I was looking at how much explosives would be required to blow a 1m hole in a Barrier 16. Using the DV formula given as: DV = Rating * SQRT(Kg-of-explosive) and since explosives get DV*2 vs. barriers, here's my Formula given in terms of Kilograms:

Need 16, so 2*DV = 16, so I need DV=8.

8 = Rating * SQRT(Kg) --> (8/Rating)^2 = Kg

With commercial (Rating 3) I'll need: (8/3)^2 = 64/9 = 7.11 kg.

This got me thinking, this means 1kg of commercial explosive only goes 3P damage??

Verification on the calc and any comments about holding 1kg of explosives would be welcome.

Thanks,

~GTT

Yes, that's an ooooooollllllllllllddddddddee problem of SR - explosives are far heavier than they should be for their effect.

Simply read 'Ounce' instead of 'Kilogram' everywhere explosives are concerned, and it will make more sense.

Actually you can get foam explosives as well as commercial explosives. You can get the Foam explosives at a rating 6 for only 600 per kilogram at character creation. Very nice

nah, these days its commersion, foam and plastiq

btw, normaly the use of commersial explosives is not about blowing big holes in stuff.
instead you want to weaken the structure of what your blowing up (rock, house, whatever) so that it cant hold its own weight.

then its just a matter of watching it collapse.

the SR damage to barrier rules are made for one thing and one thing only, making ad-hoc entry points. sometimes i wish they would include a general demolitions rule to, alltho it seems that a ok rule of thumb is that when you have removed half the barriers rating, its unable to carry any extra weight...

well true. but when you drill holes in a support column and all that you need much less explosives then when you park a truck next to it...

the former would in my view gain both the demolitions+logic bonus (if any), and the half armor from them being attached directly to the barrier.

the latter would just be explosives vs battier, no test what so ever...

so max human logic and max skill 12 dice, thats 3 hits if using hte trade-in way (or about 4 on avarage if rolling?). that makes the commersial stuff have a DV of 6.

then there is the half armor effect, makes anything below structural take atleast some damage.

then there is the rating * 2 from it being explosives. question is, should one apply the test result before or after that one? if before its 9, if after its 12.

oh and btw, the armor is rolled. if going by trade-in the structural material (A12,R11) got all but one of its rating points knocked of it.

the problem with the rules as written there is all or nothing effect. unless the damage goes above the rating, there is no effect what so ever. no reduction in rating from the damage, nada

allso, there is no rules for structural collapse. ok, so something that have gotten a 1*1 meter hole blown is more or less collapsed. but what if said barrier was load bearing? would there not be a point where the material is so damaged that even if there isnt a hole, it will be unable to support the load its supposed to?

still, i just blew a hole in anything up to (and including) reinforced material. and that with 1 kg of commersial explosives.

then the question becomes: how big, in volume, is 1 kg of commersial explosives? if its about the same volume as 1 kg of sugar, i dont have a problem with it blowing a hole in said barriers at all

btw, R16 barrier? thats a metal beam (im guessing a H-beam or similar).
hmm, with the above data im getting about 4 kg of commersial to double its effect...

and to basicly cut a metal beam, that does not sound that far off...

cut as in using "plastique" and wrapping it around the beam, maybe with a v shape or something similar to concentrate the force of it?

sounds about similar to a program about explosives i watched on discovery where they tested the amount needed to cut a under-sea anchor on a drilling platfrom. dont know/recall the amount of explosives they used tho.

hmm, 0.6 liters sounds about a bit less then the bag of sugar i had in mind. still, it indicates that explosives can be quite dense.

hmm, i think we have to rething what the commersial explosives stuff realy is. im starting to think its supposed to be similar to those old sticks of TNT. and by its R legality, any man could potentialy drop by the local hardware store and pick up some (i recall my dad talking about my grandad doing something similar here in norway, he just had to have a chat with the local police first. but the laws are more restrictive these days).

the foam and plastique stuff is considerd forbidden. ie, not for the joe wageslave's. now that does not say that it cant be used by licenced demolition companys and similar. question would then be, how hard would it be for a runner to create a legal demolitions company?

bah, who knows what the designers where thinking when they set the ratings for those types of explosives.

im still thinking that the current SR4 rules for damaging barriers are not supposed to cover general demolitions. and if one combo that with the wonky explosives ratings (atleast for commersial stuff thats hardlocked to 3) you get artifacts when trying to calculate effects.

now if both foam and plastic allso had set ratings, one could argue that they are less dense pr rating point. this way you need less weight for the same bang but with them having variable ratings and the commersial stuff having a fixed rating, anything goes...

I think it's listed that shaped charges also get 2X DV from rating. So you could get away with a DV of 4, which would be (4/3)^2=1.78 kg. which is quite a bit more reasonable.

I don't have my book, so I can't be certain about it, but thats what I recall.

You can gain a lot by of effect by using Demolitions skill for a properly laid charge. In adition armour is halved for contact.
The rules aren't realy bad, only the "KILOGRAMMS" make no sense. Replace with "OUNCES" (=~30g) in every instance, and they are good.

It makes no sense that you could have 4kg of comercial explosives detonate in your backpack and suffer only a few scratches (6P, halved impact armour, full BOD -> 4P for Joe Average wearing an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit)
With ounces, that would be 4kg = ~140 Ounces -> ~36P = a smear of blood and flesh even with still half Impact armour and full BOD.

Game Balance is not changed a bit by doing so, only the amount of explosive material fits closer to realism ... of course you could call it '1lb' or '100g' or whatever per unit, just not Kg, just as you like.

rember that most damage from explosives are done by whatever they manage to propell towards you, shrapnel and similar.

most of said 4 kg of explosives would find it easyer to escape by ripping the backpack apart and venting into the air...

still, 4P may be on the weak end of the effect.

The belts/vests suicide bombers use tend to have anywhere from 5 to 30kg of explosives on them. I've yet to hear a suicide bomber surviving the blast, but often there are some body parts that aren't mangled beyond recognition -- though these parts will usually be spread evenly over the blast area.

4kg of TNT-equivalent in a backpack would definitely kill a human. It would kill him thoroughly dead, but with luck you might be left with a (severed) head useful for identification.

something tells me that SR commersial have more in common with black powder then it does with current day explosives...

hmm, just a tought, but could a vest do more damage to the person wearing it based on there being several blasts going off on diffrent sides of the body. thereby compressing the body rather then just push it in one direction?

heh, i have now edited it...

Perhaps the Internatial Standards Association chose a different value for the gram at some point on the SR timeline so that the SR kilogram is substantially less than the real world kilogram. Actually, a lot of things make a great deal more sense if you start from that assumption.

or maybe the original SR writers just did a straight pound = kilogram convertion or something and its been carried forward to this day?

heh, should not stop someone from looking it up, or talking with someone in the know...

nah, its classical RPG design

only fan-made and gurps books are researched to any real degree

Not to get too far off topic, although I am contributing to it nonetheless...

With finite constraints (obviously, because a book can only hold so much information) trying to outline a game with infinite possibilities (which table top RPGs provide), the developers can only do so much.

To really activate the infinite possibilities in a table top RPG, you have to pull the GM in and put a ton of responsibilities on his/her shoulders. I don't care what the game system is, it is impossible to cover everything a group of players may want to do...and that is where the GM steps in.

IMO, as long as the developers of a system give me enough guidance in their documentation, it shouldn't be that big a deal to assume the GM can fill in the gaps...

I don't know, I just felt like this needed to be said.

I am still confused how you can hold 1 kg of Rating 3 commerical explosive and barely suffer wounds. I'm sure there's got to be something about this in that big 'ol book.

Its an abstract damage system. When your hand and most of your forearm has been blown to smitherines that's 1 box of damage.

and you can walk around like that for as long as you like without dying from bloddloss...