I have a implanted commlink. Becuase this implant directly interfaces with my nervous system I may command it using mere thought.

Can someone make complex actions such as editing photos, monitoring electronic conversations and hacking all with only a few mental commands?
Does that mean I can sit quietly in the corner booth of a cafe drinking my coffee while hacking into my target's commlink from across the room, all without looking like i'm doing anything more than daydreaming?
I can have mental conversations with teammates without looking like I'm doing anything more than that?
Are the thought to e-command conversions that accurate now (2070)?

It all seems too perfect. I was just watching GitS and looking up info on it and got the impression that cyberbrains weren't just metal machine implants. They also consisted of brain tissue. I'm not sure how that works but it looks like the Implanted Commlink in SR4 is GitS's cyberbrain sans the memories/personality as data part. You can't hack a person's ghost SR4 but you can hack their functionality. The Major in Ghost in the Shell can hack your cyber brain with out a sign from her physical body. She and her teammates communicate using mental e-mails all the time. Being as GitS is set in about 2029ish I would say that this kind of interfacing would be possible, but what does that mean in game terms?

Also as a side note, would it be plausible for there to be an implanted version of the Skinlink accessory that turns mental commands into personal electrical field signals? That way a commlink and sim module could be worn, commanded by your SkinNet and then disposed of if needed? What's more it would allow for the direct brain-to-device commanding of skinlink enabled devices. Or would an intermediate commlink be required to translate the thoughts? I would think that such a device would already have tranlating capabilities but....

What do you all think?

Well, part of this will be a familiarity issue. In that once you have dealth with such devices 'for a while' you will be able to do these things. Don't expect your everage pre-teen (or whatever age you get a datajack these days) to be able to do it, but any adult, with years of experience dealing this DNI machines will probably lose most telltales. Of course, most people will probably still have 'tells' since there is no reason for most people to totally train themselves out of it.

Maybe add a 5? (or less) point flaw, that gives you a 'tell' when you are commanding DNI devices if you really want to model that sort of thing.

I want to see examples of what you are trying to accomplish so i can see what the hell your talking about heh. It seems like your just over complicating things but maybe there is rhyme to your reason.

Remember that you'd be basically using AR if you're trying to look normal. (Hope you remembered to get those image links on your cybereyes.) If you're trying to hack his comlink in VR mode you'll look like you're sleeping. That is unless you concentrate on being in the real world, and then you'll have to give up six dice on your sip coffee (2, 1 initiative pass) extended test. I imagine that would look pretty silly, and concentraing on the real world means not concentrating on your hacking a bad idea...

Also as far as tells go, I imagine in AR you'll look like you're reading. See the image of the AR overlay. I'd guess that AR places the windows based on head position so you move your eyes to read a window. Someone in AR would look a lot like they are scanning a floating document. This would be taken care of by the simple expediant of sunglasses, or maybe even protective covers.

All told you are concentrating on a different task, so you would probably look like someone trying to drink coffie while reading a newspaper, they tend to be a little overly cautious with how they reach for their coffee, and how they bring it to their mouths to prevent burns.

Cyber eyes come with image link.

Okay, here's a good question: If a device is DNI shouldn't you be able to take info from it as well? Is it/shouldn't it be a two way street?

---semi off topic---
A sim module can immerse you in Full VR, shouldn't there be a half-VR option? Like projecting AR into your brain to overlay natural sensory input.
In Full VR your natural senses are completely overlayed with heavy and intense sensory information, but you can still see the world if you concentrate. Wouldn't it be possible to turn down the feed or amount of traffic being received from a VR feed to exclude everything but windows and other AROs? I'm pretty sure that it isn't possible according to RAW but it seems logical, right? Having a low simsense feed give you AROs and AR displays? Of course if you were hacked you'd be susceptable to biofeedback but it would be so much more convient than having all kinds of accesories. And way cheaper...
If that were possible why couldn't you feed RL device input into VR (i.e. have the video feed from the camera mounted on your glasses show up off to the side in a little window) and with a low-level simsense feed actually feed video input onto your normal vision (i.e. That camera has thermo and just feeds that video from the camera to your comm to your sim module to your brain!)
Are those uses of Sim sense really that unreasonable? I know implementing any of that would be purely houserules territory but is there an actual flaw in my logic here? Could simsense not work like that?

You still have to buy the Image Link with the Cybereyes. It costs 500 and doesn't take up capacity.

Two-way-communtication is excactly what DNI is about.

Simsense Information can be part of any VR or AR Information. In AR they are (usually) tuned down, in VR they are (usually) full force. You can turn down either to lower levels (or up to higher), but note that you need the simsense feed to 'feel' the Matrix if you want to interact with it in VR (that is, you lose all benefits of VR or Hot VR if you turn down simsense information).
You can open a window with (or directly patch through) any device's information in ether AR or VR. This includes information from your Cybereyes. If you want, you can listen to your Cyberears' data as well in VR ... though it might turn distracting if you do something else simultaniously (either roll if you understood what was said or take -2 on your main action due to distraction).

Still everything plausible enough to be core.

bottom of pg. 332

It seems to say in the book that a Sim Module is neccesary to turn data into thoughts (pg. 318).

But I thought that was the point of having DNI. According to the book I think it has to work like this:

Device --> Sim Module --> DNI --> Brain



But giving mental commands via DNI works like this (pg. 330):

Brain --> DNI --> Device

That seems to be what the book says. That sounds a little counter-intuitive. Does the first orange line only apply when dealing with Simsense data (a.k.a. VR)?

The SIM Module allows you to experience the data, To go full VR.

You can still use an implanted com-link without it, but only A.R.

Or does the com-link implant come with a SIM Module?

DNI sets up the communications channels.

A Sim Module is a special Device that translates a data feed into simsense signals, which are then transported to the brain via DNI.

You can communicate with any device you're linked to via DNI (directly, or indirectly via your commlink (which acts as a router)) using mental comands.

For a Sim Link to send simfeeds to your brain, it requires a DNI access.

If you don't want/need simsense information, you don't need a Sim Module. You can still transfer other data to and from your brain via DNI. You just don't FEEL (=experience; sensoric, emotive, immersive tracks) it, only see/hear/feel (sensory track) it via Image Link, Sound Link, Touch Link ......

Edit : Nope, an implanted commlink (or any non-implanted) does not come with a sim module. You have to either use an implanted Sim Module or connect one externally (via Datajack or Datajack and Commlink).

Because AR is faster.

This AR overlay via simsense would be on a secure comm (hidden or skinlinked)

@hyzmarca: How is AR faster than simsense?

Now you're just being twinky, Hyzmarca.

Isn't full VR supposed to completely re-map your sensorium and remove your motor control? So you can't really, say, walk down the street an do full VR at the same time, while you can walk down the street and do AR stuff just fine.

That's my understanding, yes. Going full-VR is like astral projection: you take leave of your normal senses, allowing the Sim module to supplant them with VR senses.

However, with a Sim module in place, AR systems can trigger sensory experiences. I believe there's a comment in the BBB about AR adverts outside a shop causing those with a Sim module to get virtual "smells" of the perfumes they offer, or something.

there is allso a comment about emotional tracks. like you feeling love for some product

So there is no need for actual AR gear to receive visual AR if things like olfactory AR can be experienced using only a sim module. Hmmmm, it looks like I was right.
That means this "toned down" simsense feed used to receive AR isn't actually VR and so you can hack at meat body speeds (which is pretty fast if you're a munckin.) I'd rather have that +2 hotsim modifier though.

Wait, if I have a implanted commlink I have to have a sim module to receive AR from my commlink, is that right? Just like using a datajack or set of trodes?
In order for my brain to understand the AR input my comm receives it must utilize a sim module to turn it into thoughts, correct?

AR Data paths:
THE MATRIX! <--> commlink <--> Sim Module <--> Trodes (DNI) <--> My Brain

THE MATRIX! <--> commlink <--> Sim Module <--> Datajack (DNI) <--> My Brain

THE MATRIX! <--> commlink <--> Sim Module <--> implanted comm (DNI) <--> My Brain

THE MATRIX! <--> commlink <--> AR Accessory <--> Sensory Organ <--> My Brain

I think where I was confused is that the implant version of the commlink doesn't neccesarily enable me to experience AR data directly from the matrix. I was thinking this:
THE MATRIX! <--> implanted comm (DNI) <--> My Brain

I would still need periphrals like glasses to interpret the data. However the sim module does allow me to experience AR data without periphrals (like in the third line above). In order for me to receive, interpret and interact with AR data without moving a muscle and without accessories I need BOTH a DNI and Sim Module. There, isn't that right?

Oh, and for anyone who cares I found that passage that states that simsense can be used in lieu of AR accessories. It's on Page 209. The same paragraph that Kesh and hobgoblin were talking about. It says that partial simsense feeds are used in projecting AR into the brain, just like I had supposed it worked before.

Thanks everyone for being patient and answering my looney questions. Think I've got this all straight now.

just want to say that a implant comlink comes with a sim module...

Its in the matrix section, where they explain VR. (dont have the book with me, so no page numbers, sorry)

In the equipment section when they talk about the sim module they say that you still need some method of getting the translated simsense data to the brain. Methods include trodes or a direct neural interface ( datajack, implanted commlink )

Why would the sim module equipment description say that a sim module can use an implanted commlink to communicate simsense to the brain if the sim module was already included in the implanted commlink?

That just don't make sense.

I really don't think the implanted commlink comes with an already included sim module.

Neither do I. I haven't found anything in the book to support that claim...

I know im the last person anybody wants to see on this thread but heres my input lol:

First of all an implanted commlink does NOT come with a sim module by default. It has its own price, its own essense cost, and its own capacity. If you stick the stuff in a cyberlimb then you dont pay essense. It doesnt have to be in your head just inside your body so it has DNI.

I guess if you dont have cyberlimb you could stick it anywhere that you have extra capacity like an eyeball or ear. Isnt there any cyber for the head that gives capacity?? There isnt in the sr4 book.


Commlink+sim mod ---> implanted comm is just a way to get the signal to your brain without using trodes or datajcks.

I'm pretty sure that cybereye and cyberear capacity can only be used by eye and ear enhancements respectively.

Can anyone back me up on that?

Well i wont argue with where you stick stuff with essense. But i dont see why it would make a difference with capacity. DNI signals from a cybereye to your brain are no different than DNI signals from a cyberarm to your brain.

Another thing with implanted comms and sim modules is that they each take up space. One doesnt fit in the other.

SR4 pg. 228

Why is there a implanted sim module then!!! that makes no sense!!!

My book doesnt say anything about cranial commlinks after the simrig.

Well in theory I guess a hacker type could be constantly upgrading his commlink and figures he doesn't want the inconvience of it being located in his skull every time he wants to upgrade the repsonse chip.

The sim module on the other hand isn't likely to change in the next few years or so why not put it in the skull for safe keeping?

( Best excuse I can come up with )

corrected third printing ?

I got a first printing.

Your book actually says "Simrigs (both worn and implanted) also contain sim modules" on page 228? and no mention made whatsoever about cranial commlinks?

If so this wasn't listed as a change in the Erratta.

If true then ...wow. ( and not the good "wow" but the bad "wow" )

yeah what you got in parenthesis is exactly how that sentence ends. In the simrig section for commlinks it says that simrigs have built in sim mods and under bodyware it just refers back to the commlink simrigs. Cranial comms are never mentioned.

An implanted commlink w/out a sim mod would let you hook all your shit together without the possability of being hacked and sent into VR or something??

P. 228

"A simsense module is required to access full VR. Th e sim
module is a commlink accessory that you access with a datajack
or trode net. Simrigs (both worn and implanted) and cranial
commlinks also contain sim modules."

Version 1.3

The errata lists no changes for the text to page 228.

ok, time to freak out. my SR4 dead tree copy do not have the "and cranial
commlinks" part

and i have a second printing...
and from what i recall, the second and third printing use the same text...

this is just nuts...

memo to self then, implant comlinks do not come with a sim module.

we already found this stealth nerfing issue in the german forums. but as the 1.3 pdf does have the sentence in it, it is the one that is right, as it is the newest version.

it may have allso shown up here earlier...

as for whats correct, i dont have a clue. isnt 1.3 the one thats supposed to be inside the second printing and onwards?