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Nerbert

This particular piece of armor has me stumped. Most of the other gear seems to be pretty well balanced between cost, obviousness and effectiveness, except for the jumpsuit.

Why does it have such good stats for a relatively low cost? What on earth kind of helmet are they talking about?

I guess I just can't imagine how something like this would look or function.
Phobos
Just think "Biker clothing".

The heavy, armored jumpsuits you might find useful when riding a racing bike. Now, the Urban Explorer is more or less that - not as rigid in movement due to improvements in material (you're not frozen in sitting-on-bike-position any more biggrin.gif), and with all the build in goodies you could feel necessary.

They're pretty cheap because they are not really designed for combat but for high-risk sports & travel, and thus mass produced. That they protect against bullets and fists, too, is just a nice byproduct ... that increases sales even more wink.gif
Nerbert
Ok...

Something like http://www.sinisalo.com/tmp/pbank/motocros...ss/56112185.jpg this you mean?

But it looks rediculous. And why is it bulletproof? High risk sports and travel don't generally require more balistic armor than a leather jacket.

Right now I'm leaning on pointing out that anyone who wears one looks like they're about to step into the arena of an urban brawl match. Sort of like how a football player would look, walking around a stuffer shack with a bag full of laundry detergent, in full gear.

I guess I could let them earn some spare change by letting sponsors put ads on their outfit, NASCAR style. :eyeroll:
Protagonist
QUOTE (Nerbert)
And why is it bulletproof? High risk sports and travel

You answered your own question biggrin.gif

High-risk sports involve bullets, and so can travel. If you decide you want to go jogging, there could be a severe risk of getting shot depending on when/where you go.
Nerbert
When I say high risk sports and travel, I mean things that normal humans/metahumans would actually do. You don't mass produce something for a tiny percentage of the population.

I cannot imagine that the number of people who plan to engage in seriously life threatening activities involving small, high velocity projectiles, who _also_ wouldn't just wear regular bullet proof armor is very high.

Urban Brawl, you'd wear real military grade armor, not something for inner city bike messengers. Which is what the descrition in the book says that they're made for.

Combat biking... Maybe, but again, how big of a population is going to be engaging in such a sport at the level where they would be fearing for their life?
Phobos
Yes, excactly something like that.
Yes, they are obvious as hell.


Why are they armored ? They are build so you have a chance to survive falling of your bike at high speed. That means they have to be sturdy as hell not to burn through with the friction ... so they are made out of heavy synthetic or leather with heavy Kevlar plates (enough for half an armored vest) on all vulnerable areas ... and they are pretty heavy and not very comfy when not on a bike.

The 2070 version is a little better suited to movement as the material is lighter and less stiff, and they are used in many of the more 'body-oriented' sports (Urban Brawl, Combat Bike, ...) and with lots of the less organized disciplines (Train Surfing, Highway Jousting, ...) - in fact they are a pretty common sight ...
Not to mention fassion - those things are hot for Slumming.

Aside the more obvious reasons to where them - like driving a bike, courier work or as light security armour.

Oh, and there's usually NO reason at all to let security anywhere wear anything worse - add a corporate logo and use as basic uniform.
Zolhex
remember this is shadowrun if your not out in an a to aaa security zone walking around may not be safe.

Even if you are in an a to aaa security zone you may not be totaly safe those areas just come with faster security response times lol.

So yes the population of shadowrun tends to wear armor like the jumpsuit as for it's appearance that can be modified easy enough in 2070.
hyzmarca
Remeber, this is the world where armored formalwear is commonplace. The average businessman goes to work wearing a bulletresistant three-piece suit. This is the world where things like the Insurance Wars can happen. You never know when some goon is going to shoot you because your bike is insured by the wrong company.
Nerbert
So, unless you need to look really nice, there's really no reason to wear anything else?

The armored vest takes almost a 50% hit to impact armor, and all you get for it is something like nuyen.gif 200 and concealability.
ShadowDragon8685
Welcome to Shadowrun, where the old lady walking down the street with a cane has smartgunlink eyeglasses and a Fichetti Security loaded with Flechette in her purse.
underaneonhalo
QUOTE (Nerbert)
So, unless you need to look really nice, there's really no reason to wear anything else?

Why not? Some people pay just to look stupid.
Samaels Ghost
Those Raid vests are ridiculous! rotfl.gif rotfl.gif dead.gif

As for the Urban Explorer jumpsuit I imagine that if it was actually used for Urban Exploring (where you tresspass into cool looking, condemned buildings, old sewers and under-city caverns) then there would be versions that are black or camoflaged.

Yeah, the Urban explorer jumpsuit is better than the armor vest. Probably because it covers your entire body. There isn't a really good reason you wouldn't wear it if you had the choice between that and the armored vest.
That helmet probably looks more like a cyclist helmet than a motorcyclist helmet.

hyzmarca
Raid vests make an important fashion statement. That statement is "I want to be shot in the face."
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Raid vests make an important fashion statement. That statement is "I want to be shot in the face."

Loud and Clear!!! rotfl.gif
Demon_Bob
When I read the description, I pictured something closer to a bicycle messenger's outfit. Brightly colored to help motorists see you, and with lots of padding incase they don't.
GB1
QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
When I read the description, I pictured something closer to a bicycle messenger's outfit.  Brightly colored to help motorists see you, and with lots of padding incase they don't.

Nicely said.

As to "Why bullet proof?"
"Kevlar
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kevlar is the DuPont Company's brand name for material made out of synthetic fiber of poly-paraphenylene terephthalamide which is constructed of para-aramid fibers that the company claims is five times stronger than the same weight of steel, while being lightweight, flexible and comfortable. It is also very heat resistant and decomposes above 400 C without melting. It was invented by Stephanie Kwolek of DuPont from research into high performance polymers, and patented by her in 1966 and first marketed in 1971. Kevlar is a registered trademark of E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Company. Originally intended to replace the steel belts in tires, it is probably the most well known name in
soft armor such as bulletproof vests
. It is also used in extreme sports equipment, high-tension drumhead applications, animal handling protection, composite aircraft construction, fire suits, yacht sails, as an asbestos replacement, sometimes in loudspeaker cones, and recently, even in R/C model helicopter blades ."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar
[/U]
WhiskeyMac
I also imagined it as the armored jumpsuit that Hiro Protagonist wears in Snowcrash. The one for the Deliverator as well as the one he wears when he's riding the smart bike near the end. His "bad motherfucker" outfit smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
Just because very similar material is used in both extreme sports equipment and ballistic body armor does not mean that the sports wear will stop bullets. The material is treated different, it's weaved different, and the sportswear has a hell of a lot less of it. You'd have to wear quite a few (I'm guessing 5 or more) kevlar-lined biker jackets on top of each other to stand a chance of getting any sort of NIJ ballistic armor rating, and a 2-digit figure to compare to serious flexible body armor.

Still, when designing protective equipment against blunt threats for extreme sports, some of the properties will overlap with ballistic armor. When you get to the point where you can be safely thrown at a concrete wall at 120mph, the suit will probably provide some protection against handguns.
ornot
IIRC the urban explorer jump suit is made with special compounds that harden on impact among other things. Kevlar does not do this and I would suggest that the referral to kevlar is simply to point out that pretty high tech stuff is used in both military armour and extreme sports wear. After all, it is also listed as being used in drum head skins, and I don't think anyone is suggesting using them to protect yourself from bullets!

I'd envisioned the jump suit as being used for Parkour. Obviously some developer decided that in the world of 2070 it was popular enough that protective gear was commonplace. I would even imagine that there are different grades of Urban Explorer Jumpsuit, say a beginner grade that offers a lower degree of protection that will not impede someone with a lower body.

Perhaps the ratings are a little high, but it does come with a helmet (which I envisioned as a full face motorcycle type helmet), and helmets give you +2 to both impact and ballistic with any other armour type, so it would not be unreasonable to consider that without the helmet it only counts as 4/4, about the same as an Actioneer Business Suit.

As for looking out of place, I feel that if you were to wear this kind of thing in the barrens you'd be considered some kind of tourist at best, if you wore it in a corporate 'plex you'd attract some very odd stares, and if you wore it to a trendy club you'd just get laughed at. Consider the modern day analogy of walking around carrying a skateboard while wearing elbow pads, knee pads and a helmet. Doesn't really fit in except among other skaters, and the hardcore skaters would probably look down their noses at you for wussing out adn wearing all the protective gear.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (ornot)
Kevlar does not do this and I would suggest that the referral to kevlar is simply to point out that pretty high tech stuff is used in both military armour and extreme sports wear.

The same thing about different applications and different properties still holds true, of course, whether talking about shear thickening fluids or kevlar.
ornot
The degree of overlap may vary depending on the compound(s) being inccorporated into the armour though. Still, it'd be easy enough to houserule that the jumpsuit has a higher impact rating than ballistic, if it offends as written.
Austere Emancipator
It does not offend me, I don't play SR4. smile.gif I'm just saying that it being high tech protective wear doesn't necessarily make it any good vs. ballistic threats. If it's as good at protecting the wearer from bullets as it is from crashing with a bike, then that's most likely a conscious choice by the designer of the suit, and is made at some cost (increased bulk/weight or price).
Nerbert
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Welcome to Shadowrun, where the old lady walking down the street with a cane has smartgunlink eyeglasses and a Fichetti Security loaded with Flechette in her purse.

I'm fine with the concept of Joe Average walking down the street to have a fairly scary level of personal protection. What I'm not comfortable with is every joe average walking down the street wearing matching onesies and all looking like the mayor of candy land.

Thanks for everyones input, I have a much better idea of how to picture this sort of thing and how I want it to fit into my game.
Jaid
QUOTE (ornot)
Perhaps the ratings are a little high, but it does come with a helmet (which I envisioned as a full face motorcycle type helmet), and helmets give you +2 to both impact and ballistic with any other armour type, so it would not be unreasonable to consider that without the helmet it only counts as 4/4, about the same as an Actioneer Business Suit.

actually, the helmet is an optional add-on that grants an extra +2 impact armor only, iirc.
ornot
oh? I've not got my BBB with me at the moment, so I was just going off what I remembered.
Lagomorph
I always assumed it looked like a motorcycle suit, like....

This! http://www.rapidracer.com/shsustlesu.html

Garish colors and everything.

It's been stated that the uses for kevlar are different between sports and ballistic equipment. But what if they're using full ballistic kevlar rather than moderndays wimpy sports kevlar. It should provide the wearer the same effects as it would the sports kevlar, and also add in ballistic protection.

It is awefully cheap eitherway.
Shrike30
I would have thought that Y.T.'s skater outfit from Snow Crash (as opposed to Hiro's driverwear) would have been more close to what we're talking about here.

Honestly... it covers your entire body and has some ballistic properties. It protects you about as much as a lined coat with some extra padding.

Take the armored vest, add on arm guards, and you've got an armored jacket. Add leg guards, and you've got full body armor (and you're rolling around at 10/cool.gif. Some of armor's value comes from how thick and heavy it is, and some of it comes from how much of your body it protects. Obviously, the armored vest is a much heavier-duty piece of armor... it provides the same ballistic rating as a full UEx suit despite only protecting your torso.

As for pricing... anybody here ever actually priced body armor? It's not all that expensive. Stuff like motorcycle armor can easily run more than body armor.
bigdrewp
One thing we are all forgetting, this is Shadowrun. Think of all the cool things that a messenger would be delivering, cookies from Grandma, that commlink you ordered off the matrix, incriminating photos, whatever. Then think about all the people who would want to steal these things. Do you think that maybe that is why someone would make a delivery jump suit that offered ballistic protection as well? On top of that, kids being what they are, they are more than likely going to want to wear something like that, something they could get in their "colors" and not get killed as easily in. Those are just my thoughts on it.
Geekkake
QUOTE (bigdrewp)
One thing we are all forgetting, this is Shadowrun. Think of all the cool things that a messenger would be delivering, cookies from Grandma, that commlink you ordered off the matrix, incriminating photos, whatever. Then think about all the people who would want to steal these things. Do you think that maybe that is why someone would make a delivery jump suit that offered ballistic protection as well? On top of that, kids being what they are, they are more than likely going to want to wear something like that, something they could get in their "colors" and not get killed as easily in. Those are just my thoughts on it.

Once armor is introduced into many styles of clothing (one of the previous SR editions books and fiction mentioned something along the lines that almost no one went out without at least some kind of ballistic armor, such as armored clothing), it stands to reason that the kids of the Sixth World would want to adopt it. Look at the kids of today, enthralled by the hip-hop subculture. The zoot suits of previous generations. The kids love criminal subculture.

What's more "suburban white kid street tough" than pre-damaged armored clothing? And the commercial success of that particular product line would almost guarantee subsequent clothing lines integrating at least basic ballistic armor into their product. Since I see primarily young people (the 16-25 crowd) wearing Urban Explorer suits for fashion, sports, courier work, and *gasp!* urban exploration, the armor stands to reason. Putting more and more functional armor would just appeal to that demographic even more.
Shrike30
Or to their parents, who don't necessarily understand the current fashion trends but are glad that their kids are at least wearing something that might keep them in one piece, knowing the people they hang out with...
Geekkake
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Or to their parents, who don't necessarily understand the current fashion trends but are glad that their kids are at least wearing something that might keep them in one piece, knowing the people they hang out with...

Sure. I'll bet it'll reach a point by 2070 that the normal "shocker" news story will be inadequate armor in regular clothing, rather than the idea of armor in clothing to begin with.

"Are your children being endangered by school district budget cutbacks on personal uniform security? NewsNet investigates."
Shrike30
rotfl.gif Yeah, I can see it now... "Ares announced today that it's subsidiary, Flashwear Fashion, will be dispersed due to the number of recalls they've had in recent months. Reportedly, concerns about excessive backface deformation on Flashwear's latest line of swimsuits were being suppressed by the company's management in an effort to maintain sales."
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