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m00p
I have been combing over the SR4 book for about the last week, and there are a few flaws and questions that have been bothering me. If anyone could help me out, I would appriciate it.

1. Should drones be able to use a grenade launcher? In both SR3 and SR4, the Ares Antoich appears in heavy weapons, after LMG. Does that mean it should not be able to be mounted on a drone?

2. I am baffled as to why the Matrix Topography section literally has no information on the Topography of the Matrix. Is there any rational reason as to why the book does not even seem to offer suggestions or examples to those of use who do not actaully have background in networking?

3. Autosofts, do they need to be purchased one per drone, one pre type of drone, one per autosoft? I did not want to do the math on the Rigger's Character page, so I am hoping that someone has a solid answer.

4. The book mentions carrying capacity, yet has no mention of the actual weights of any of the gear: Having to resort back to older books for that kind of information is a pain.

5. When it comes to Information on Resonance Realms and Metaplanes, saying that information is lacking is a bit of an understatement. I was given enough information on the Metaplanes to be able to work with it, but having a difficult concept picturing the Matrix itself, and then being given literally no information on Resonance Realms is maddening. Does anyone have any suggestions on roleplaying the realms, what they are, or any really significant game purpose they could have other than harboring different spirits and allowing for easy communication submerged technomancers?

6. Again with Technomancers, has anyone else noticed that the Echoes are relatively weak when compared to that of the initiate powers of the Magicians?

7. I noticed that there is little, if any mention of spell creation, it is disappointed that it is not covered in this book.

8. The comment on page 304, about how everything can be a computer; really bothers me. I would like to know how you could play your favorite song on the computer in your coat, and be able to enjoy (providing that somehow, your coat has decent speakers) it without the muffled sound of fabric covering them. Am I the only one that feels that everything should not have a computer in it?

9. Sweet Jesus, is this book organized poorly. I really like the game... but this book needs to be revised.

Edit: 10. I can see why the Hardpoit/Firmpoint rules were changed, but why was no compensation made to allow larger-than-LMG- size weapons to be affixed to drones or vehicles? It seems me that an easy conversion would be LMG = 1 Body of space, >LMG = 2 Body, but a more balanced conversion may lie around LMG (or smaller) = 2 Body of space, >LMG = 4 Body.

Thanks for taking a look, and I look forward to doing more than just asking annoying questions in the future.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE
9. Sweet Jesus, is this book organized poorly. I really like the game... but this book needs to be revised.

I disagree. For my tastes. it's way more organized than prior versions but everyone's a critic I suppose.

Abbandon
1. sr4 pg341 says a vehicle can have a weapon mount for every 3 points of body. If you cross reference that with drones i'd say only medium sized drones and up can have weapons??

2. Examples wont do you any good. A system could be made of a single node or 50 billion nodes. Its totally up to the game master to design them. The harder more realistic you want it the more nodes you add.

3. Hmm i would say per type of drone. If you have two of the same type of drone then i guess you should be allowed to copy manuever, clearsight, electronic warfare and uhh the weapon skill one. However those programs would be different if one drone has different stats than the other or if its a comlpetely different drone.

4. *see below

5. I imagine matrix realms are ultra realistic and can take on any theme possable just like the metaplanes. One suggestion for roleplaying them is to make the technomancer lose his persona and show up looking just like his meatbody. make him think he is actually in the matrix.

6. Cant be compared they do different things. As long as they give advantages over non initiates who can say if they are balanced or not.

7.*see below

8. technology works like magic in shadowrun so stop trying to make it conform to real world standards. Yes a coat could have electronic components in it along with speakers that can ignore the material covering them or built in a way as to ignore them. Look at nanopaste trodes. Its paint that can interact with your brain dude.

9. its ok. Some tables in the book are not present at the end where everything is condensed which sucks.

10. More like LMG =3 body >LMG=4. Or they should change LMG to heavy weapons.

*= Its totally obvious how sr4 rulebook is just a very basic fundamental book and that you will have to buy the expansion rulebooks to make any sense of anything. I feel it is really underhanded. I think they specifically designed it to be confusing or leave things open to interpretation. otherwise they would have given examples of everything so even if we dont have all the extra bonus rules we could have atleast seen how the developers wanted things to play like.

Crappy unclear rules = more money.
ShadowDragon
QUOTE
1. Should drones be able to use a grenade launcher? In both SR3 and SR4, the Ares Antoich appears in heavy weapons, after LMG. Does that mean it should not be able to be mounted on a drone? 


The RAW says any weapon that is a LMG or smaller. Just going by the picture of the ArmTech MGL-12 and the Stoner-Ares M202, it looks like grenade launchers are small enough. Ultimately the rules are vague enough that it's just up to the GM.

QUOTE
2. I am baffled as to why the Matrix Topography section literally has no information on the Topography of the Matrix. Is there any rational reason as to why the book does not even seem to offer suggestions or examples to those of use who do not actaully have background in networking?


Rational reasons for it not to be included in the book? What does that mean? sarcastic.gif

QUOTE
3. Autosofts, do they need to be purchased one per drone, one pre type of drone, one per autosoft? I did not want to do the math on the Rigger's Character page, so I am hoping that someone has a solid answer. 


I don't think the RAW covers this specifically. How I rule it is that autosofts work just like skills. So any drone can use the same clearsight autosoft, but anthrodrones need a different manuever autosoft than rotodrones. Autosofts are also just another piece of software, so they come piracy protected - but of course if you have the skills and time to break that then you may make unlimited copies (illegally).

QUOTE
4. The book mentions carrying capacity, yet has no mention of the actual weights of any of the gear: Having to resort back to older books for that kind of information is a pain. 


The game is designed so that you don't micromanage weights. I suggest you eyeball it when it's an issue. Usually I don't even care about how much my players bring along unless it gets rediculous.

QUOTE
5. When it comes to Information on Resonance Realms and Metaplanes, saying that information is lacking is a bit of an understatement. I was given enough information on the Metaplanes to be able to work with it, but having a difficult concept picturing the Matrix itself, and then being given literally no information on Resonance Realms is maddening. Does anyone have any suggestions on roleplaying the realms, what they are, or any really significant game purpose they could have other than harboring different spirits and allowing for easy communication submerged technomancers? 

6. Again with Technomancers, has anyone else noticed that the Echoes are relatively weak when compared to that of the initiate powers of the Magicians?   


Technomancers are not available to players in my game. They add nothing but extra complication to the game anyway. Hackers already cover the role of frustrating and confusing me. As such, I haven't even read the section on technomancers yet.

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7. I noticed that there is little, if any mention of spell creation, it is disappointed that it is not covered in this book. 


They have to leave something for Street Magic, don't they?

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8. The comment on page 304, about how everything can be a computer; really bothers me. I would like to know how you could play your favorite song on the computer in your coat, and be able to enjoy (providing that somehow, your coat has decent speakers) it without the muffled sound of fabric covering them. Am I the only one that feels that everything should not have a computer in it? 


Everything is connected to your PAN. The music would play through your ear buds or cyber ears.

I think that in 2070 everything will have a computer in it. The game wouldn't be believable to me if everything didn't.

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9. Sweet Jesus, is this book organized poorly. I really like the game... but this book needs to be revised.


You'd have a hard time finding someone who doesn't agree with this, unfortunately ;(

It gets better as you learn the game though.

QUOTE
Edit: 10. I can see why the Hardpoit/Firmpoint rules were changed, but why was no compensation made to allow larger-than-LMG- size weapons to be affixed to drones or vehicles? It seems me that an easy conversion would be LMG = 1 Body of space, >LMG = 2 Body, but a more balanced conversion may lie around LMG (or smaller) = 2 Body of space, >LMG = 4 Body.


No doubt this will be covered in Arsonal.
Thorn Black
[QUOTE] I think they specifically designed it to be confusing or leave things open to interpretation. otherwise they would have given examples of everything so even if we dont have all the extra bonus rules we could have atleast seen how the developers wanted things to play like.


I disagree. I didn't get on with SR3 because it was very rules intensive and it got in the way of our playing. I like the fact that with SR4 my group of players and I can just get on and play, rather than have a rules munchkin at the back quoting out of the book.
Abbandon
Yeah having a whole book of house rules is craploads better than having the actual rules. Especially when you play in more than one group or online.
Edward
[quote] 1. Should drones be able to use a grenade launcher? In both SR3 and SR4, the Ares Antoich appears in heavy weapons, after LMG. Does that mean it should not be able to be mounted on a drone?[/quote]

I would allow it, at least for mini grenades. Remember the Aries Alfa has an integral mini grenade launcher and you can mount that on a weapon mount. (personally I donít see many reasons to use any other weapon)

[quote] 2. I am baffled as to why the Matrix Topography section literally has no information on the Topography of the Matrix. Is there any rational reason as to why the book does not even seem to offer suggestions or examples to those of use who do not actaully have background in networking?[/quote]

Because to be useful you would need a good 5 pages minimum, they chose not to include that in the main book so youíll have to wait until unwired comes out. Unfortunately the only way to build a moderately secure network is to make hackers hack threw a network of nodes bringing back all the problems the new edition was trying to remove.

[quote] 3. Autosofts, do they need to be purchased one per drone, one pre type of drone, one per autosoft? I did not want to do the math on the Rigger's Character page, so I am hoping that someone has a solid answer.[/quote]

once each only with the exception of maneuver which is for a specific category of vehicles (VTA, crawler, rotor) and targeting which is for a specific type of weapon (automatics, heavy)

some people restrict these further but buy the RAW portable, even the pilot program is completely portable although you would need to upgrade system on every drone.

4 true

5 see unwired and street magic

6 see unwired

7 see streetmagic, when was spell design ever in the main book

[quote] 8. The comment on page 304, about how everything can be a computer; really bothers me. I would like to know how you could play your favorite song on the computer in your coat, and be able to enjoy (providing that somehow, your coat has decent speakers) it without the muffled sound of fabric covering them. Am I the only one that feels that everything should not have a computer in it?[quote]

well the speakers would probably be in the collar so the sound wont be so bad but the biggest advantage to a computer in your jacket is to control the photovoltaic color change properties allowing you to change the displayed images to any of the several included or thousands you can download from our matrix site, its not so much that everything contains a computer as everything can contain a computer and if you want one that dose you can get it.

[quote] 9. Sweet Jesus, is this book organized poorly. I really like the game... but this book needs to be revised.[/quote] just like the previous editions.

[quote] 10. I can see why the Hardpoit/Firmpoint rules were changed, but why was no compensation made to allow larger-than-LMG- size weapons to be affixed to drones or vehicles? It seems me that an easy conversion would be LMG = 1 Body of space, >LMG = 2 Body, but a more balanced conversion may lie around LMG (or smaller) = 2 Body of space, >LMG = 4 Body.[/quote]

perhaps you can tell me why they where changed. I think a body 1 or 2 drone should be able to have a pistol and weapons should not have to be turreted. Presumably at a minimum the rigger book will include bigger weapons on vehicles rules. As it stands you cant even have a HMG on a pintal mount in the back of a jeep.

James McMurray
QUOTE
1. Should drones be able to use a grenade launcher? In both SR3 and SR4, the Ares Antoich appears in heavy weapons, after LMG. Does that mean it should not be able to be mounted on a drone?


As Edward pointed out the Ares Alpha has an integral grenade launcher. Overall it's the best weapon to put in a mount because you can get more recoil comp then an LMG and you have the GL for backup.

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2. I am baffled as to why the Matrix Topography section literally has no information on the Topography of the Matrix. Is there any rational reason as to why the book does not even seem to offer suggestions or examples to those of use who do not actaully have background in networking?


Like many parts of the book there just isn't room for lots of detailed examples. They had to trim the fat left and right to squeeze it into the page count. Expect a lot more with Unwired. I know it's not the best answer, but it's the only one we've got.

QUOTE
3. Autosofts, do they need to be purchased one per drone, one pre type of drone, one per autosoft? I did not want to do the math on the Rigger's Character page, so I am hoping that someone has a solid answer.


We play it that you need one per drone type (wheeled, walker, flier, etc.).

QUOTE
4. The book mentions carrying capacity, yet has no mention of the actual weights of any of the gear: Having to resort back to older books for that kind of information is a pain.


Gotaa agree on this one. I'd love a free downloadable weight chart.

QUOTE
5. When it comes to Information on Resonance Realms and Metaplanes, saying that information is lacking is a bit of an understatement. I was given enough information on the Metaplanes to be able to work with it, but having a difficult concept picturing the Matrix itself, and then being given literally no information on Resonance Realms is maddening. Does anyone have any suggestions on roleplaying the realms, what they are, or any really significant game purpose they could have other than harboring different spirits and allowing for easy communication submerged technomancers?


See #2. Space limitations are at the root of this one as well.

QUOTE
6. Again with Technomancers, has anyone else noticed that the Echoes are relatively weak when compared to that of the initiate powers of the Magicians?


Expect a huge boost for TMs in Unwired.

QUOTE
7. I noticed that there is little, if any mention of spell creation, it is disappointed that it is not covered in this book.


Another space issue. Also, I'd much prefer well tested spell creation rules to something tossed into the main book because they found some space for it.

QUOTE
8. The comment on page 304, about how everything can be a computer; really bothers me. I would like to know how you could play your favorite song on the computer in your coat, and be able to enjoy (providing that somehow, your coat has decent speakers) it without the muffled sound of fabric covering them. Am I the only one that feels that everything should not have a computer in it?


Just because everything has a computer doesn't mean it's useful for everything a computer can do. You won't have amonitor for watching movies in your underwear. As someone else mentioned it ties into your PAN, so would play on your ear buds and movies would play on your sunglasses.

QUOTE
9. Sweet Jesus, is this book organized poorly. I really like the game... but this book needs to be revised.


I haven't had a problem with the organization.

QUOTE
Edit: 10. I can see why the Hardpoit/Firmpoint rules were changed, but why was no compensation made to allow larger-than-LMG- size weapons to be affixed to drones or vehicles? It seems me that an easy conversion would be LMG = 1 Body of space, >LMG = 2 Body, but a more balanced conversion may lie around LMG (or smaller) = 2 Body of space, >LMG = 4 Body.


Yet again something that had to be trimmed to fit the page count.
Shrike30
I allow grenade launchers and the one-shot missile launcher to be fitted into weapon mounts. I do not allow extra ammunition for these (as 250 extra missiles would be slightly large).
Lagomorph
The SR3 main book or Rigger 3 had rules that firm point, could hold LMG or smaller items, and a Hard point could hold any weapon. A hard point took up the space of 2 firm points, so you could say that a SR4 body 6 drone could have a hard point and hold the big stuff.
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