Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Phantasmal torches, imaginary booms
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Spookymonster
Physical Illusions (Trid Entertainment, Trid Phantasm, etc.) affect electronic and mechanical sensors, as well as living beings. The way I figure it, this means they either create light or manipulate existing light. Likewise, they either create sound or manipulate existing sounds. With this in mind, how would you rule the following:

If I create a Trid Phantasm of a Lone Star patrol car with sirens screaming and lights blazing in a darkened alley, does the alley get any brighter?

If I create a phantasmal torch in the middle of a pitch-dark room, will it cast any light?

Can I use Trid Phantasm to create a sonic boom? To shatter glass?

My team is in a firefight in a dark alley. I use Trid Entertainment (voluntary targets only; involuntary or unaware targets are unaffected) to create a street lamp overhead. My team is obviously voluntary, while the opposing team is unaware, and therefore involuntary. Does my team get the benefit of a well-lit alley, while the other team still suffers darkness penalties?

Just something that's been bothering me for the last few days. Figured I'd bother you all with it as well wink.gif.
Backgammon
Yes, but only within it's radius of effect. Take spell like darkness, that englobes an area with complete lack of light. It follows you can do the same, but with light instead.

If however you want something that can cast *real* light, beyond the range of the illusion, you'll need a manipulation spell like a force 1 or 2 laser or fireball.
Lilt
Technically you could create a light in the darkened room, but you would only be creating a phantasm of the walls with light on them. If you have never seen the walls then you can't create the illusion properly.

Technically you could create an illusionary lightwhich would make the enemy brighter (thus removing the darkness penalties) but I'd make you (the spellcaster) make perception tests to accurately portray the people in your illusion. if you screw-up; you may even give penalties to your teammates or make them see a pile of trash (which you think may be an enemy crouching) as an enemy. It dosen't matter that it is voluntary as you don't need to illuminate your teammates at-all.

There are other techniques you could use too; Watcher spirits could follow them around and manifest as pink glows around their bodies which, as long as the watchers didn't screw-up, could remove some darkness penalties.

If you really want real light then you would be looking for a manipulation spell (maybe an area-effect version of the low-light/thermographic vision spell would provide similar bonuses in the situation you describe).
Spookymonster
QUOTE (Lilt)
Technically you could create a light in the darkened room, but you would only be creating a phantasm of the walls with light on them. If you have never seen the walls then you can't create the illusion properly.

I disagree. The description for Phantasm makes no such requirement, nor does it give penalties for not having a detailed knowledge of the targetted spell area. You only need to have seen the subject your illusion is modeled after once before attempting the spell.

I'd say that a physical illusion (either Trid Entertainment or Trid Phantasm) can be used to mimic the effects of the Light spell (radius of Magic rating in meters, reduce lighting modifiers by +1 per 2 successes, up to max Force). I'd also say that Trid Entertainment illusions are visible to all, and therefore would provide light to all teams in the alley firefight. However, Trid Entertainment illusions are transparent, easily ignored, and obviously fake - they provide no distractive value to non-voluntary targets at all. Filling the alley with a thousand glowing butterflies would provide better lighting, but wouldn't throw a samurai's aim off at all.
Sphynx
If you cast an illusion, the effect is only of the illusion. If you illusionally make a 450 watt light, then you have a huge bright spot that provides no light at all. IF you want to make it look more realistic, you'll have to also illusionally make the walls as well where you assume they are at. It is not a manipulation of light itself, not is it like a television. It's just an illusion, nothing more. Whatever is outside of your illusion is not effected visually.

Sphynx
TinkerGnome
A mana based illusion would not cast real light since it is only inside someone's head. A physical based illusion would cast light. That's how the spell works, it creatates an image of something that light bounces off of (or the illusion creates the projected light directly, as the case may be) and then the human/robotic eye then picks and converts into a picture. If the illusion looks like it's blaring 1,000,000 watts of light, then it obviously is since it has to appear that way somehow.

I'd even go so far as allowing the light to extend beyond the spell radius, since the illusion is visible outside that radius. However, I doubt I'd let entertainment spells do the same things. If you really need light badly enough to cast trid phantasm (Drain +1D), you should be able to get it. After all, light is only a drain +2M spell, reguardless of their relative classifications.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Spookymonster 
Physical Illusions (Trid Entertainment, Trid Phantasm, etc.) affect electronic and mechanical sensors, as well as living beings. The way I figure it, this means they either create light or manipulate existing light. Likewise, they either create sound or manipulate existing sounds.

They create data -neither light nor sound, matter or energy.

I guess we'll disagree here forever, but the reason Illusions cannot create real sound or real light is because both of those have real affects and can cause real damage -and by definition Illusion spells do neither of these things.

However, I would allow a Light Illusion spell and a Trid Light Illusion spell with light drain that would reduce darkness modifiers inside the area affect by up to the force. The light would emanate from everywhere and be obviously magical. Only those inside the area affect would benefit though they would suffer attacking into the darkness. The light would not be visible outside the spell's radius (Force X Magic Attribute).

Sunday_Gamer
Throwing in my 2 nuyen.gif

I use the trid phantasm a fair amount (whichever ever one is the best one, the one that can also fool machinery, I THINK it's called Trid Phantasm.

The most important thing to remember is that it's an illusion, it's not real.

Can an illusionary sound break a window? No, you can't fool a window with an illusion.
Can illusionary light light up an alley? No, technically it can't, unless the caster can see the alley then he can just create the illusion of a lit alleyway, which would serve the same purpose but if for instance, there was an elf hiding behind a garbage bin and the caster didn't know he was there, the elf certainly wouldn't show up as part of the illusion.

However, an illusionary sound can certainly be heard from outside the area effect, the sound doesn't just die, it's sound, even if it's just the illusion of sound. You don't have to standing IN the area effect to see a visual illusion, the area effect dictates how large the illusion can be, anyone who can perceive it falls under it's influence. If you make a trid phantasm of a sign, some guy thousands of yards away using magnified vision can read it. The "effective" range of an illusion is whatever range it can be perceived at, by whatever sense it is trying to fool.

Sunday
Spookymonster
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Oct 16 2003, 07:34 PM)
QUOTE
Spookymonster 
Physical Illusions (Trid Entertainment, Trid Phantasm, etc.) affect electronic and mechanical sensors, as well as living beings. The way I figure it, this means they either create light or manipulate existing light. Likewise, they either create sound or manipulate existing sounds.

They create data -neither light nor sound, matter or energy.

For that data to be perceived by a viewer/listener/feeler/etc., it has to have a vector - visual data travels by light, audible data travels by sound waves, tactile data travels by pressure and temperature, etc.

If illusions cannot manipulate the ambient light/sound/pressure/etc., then most illusions would be glaringly obvious. Take my cop car in a dark alley example; if the illusion shows sirens blaring and lights flashing, but the alley's ambient light level and sound level never changes, then it's a dead giveaway that it isn't real.
Sphynx
Exactly, so you have to 'fake the walls' as well. Illusions do not light up anything and they definitely don't manipulate light or any other element.

Sphynx
krishcane
I have to disagree with you there. If a physical illusion can affect sensors, than it must have changed actual light and sound. The sensors have no "brain" to affect, so the only way they're going to record something is in the physical components of the electronics get stimulated by incoming energy. That stimulation, which stimulates the electronic parts in just the same way that light or sound would, would also stimulate bricks, rocks, the air, etc in just the same way light or sound would. The spell certainly isn't distinguishing garbage cans from cameras from the sidewalk -- it's just emitting energy.

Whether that energy inherently is light or sound or not is irrelevant -- it affects physical objects just as if it was light or sound. It stimulates the pixel matrix on cameras, it moves the little fabric in microphones to stimulate the wiring, and it will reflect off of mirrors, be absorbed and re-radiating by phosphorescents, etc. It will light up the surrounding area, and loud enough sounds will shake windows.

What an illusion couldn't is achieve resonance effects or shockwave effects due to coherent sound or light. In other words, sonic booms, effective lasers, resonance-shattering glass, or even activating a tuning fork is out of the question for illusions, because they aren't focused enough for that. They are about macro effects. Manipulation spells would provide those shockwave and resonance effects.

Could an illusion hurt your ears or shake your windows? Sure. Could it actually shatter your eardrum or windows? I'd say no -- or that it would have to be an exceptionally high-force illusion (maybe greater than Force 12 I would allow some effects).

--K

Edit: Another way to think about this: Physical illusions are resisted by the Intelligence of the view, even through sensors. If a video camera records an illusion, and later three different people with different Intelligence attributes review the tape, they all roll separately to resist the illusion at that time. Obviously, they are not resisting the spell directly (ie. pushing back on the energy). Instead, I would say they are rolling Intel to spot flaws in the image that the illusion provided. The flaws are there on the tape, objectively. Whether they are seen and noticed depends on the Intel of the viewer.
Sphynx
Regardless, if you manipulate an element such as light, it's an Elemental Manipulation spell, not an illusionary spell.

Take a look at a Physical Detection spell like Catalog, Detect Object or Night Vision. It doesn't alter the output those detected objects emit, it instead effects your I/O process. Same applies to Illusionary spells. The biggest mistake made is that the physical laws of science apply to magic. They don't. Physical Illusions, such as Improved Invisibility even, work because your power of Will effects the objects/people looking at what you've created. You just convince these objects/people that they see (or don't see) that which you Will for them to see (or not see).

Illusions do not effect light, not the pixel matrix of cameras etc. They 'magically' cause the I/O to receive that which isn't there.

Sphynx

Edit: People looking at a recording of an Illusion don't get a save. The Camera was the indirect-target and lacks the ability to resist, so those that see what the camera saw see the illusion. No save.
Sunday_Gamer
QUOTE (krishcane)
I have to disagree with you there.  If a physical illusion can affect sensors, than it must


... be magic??

Sunday
krishcane
Okay, I understand your visualization if it now. I have trouble with it because it gives infinite range to the reach of the magic -- in other words, a spy satellite in geosynchronous orbit 24,000 miles above the streets has its I/O circuits magically affected, despite planet-sized distance and the astral void of space. Likewise, a camera located behind a rating 20 ward is affected the same way as a camera just sitting out in the open, if it's looking at the physical illusion. I'm uncomfortable with that -- even thought it's "just magic", that violates some of the normal rules for magic that have been established.

For this reason, it works better for me to assume that the magic of the spell is confined to the area right where the spell is cast, and the resistance test is there to allow an observer to spot flaws in the imperfect illusion.

But.... whatever works for ya!

--K

Edit: You know what's interesting? The Phantasm/Trid Phantasm spell states that it creates "visual illusions" and "images". It says nothing at all about sound. I'd always assumed that it included sound also, but it really doesn't say that. If it's visual-only, that simplifies the real-world application. You could really only use it effectively on inanimate objects, or for brief spooky glimpses of beings. It couldn't make for a convincing, whole-experience interaction with something.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Sunday Gamer)
... be magic??

I guess you can't argue with that. Except to say Not In My Game.
Spookymonster
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Regardless, if you manipulate an element such as light, it's an Elemental Manipulation spell, not an illusionary spell. 

Straight from the BBB, p. 195:
"Indirect illusion spells manipulate energy to create an illusionary image or sound or other sense-based effect, fooling the senses."

So indirect illusions (such as Trid Phantasm) can indeed manipulate light and sound.

QUOTE
Physical Illusions, such as Improved Invisibility even, work because your power of Will effects the objects/people looking at what you've created.  You just convince these objects/people that they see (or don't see) that which you Will for them to see (or not see).


Actually, that sounds more like a directed illusion spell. BBB, p. 195:
"Directed illusion spells are cast at a target and affect his mind or senses."
Spookymonster
QUOTE (krishcane)
Okay, I understand your visualization if it now.  I have trouble with it because it gives infinite range to the reach of the magic -- in other words, a spy satellite in geosynchronous orbit 24,000 miles above the streets has its I/O circuits magically affected, despite planet-sized distance and the astral void of space.  Likewise, a camera located behind a rating 20 ward is affected the same way as a camera just sitting out in the open, if it's looking at the physical illusion.  I'm uncomfortable with that -- even thought it's "just magic", that violates some of the normal rules for magic that have been established.

Directed illusion spells only affect the target of the spell, or those viewers within the spell's radius (for area effect spells). If you are not the target, or if you are outside the radius of an area effect spell, you are unaffected - you see (hear, feel, etc.) nothing.

Indirect illusions are different in that they do not target viewers at all. Rather, they target the object or location that is to be hidden and/or disguised. The radius of an area effect indirect illusion does not determine who/what can see the illusion, but rather how big the illusion can be.

For example, let's say I try to cast Trid Phantasm on the Arcology. I want it to appear as if the pyramid is crawling with snakes. With a Magic rating of 6, I certainly won't be able to cover the whole building. However, I can still create a 12m diameter circle of snakes on one side of the building, and that circle may be visible from across the street, across the city, and yes, even from space.

QUOTE
Edit:  You know what's interesting?  The Phantasm/Trid Phantasm spell states that it creates "visual illusions" and "images".  It says nothing at all about sound.  I'd always assumed that it included sound also, but it really doesn't say that.  If it's visual-only, that simplifies the real-world application.  You could really only use it effectively on inanimate objects, or for brief spooky glimpses of beings.  It couldn't make for a convincing, whole-experience interaction with something.


Yeah, they haven't fixed that in the errata yet. However, this is corrected in MITS, p. 53:
"Phantasm is a multi-sense, major change indirect illusion (base Drain Level S). It is sustained (+1 Drain Power), an illusion (-1 Drain Power) and area effect (+1 Drain Level) for a final Drain of (D). Trid Phantasm, the physical version (+1 Drain Power), is +1 (D)."
Sphynx
Just an FYI, your Straight from quote doesn't prove your assumption at all. The energy manipulated is Mana energy, not sound/light, that falls under the category of Elemental Manipulation.

Directed illusions are indeed cast at a target and affect his mind or senses. Indirect illusions have indirect-targets (so you're not casting the spell at the target being effected) but still affect the senses.

Both types (as both of your quotes show) affect the senses, that's what illusion spells do. But that is ALL they do, affect the senses, not create or manipulate physical properties to perform that effect.

Sphynx
Spookymonster
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Just an FYI, your Straight from quote doesn't prove your assumption at all.  The energy manipulated is Mana energy, not sound/light, that falls under the category of Elemental Manipulation.

proof.gif
The rulebook places no conditions on the energy being manipulated. If that's how you interpret it, that's fine, but it isn't necessarily supported in canon.

For further evidence, look at another indirect illusion spell - Silence. It suppresses all sounds within its radius. It specifically mentions that Hearing Perception Tests "across the field" are affected - that is anyone standing outside the spell's area of effect and trying to listen in/through the illusionary silence. This would seem to indicate that things outside of the spell's area of effect are indeed affected by the illusion; if they weren't, then the sound should resume its normal volume once exiting the spell's effect. Using your 'mana manipulation' theory, how is this possible? If we aren't affecting 'real' energy (sound waves), where does the sound go?

QUOTE
Directed illusions are indeed cast at a target and affect his mind or senses.  Indirect illusions have indirect-targets (so you're not casting the spell at the target being effected) but still affect the senses.

This is incorrect. The fact that the target number for the spell is a fixed number and not based on an attribute supports this.
Sphynx
QUOTE (Spookymonster)
The rulebook places no conditions on the energy being manipulated. If that's how you interpret it, that's fine, but it isn't necessarily supported in canon.

It is supported by canon via the definition of manipulation spells.

QUOTE

For further evidence, look at another indirect illusion spell - Silence. It suppresses all sounds within its radius. It specifically mentions that Hearing Perception Tests "across the field" are affected - that is anyone standing outside the spell's area of effect and trying to listen in/through the illusionary silence. This would seem to indicate that things outside of the spell's area of effect are indeed affected by the illusion; if they weren't, then the sound should resume its normal volume once exiting the spell's effect. Using your 'mana manipulation' theory, how is this possible? If we aren't affecting 'real' energy (sound waves), where does the sound go?


Yes, it effects your sensory perception of sound, it doesn't actually interupt the sound waves in an area. Rather, as described earlier, objects and beings that would normally hear this sound are 'Will'd to not hear it.

QUOTE
This is incorrect. The fact that the target number for the spell is a fixed number and not based on an attribute supports this.


How so? Its the Force being used as a resistance that disagrees with you, not the TN to cast the spell.

Anyhows, I'm not going to continue argueing it with you. You're no longer asking how the system works, you're trying to convince and I'm not into debating illusion spells all over again, I've done my 100's of threads on it already and this could go on for 100's of posts. I see your point, I agreed at one time with it, but I now realize that to manipulate energy you have to use a Manipulation spell, therefor Illusion spells are nothing more then 'liar' spells, telling you (or the object) that you see or hear something that you don't actually see/hear. You won't find your proof of that by quoting the illusion stuff, that's wide open for interpretation and can definitely be read in in-numerous ways. But as you break the spell categories up and look at it from an overall view, you see that illusions do nothing more than 'lie'. They don't actually effect any physical energy at all. That means, light, sound, radio waves, or any other wave that exists. If they did, you'd have the "Light" spell located under the Manipulation category under the Illusion category instead.

Sphynx
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012