Mystic adept Tuskers runs into a dark room that he believes his target to have run into. The door shuts behind him and there is no light at all anymore (-6 for full darkness even though he is an ork). His Perception dice pool is effectively zero once the room starts filling up with smoke from his enemy's thermal smoke grenade (another -2 for heavy smoke). The door is stuck and he is forced to stand and fight. Tuskers wants to use a Death Touch spell against his target but cannot see him physically so he switches to Astral Perception. Now his enemy's aura is obvious, but reading the rules I'm confused as to what happens next.

Can Tuskers target his enemy by his aura alone?

What kind of negatives does he receive?
He gets the -2 for the touch attack being performed while Astrally Perceiving, but what else?

I know spells are effected by visibility modifiers, but while Astrally Perceiving which ones apply?
He can see his target's aura despite the darkness, but does that darkness give any modifiers?
Is the aura obscured by the thermal smoke and therefore give a negative?

I'm not sure about the darkness, but the thermal smoke definitely still obscures astral vision. (Much in the same way that things like desks and walls are still opaque on the astral).

Just a quick FYI, the rulebook expressly says that in the interest of fairness and quickness, when you have multiple conditions, just use the largest one. So at a -6, not -8.

As for the rest, bear in mind that I'm not reading the rulebook here...

But I would say that no visibility modifiers from darkness apply for spells that do not require touching the target. An aura's a bit bigger than the person, so it's not perfect. If he's trying to make physical contact with the guy, I'd say the -6 from total darkness applies. If he dosen't need to physically touch him, -2 from the smoke.

That not stacking modifiers is an optional rule. i wouldn't implement it in this case because there are only two modifiers. Not too much math going on here nor time thinking about it. A rule designed to make sure you're not spending ten minutes flipping through the book looking for appropriate mods wouldn't really be needed here.

You can't target someone's aura with a melee attack without suffering darkness modifiers, even while Astrally Perceiving? That seems odd....Does anyone else agree with that?

When astrally perceiving, you do not suffer the -6 for darkness, but the -2 for distraction.
Thermal smoke has the same effect on the astral as on the physical - that is, if you can see through it physically, you can see through it astrally. I you can't, then it's probably even worse on the astral, at least if someone spread it with the intention of blocking sight (quite usual, I guess), as his intention might leave enough of an imprint.

Oh ... smoke of any kind sometimes tends to look a little bit stranger in the astral than in the physical, as it sometimes seems more like an entity than just a bunch of floating particles ... at least until it starts dissipating.

During a gaming session the other night my friend found where in the book my particular dilemma is addressed. Here's the quote (pg. 173):

It seems unfair to apply both total darkness and thermal smoke. And have them stack. I tend to have visual penalties stack but cap out at -6 where you may as well close your eyes.

However once he goes to astral perception the darkness is irrelevant. I cant workout what the penalty for the smoke should be. He has lost the ability to see normally (SR4 p182 “it is not possible to see both at the same time) I would probably apply the penalty for smoke with a useful vision system (-2) to the melee test, I would not call this task purely physical as your trying to bring your astraly active hand into contact with the bright aura of your target so the -2 for taking a mundane action while preserving dos not apply.

There would be no penalty to the spell casting test.

Edward

PS Samaels Ghost, that quote was in reference to a projecting magician. a preserving magician is dual natured and thus not soly in astral space, you can cast direct affect spells all you want.

Edward

Except if you're dual natured and your opponent is not then it is your Physical form and his physical form between which the spell takes place. You do have a point with the “it is not possible to see both at the same time" quote. But if I were to allow a dual natured person to cast on a physical target he could not otherwise see....I'm just not sure. I'm certain that the smoke applies in both planes and it's not the specific modifier that i'm worried about.....I don't think.

What if I was blind? Could I never cast on a physical target because I could not see them? A blind astrally perceiving mage can see AP even though he's blind, but can't cast on physical targets? I think that makes your suggestion, Edward, more convincing for me. You're right, thanks!

The rule book s talking about astrally projecting magicians there. When astrally projecting, you can't target things in the physical world, they need some astral presence first: dual natured being (spirits, certain para-critters, astrall percieving mages) and active foci are the typical examples of things with an astral presence.

If you are just astrally percieving you can target things without an astral presence since your meat body is still right there.

Good point about my quote not really being relevant here, too. Thanks

Hello all. I'm new to these forums, but not to SR in general. Been playing SR4 for awhile also. I don't think we've ever used a modifier for smoke while astrally perceiving. I can see the argument that since it's physically in the way, it should affect LOS, but I would see a big difference between smoke and a wall. A wall is opaque in Astral, but is a window? If yes, this is understandable. A person cannot pass their hand through a window. However, smoke would barely register on the astral plane, I would think. A) you can pass right through it physically, B) it's degree of processing would make it somewhat transparent anyway, no? Now, a bacteria cloud (a la FAB) would render a penalty because it's a living thing. Not to mention its ability to trap you cold. I would essentially rule that asid efrom the distraction modifier, physical obstacles, and "life glow" (the brightness of a large area of living things), Astral Perception has very few modifiers from the physical world. At least, so was my understanding from previous editions. Have the rules changed significantly?

I think the point made is that if you can see through it on the physical plane than you can seee through it on the astral. Following that same logic smoke causes difficulty.