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Demerzel
So I was just crunching some numbers last night.

Okay, Imagine a Grade 6 initiate with a rating 6 power focus. Effective Magic rating 18, summons a rating 8 spirit with the movement power. Then casts levitate on himself and instructs the spirit to use it's power of movement on him.

Levitate grants a movement rate of Magic Rating x Net Hits (But it's not opposed when cast on self so no opposing hits to subtract.)

The magician with spellcasting 6 and an effective magic of 18 has 24 dice in his spellcasting pool yielding a 57.6% chance of getting 8 or more hits on this test.

18 x 8 = 144 meters per combat turn.

Combat turn is 3 seconds so 144/3 = 48 m/s

1 m/s = 2.2369362920544mph, so:

48 m/s * (2.2369362920544 mph / 1m/s) =~ 107.4 mph

Then the force 8 spirit using it's movement power multiplies the magicians movement rate by 8, giving:

107.4 mph * 8 = 859.2 mph
Exceeding the speed of sound by roughly 100mph.

If he casts it at force 9 he sustains 6s stun, a little rough perhaps but not bad for a supersonic naked man holding a power focus.

This line of thought came from wondering how fast I could make a fairly standard mage fly without doing anything extraordinary, got something like 18-25mph though that wasn't bad compared to say walking, then thought, "Wow, what would it take to be a supersonic mage?"

So how do I use this against the players in my game... vegm.gif
X-Kalibur
The better question... what spell protects their body from G's pulled at that speed?
ShadowDragon
QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
The better question... what spell protects their body from G's pulled at that speed?

Or how much karma it takes to do all that?

With that much karma, anything you do is going to be rediculous.
hyzmarca
Check the latest Errata. Levitation speed is determined by Force X Net Hits, not Magic x Net hits.

The bad new is that this doubles your hypothetical chatacter's potential speed to a whopping 1718.4 mph. The good news is that even an IE would have trouble resisting 19P drain.

A Dwarf or a Human optimized for drain resistance could get 10 (Logic) + 8 (Willpower or edge) + 7 (Edge or willpower) + 6 (Spellcating Focus) = 31 dice. Even for a Body 12 Dwarf that would usually hurt.


Resisting 9S drain is a little easier but it still isn't recomended.

You could get 3 extra drain resistance dice with an adrenal pump but the essence cost is rather large compared to the cerebral booster.
McGravin
Convert the Horse Totem from Magic in the Shadows to a new Mentor Spirit, and you don't even have to summon a spirit.

Back in SR2, a friend had an Elf Horse Shaman with cyberskates and a maxed out Quickness and four levels of Muscle Toner.

That's a 7 Quickness plus 4 for Muscle Toner, times 6 for cyberskates, times his essence of 5 thanks to the Movement ability granted by the Horse Totem (1 point of essense sacrificed for cyberskates). You get 330 meters per combat phase, or 66 meters per second (SR2 combat phases were 5 seconds, right?).

That's a little under 148 mph or 238 kph, on par with the Eurocar Westwind Turbo. Without casting any spells or summoning any spirits, there's no drain to resist.
Grinder
QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
Or how much karma it takes to do all that?

According to the thread title, an IE ususally has enough karma to do everything he wants. That's the reason why IEs are such an annoying pack of suckers.
Thanee
The Movement power always has been a little bit on the silly side, with the force multiplier. wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
Edward
First Demerzel a power focus no longer ads to magic for calculating effects, only to magic related dice pools, you need to get a little more speed from somewhere

Remember you donít need to resist all the drain, just enough.

We have in initiate grade 6 magic 12 hermetic mage with a power focus 6. Wanting to cast a levitate spell at force 24 (max) and stay alive. Drain 13p

Using hyzmarcaís max 31 drain dice (moor easily achieved than you would think when you consider that stats can be broat to max with spells, also consider that there is no theoretical cap on spell focus force) we will assume that drain was reduced buy 10 points (you spend edge so statistically you will get more from 6s) that is only 4 boxes of drain. Even if you could cast your force 36 monstrosity with 19 drain you only take 9 boxes, min body to remain upright only 3, less if the spell was fetish limited. then you cast a heal spell or 2 and your right as rain for your mad dash across the border.


Dender
hmm... numbers... numbers...

18 dice from magic and focus, 6 from spellcasting, 6 from edge

nice even 30 dice, for an average of 10 successes
plus an edge reroll for the failures and the 6's from the last one (about half)
25 dice for an average of an extra 8 successes

well... with 18 successes on average for casting.... i'd say casting a force 12... anything... wouldnt be unheard of.

then to resist, spellcasing focus + will + centering + attr (+ 8 from that spirit if you want)

32 dice to resist
11 successes on average

... at that point, any spell cast like this is... scary, especially if quickened...

think: +18 to dodge rolls and surprize checks
30P lightning bolt (12 force +18 successes on that spellcasting check to hit)
an extra 10+ dice using most weapons (i've never even seen a panther cannon before... alright, i'm ready to go)
maxing out anyone's physical stats (need a weakling str 6 troll to have 15 str? no problem!)
paralyzing the majority of anyone, or anything, with decrease
healing someone from the edge of death to full health
armor 15+, perminantly (unless you know someone who can dispell 15 +15 + 18 dice of doom)
if you wanted to be a jerk, invisible full body armor and invisible riot shield
the fling power (thats right, 9P before successes on the test to hit with that axe)

i honestly think the only thing keeping immortal elves from waging DBZ-like fights is that they're still elves, and expected to act like royalty. That and its just plain silly to use phenominal cosmic power for something so petty as mortals.


i'm betting there are some mistakes made in this post. But the greatest mistake would be underestimating just what an immortal elf can do.
SL James
QUOTE (McGravin)
(SR2 combat phases were 5 seconds, right?).

Three. It's always been three.

See, the problem is that this wasn't exactly a big deal in SR3. Kind of a shame it is in SR4.
hobgoblin
because of movement speed?
James McMurray
QUOTE (SL James)
See, the problem is that this wasn't exactly a big deal in SR3. Kind of a shame it is in SR4.

What changed in your opinion? Going insanely fast has been a powerful character theme for a long time.
2bit
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The bad new is that this doubles your hypothetical chatacter's potential speed to a whopping 1718.4 mph. The good news is that even an IE would have trouble resisting 19P drain.

Oh, that's not so bad. I mean it's not escape velocity or anything nyahnyah.gif
Demerzel
Well the IE thing was just that if a mere rating 6 initiate can do this then the power of the extremely magical is frightening.

Anyhow, if errata changes it to force x hits then itís even easier to be a supersonic mage. Consider:

Rating 4 initiate with magic 10 casts levitate at max 20 force.

If he has 18 spellcasting pool (10 magic + 8 from skill/foci not hard), thatís roughly 6 hits on the spellcasting test then edge to reroll failures, netting another 4. But say we only need 8 anything else is gravy so the odds of 8 are probably pretty good.

20 force x 8 hits = 160 m/turn = 53.33 m/s = 119.3 mph

Force 8 spirit with movement makes that 954.43, nearly 200mph to spare over supersonic.

So drain is (20/2)+2 = 12P, Say he uses edge and gets a minimum of 4 successes, heís still conscious, throws 20 karma at quickening, and boom near permanently sportscar fast. And spirit enhanced supersonic.

Then he hits his docwagon bracelet or has his buddy throw an equally powerful heal spell (or does it himself). Whoever said powerful magic didnít come at the cost of a painful ordeal?

The cost?
Initiate grade 4 = 70 Karma.
Improving Magic from 5 to 10 = 120 Karma
Quickening = 20 Karma.

All this for 210 Karma, and itís not at all the only thing you can do thatís assuming a pretty standard character to start with, not minmaxed for this example.

Also if youíre worried about walking/flying through astral barriers. The quickened levitate above would get 60 dice to defeat barriers. (Force x 2 + Karma spent), not too bad for almost any barrier youíd accidentally blunder acrossÖ

Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (McGravin)
Convert the Horse Totem from Magic in the Shadows to a new Mentor Spirit, and you don't even have to summon a spirit.

Back in SR2, a friend had an Elf Horse Shaman with cyberskates and a maxed out Quickness and four levels of Muscle Toner.

That's a 7 Quickness plus 4 for Muscle Toner, times 6 for cyberskates, times his essence of 5 thanks to the Movement ability granted by the Horse Totem (1 point of essense sacrificed for cyberskates). You get 330 meters per combat phase, or 66 meters per second (SR2 combat phases were 5 seconds, right?).

That's a little under 148 mph or 238 kph, on par with the Eurocar Westwind Turbo. Without casting any spells or summoning any spirits, there's no drain to resist.

..hate to hit a rock in the road or a slightly uneven slab of pavement without having the Guard power backing me up.


..."Len, get the spatula for this one"
Shrike30
See, it's the thought of whipping around town, popping barriers as I went, that would scare me nyahnyah.gif Eventually, someone's going to get tired of it and tag you with a badass spell or a sniper rifle (or a drone missile, since you're moving so damn fast...).
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
(snip)
The good news is that even an IE would have trouble resisting 19P drain.
(snip)

19P?

That's the second or third time I've seen drain miscalculated horribly lately.

What's with the meme that drain is no longer determined by F/2 +/- mod?

QUOTE (p. 195 Drain Value)
Drain is variable, based on the spellís Force ų 2, rounded down, and modifi ed by Drain modifi ers appropriate to each spell.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
(snip)
The good news is that even an IE would have trouble resisting 19P drain.
(snip)

19P?

That's the second or third time I've seen drain miscalculated horribly lately.

What's with the meme that drain is no longer determined by F/2 +/- mod?

QUOTE (p. 195 Drain Value)
Drain is variable, based on the spellís Force ų 2, rounded down, and modifi ed by Drain modifi ers appropriate to each spell.

Excuse me. Is 36/2 +1 no longer 19?

Is it that (2*18)/2 is no longer equal to 18 or is it that 18 + 1 no longer 19? Really, someone needs to keep me informed about these things.

Or maybe drain is calcuated using an alternate number system, like modulo 4.

36 converted to mod 4 = 0. 0/2 = 0. 0+1 = 1. Wow, that some very cheep drain for a force 36 spell (assuming that 18*2 is still 36).


Can you tell that I'm being sarcastic?

ork.gif
Mr. Unpronounceable
OK, so 36/2 + 1 = 19, no argument...

Now, where's 36 coming from?

Nevermind - I see where you were getting it (though I think an assumption is wrong.)

The example given was a rating 6 initiate with a rating 6 power focus.
that's 12 magic (possibly) + 6 extra dice for casting, but you were reading (but not showing your work wink.gif ) it as magic = 18, overcasting at 36...

However, at most that's a force 24 spell - the power focus adds dice to any magic attribute test, but nowhere does it say it raises other magic related caps (such as the max rating for an adept power, or the force at which spells can be cast)

QUOTE (BBB @ p. 192)

Power foci are the most potent and treasured of all. Possession of a power focus feeds a magicianís Magic directly, making her efforts more powerful in all forms of magical ability. A power focus adds its Force to all tests in which the magicianís Magic is included. A single power focus can increase a magicianís ability to cast spells, call on and control spirits, and bypass astral barriers. A power focus does not help in Counterspelling a hostile spell as it is cast, nor can it duplicate the unique ability of a weapon focus.

(bolding mine)

If I'm in the wrong here, I'd love a page reference.
Demerzel
That's basically the it. I read the line in the power focus description, "Possession of a power focus feeds a magicianís Magic directly, making her efforts more powerful in all forms of magical ability. " to mean that it adds its force to the Magic Attribute, as it did in prior SR versions. I'm not so sure anymore. . .

Personally in my games I plan on ruleing that it adds to magic while activated, jusst because I like that better. =) My second speed calculations do not include that assumption however.

SL James
QUOTE (James McMurray)
QUOTE (SL James @ Jul 26 2006, 06:30 AM)
See, the problem is that this wasn't exactly a big deal in SR3. Kind of a shame it is in SR4.

What changed in your opinion? Going insanely fast has been a powerful character theme for a long time.

That's what I'm saying. It seems like it's harder to do something that I've seen happen all the time in earlier editions.
James McMurray
Ah, I thought you meant it was a bigger deal in that it was more powerful.
Edward
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (McGravin)
Convert the Horse Totem from Magic in the Shadows to a new Mentor Spirit, and you don't even have to summon a spirit.

Back in SR2, a friend had an Elf Horse Shaman with cyberskates and a maxed out Quickness and four levels of Muscle Toner.

That's a 7 Quickness plus 4 for Muscle Toner, times 6 for cyberskates, times his essence of 5 thanks to the Movement ability granted by the Horse Totem (1 point of essense sacrificed for cyberskates). You get 330 meters per combat phase, or 66 meters per second (SR2 combat phases were 5 seconds, right?).

That's a little under 148 mph or 238 kph, on par with the Eurocar Westwind Turbo. Without casting any spells or summoning any spirits, there's no drain to resist.

..hate to hit a rock in the road or a slightly uneven slab of pavement without having the Guard power backing me up.


..."Len, get the spatula for this one"

Remember people the movement power makes traveling at the accelerated speed as easy as traveling at your normal speed. if the ground conditions would allow you to sprint on cyber skates the movement power will allow you to do so with the speed multiplier. Its magic.

The same goes for breaking the sound barrier, if you could travel at ľ sound and have a force 5 spirit use the movement power you will take no harm from passing the speed of sound. If you have the thrust but not the durability to pass the sound barrier (early attempts supersonic flight) and have a force 2 spirit use the movement power you will safely cross the sound brayer and explode when you hit twice the speed of sound.

Al forces on yourself, and between yourself and the ground are as they would be if you where traveling at your normal speed,

James McMurray
The Movement power description in my book doesn't say that. Is it specified elsewhere? If not, then it's up to the GM, and those GMs that don't want people breaking the sound barrier are more than free to interpret it as being dangerous. Of course, even if it does say that, they're still free to rule it the other way, it just puts them firmly in the House Rule camp. Not that that's a bad thing. smile.gif
Mr. Unpronounceable
*shrug*

every time it's come up as a player - I've always insisted on two spirits - one using the movement power, one using the guard power.

Mach 2 fenderbenders are a PITA.
Shrike30
Supersonic mages are why we've got supersonic bullets. nyahnyah.gif
Lagomorph
psh, speed of sound? who cares about that, now the speed of light however... THATS an accomlishment. ork.gif

edit:
okay, by my calc, it would take a magic of 1104 to be able to pass the speed of light. I used the equation:

Force=magicrating
Force^2*((Force*2+8dice)/3)/3 = m/s

this is a condensation of Force*Nethits*Force of spirit with movement power.
Net hits is computed with the magic rating, and a equivilent rated powerfocus + 6skill +2 spec.
Divided by 3 to get m/s since a turn is 3 seconds.

with a Magic rating of 1104, you get a speed of 3.00 X 10^8 m/s
Demerzel
No prob, a Magic 1500 Mage overcasts a Force 3000 Levitate, And manages to get 3000 successes. Speed = 9.00E+6meters per turn. A mere force 100 spirit turns that into 9.00E+8 meters per turn = 3.00E+8 m/s and you're just a hair over c.

Now, someone else want to calculate the drain?
Moon-Hawk
Bah. Drain. That's what blood magic is for. You just have to sacrifice a planet.
Lagomorph
Isn't the drain just 3000/2+2 or 1502P? Or my calc would end up with 1104/2+2 = 554S?
Demerzel
Heh, 1502p, figure he soaks a few hundred. What does it look like when you suddenly take 1000p, and will it damage people standing next to her?


(Note gender switching just for irdeggman)
hyzmarca
1501P and the Spirit's net hits.

The real problem with violating the lightspeed barrier it that you'd arrive at your destination before you left.

Well, that, and past the speed of light your energy (Gmc^2) is an imaginary number.

These probably violates the magic vs spacetime rules.

Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Bah. Drain. That's what blood magic is for. You just have to sacrifice a planet.

Actually, a small village may do.
Dewar
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Bah. Drain. That's what blood magic is for. You just have to sacrifice a planet.

That's an interesting Final Fantasy kind of plot. Some crazy guy thinks if he can exceede the speed of light that he'll become immortal or some such, and thus goes about trying to sacrifice the whole city of seattle/the whole planet.
GrepZen
THX, you have pretty much just described the plot for StarTrek Generations. Who knew Kirk was a god...I guess thats why he got all the green women.
James McMurray
Mmmmm... green women.
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