireball say. Then still get 6 bonus to drain by witholding those and then 6 bonus dice to the spellcasting test.

So if witholding is like never applying then the intent is obviously missed, so that could not be correct.

Well what you said is that witholding dice from a pool is like never adding them, allowing you to use a spoellcasting focus for drain where the mechanic required to do that is to add the dice to the spellcasting dicepool then withold them for drain.

Well there is also a mechanic for changing parameters of a spell such as the size of the area of effect that says you can withold a die from the spellcasting pool to allow you to increase or decrease the radius of effect by 1 meter.

Thus where you say that witholding is like never adding them to the pool I can have as many spellcasting foci as I have magic rating apply all their dice to increasing area of effect by witholding those dice from the pool, and thus they never add to the pool and by your interpretation this would not fail the test of not adding more than one foci to a single dice pool.

So in my example the 4 foci used to enhance area never add any dice to any pools because they are all witheld. That example is presented as a counter example to your witholding is like never adding principle.

The purpose is if your mechanic interpretation allows something obviously flawed then your mechanic interpretation must be flawed.

So many words... look, the rules aren't crystal but I'd say very clear here:

both from pg. 191:

under Bonding:
"Regardless of the number of foci a magician may possess, only one focus may add its Force to any single dice pool."

under Spell Foci:
"Spellcasting Foci add their force to a magician's Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain."

What is not spelled out completely but is strongly implied here is that 1. The ONLY dice pools which a Spellcasting Foci can add its dice to are the Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting pools. After application, the dice may be withheld to help with Drain. "Drain" is not a pool that foci dice can be added to, because no such pool is mentioned in the text under Foci.

Therefore, only one focus can add its dice to the Spellcasting pool at a time, and its dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help with drain.
end of discussion.

Thank you 2bit, you see my point, what irdeggman failed to do was read the sentence on page 191 before the one he quoted which I quoted eairler.

"Spellcasting foci add their force to a magician's Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools."

Thats is the sentence before the one you quoted. So they are IN the spellcasting dice pool if you use the focus, regardless what you do with them. But a power focus is in the dicepool too because it adds to any pool in which your magic is involved (Magic + Spellcasting). So before any witholding occurs it violates the no two foci may add their rating to the same pool.

Your claim was that witholding for the drain test means they were never in that pool to begin with. My argument is that if you don't count withheld dice as in a dice pool then it means that witholding dice to alter effects is the same wording, "Witholding" that it follows that you can do the rediculus and use 6 foci for the same spell and that is a clear violation. So your interpretation that the witheld dice were never in the spellcasting pool must be false.

Your quote is fine, and your logic may be valid if it were not for the one sentance before your quote that I put above. You cannot choose to ignore that sentance. In this case it is crystal clear.

A power focus adds its force to any test involving the owners magic. A spellcasting focus adds its force to the spellcasting dice pool. You may not have two foci add their force to the same pool. Power foci is not compatable with spellcasting foci.

Assisting in the drain resistance test requires that the dice be witheld from the spellcasting dice pool. The same way that dice are witheld to alter an area of effect. If you allow your witholding to count then it also by the same logic requires the broken ability to use 6 spellcasting foci on the same spell so long as 4 of them affect area of effect, one spellcating test, one drain resistance test. Obviously your ability to whithold the dice and not have them count as two foci in the spellcasting pool is broken as well.

It's spelled out exactly, I'm not sure I understand why you don't see that.

The spellcasting focus does one thing and one thing only:

"Spellcasting foci add their force to a magician's Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools."

That is the operative sentance. Now you have some options with the dice that come from the focus. But that does not change what the focus does. Wether you use the dice for drain by witholding the dice or not they are in that pool.

That is where the counter example of AOE spells comes in, if you say witheld dice are never in the pool then you create a contradiction.

If A implies B, and B is false, then A is false.

You imply witholding dice never exist in the original pool. That implies that I can use 4 foci to extend area of effect. That is clearly false so your premise is clearly false.

Pg 54

“When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice pool. The dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifier that may apply.”

Pg 174

“Step 6: Resist Drain
Magicians roll Willpower + an attribute appropriate to their tradition (Charisma for shamans and Logic for mages) to resist drain. . . . .Note that wound modifiers or sustained spells have no effect on the character’s dice pool for Drain Resistance Tests.”

So resisting drain is a test and thus has a dice pool.

Pg 191

“Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with drain.”

Instead of changing the text as previously mentioned if the following is done:

“Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools or they may be used for the drain test. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with drain.”

Note by adding these 9 words the intent is clear, the first sentence actually makes sense with the second sentence by actually explaining how withholding dice works (which is consistent with text on pg 173 under area spells when it talks about reducing or expanding the radius of effect. The text functions perfectly within and with all of the other rules for dice pools and tests. No other explanation is required to make the rules fit or further clarify what is meant.

“The caster can reduce or expand the base radius by 1 meter for every die withheld from the Spellcasting Test. Dice expended to change the radius of effect cannot be used in any related test, such as resisting Drain for that spell.”

So the impression I get is that you really want to be able to use a power focus in conjunction with a spellcasting focus, and are willing to change the rules to make it possible?

Basically you want to add text to a clear, and in all likelyhood as intended, rule so as to allow this foci addition that you wish existed?

Consider that your change would allow two spellcasting foci to be used for the same spell, and not just power + spellcasting. That can not be as intended.

I think that what really gets me most about this whole thing is, how many posts does it take to get to be a moving target already. Sheesh.

Holy crap... I'm going to help bring you to the light if it's the last thing I do.

They use the word "withheld" specifically so that you can only use one focus per spell. They want you to be able to use focus dice for drain, but only at the cost of withholding them from the Sepllcasting test. If you could apply a seperate focus for the drain task, they would have said the focus can add its force to the magician's Drain Pool, not withheld from the Spellcasting attempt to help with drain. One Spell, one Summon, one Binding - ONE FOCUS.

"Summoning foci add their Force in dice to any attempt to Summon the appropriate type of spirit. These dice may be used for the Summoning Test, or they may be withheld to help resist Drain."

"Binding foci add their Force to the magician's Magic + Binding dice pool when binding an appropriate type of spirit, or the extra dice may be withheld to resist Drain."

"Spellcasting foci add their Force to the Magician's Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively, or withheld to help the magician with Drain."

You can't apply any of these dice to the Drain Pool. You apply them to the Summoning/Binding/Spellcasting attempt, and then may choose to withhold them before rolling. Withholding is making a tradeoff. You're trading dice from the success test to get more dice on the Drain test. By the same token, you can withhold dice from the success test to get an increase or decrease in spell radius.

Spellcasting foci dice are added to the Spellcasting dice pool because that's the dice pool the book says it can be added to. The Spellcasting dice pool. You get a bonus, though, when it comes time to cast the spell, you can trade dice from the spellcasting test to help resist drain.

Heh, 2bit I don't think that he's convincable. I assume he's got a focus addicted character concept he's dying to play rule violation or not. But he seems more willing to change the rule than he is to play by it.

I think the issue at hand is no longer what the rule says or what its designers intend but rather, irdeggman wants it to be a certain way. He believes the game owuld be better if two foci were allowed per spell, and as such he's a perfect cantidate for a house rule.

I think the key to resolution of this conflict is that we need to convince irdeggman that he does not need to seek approval from this forum in order to create a house rule, only the approval of his GM.

If he actually believes that the rule is intended to allow two foci per spell, and that it's an error on the part of the designers, then likewise we cannot help him.

Since the two of you don't want to drop this. And I am starting to get tired of the implied insults here - if you check the posts you will find that I never said that "you didn't get it" or that you "want to play rule violation".

I am also not the only person who has gone with my interpretation on this thread (despite the fact that the two of you seem to be implying that).

Then please instead of looking at the text under foci and applying - look for a definition of "withheld" in the rules and what that constitutes.

The only place I can find it is under the expanding a spell radius section.

“The caster can reduce or expand the base radius by 1 meter for every die withheld from the Spellcasting Test. Dice expended to change the radius of effect cannot be used in any related test, such as resisting Drain for that spell.”

Now under pretty much any definition of contributions to dice pools I can find - if the dice don't count towards a test then they aren't "applied".

What does Withheld mean?

Oh and for the recod my Mystic Adept has a force 2 power focus and force 3 sustaining focus (for his Increased relfexes spell) and 2 pp worth of adept abilities with a magic rating of 5 and spellcasting 5 (combat) with a combat fetish.


So I am pretty sure that no matter how you read the rules or define withheld that my PC is not illegal in any way.
So

Well if you think we're insulting then we'll never convince you. Please reread the sections on spellcasting and foci. Every time you use two foci to cast a spell, you make the developers cry.

As it stands I don't believe any rule prohibits the use of a sustaining focus with either a spellcasting or power focus. To my knowledge the only rule that prevents multiple foci is the rule that no two foci may add their force to a single dice pool.

I don't believe you can transfer a sustained spell to the sustaining focus however, the description as I recall it indicates that you declare the sustaining focus at time of casting. I'll check the book when I get home and see about it, but I'm pretty sure that's the description.

that's right Demerzel

you're right demerzel, but I said it much earlier. Then waffled.

pg 191

"Sustaining Foci are unusual in that they do not add any dice to a test. Instead, a magician may cast a spell through a sustaining foci and the focus will sustain the spell for him. A spell sustained by such a focus does not inflict a dice pool modifier for sustaining the spell. A spell sustained by a sustainng focus cannot have a Force greater that that of the focus. If a spell sustained by a focus is disrupted, it ends; the focus is still bound to its master and she may use it to sustain another spell."

{You gotta love the editing in this book - they can't even keep the genders straight within the same paragraph - one time the magician is a "he" and then the next the magician is a "she". No wonder there is such confusion over the rules }


The rule on using more than one foci for a spell is on pg 191 under "bonding"

"Regardless of the number of foci a magician may posses, only one focus may add its Force to any single dice pool."

And I still say that when you withhold dice from a dice pool you are no longer adding the focus' Force to the spell. And that is the point of contention in this disagreement.