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thejadedgm
Alot of people as me, "Why would an average guy get a cyberlimb?"

In my games, a person without cyber is either a freak or a mage. Even an everyday wage slave probably has some sort of cyber (comm-links, data-jacks or what-not).

It is to me a style preference. Admittedly, I played Cyberpunk prior to SR, so I like the twisted sense of distopian fantasy of a person who cuts off a perfectly good arm to get a high-chrome cyberarm. If style has gone so far beyond the pale, that to be 'cool' a person has to undergo surgery at a boutique in the mall, well... isn't that true Cyberpunk?

I dunno, being a big Gibson fan, I like grit. The streets of the sprawl smell of urine and ozone, most 'average joe' pedestrian wears breathers and carries some sort of personal defense when leaving their corporate arcology. Those not in the arcology probably have a PanicButton contract at least.

I think SR can support this, but being a stylistic choice, I have no doubts that some people will disagree.
James McMurray
I don't think anyone will disagree that SR can support it.

edit: I don't think anyone will seriously disagree that SR can support the sort of world where anyone that can afford cyberware gets it. It isn't necessary for the game, nor even desirable in some peoples' eyes, but there's nothing in the rules that would preclude it.
JonathanC
Minor cyberwear (datajacks, for example) are common place among regular people...that's how office workers connect to their computers, after all. Fashionistas and such are commonly described in SR as having all kinds of weird animated tattoos, exotic cybereyes, etc. Elf and Ork posers achieve their look via surgical procedures...I'd say the spirit, and to a certain extent the letter, of what you're talking about is present in SR canon.

Though personally, I've always felt SR owes more to Heinlein's "Friday" than Gibson's work, but that's just me.
thejadedgm
I agree, though I tend to inject more Gibson than most.
GoblynByte
My $0.02

Remember that cyberpunk isn't just the cyber. The greater message of cyberpunk is the struggle, and in many cases outright rebellion against the oppressive nature of technology and those that would use it to further their dark intentions. A common theme of cyberpunk is the technological singularity. The point at which technology develops faster than can be dealt with by the "average person." The powerful prey on this ignorance by using technology that isn't understood by the general masses. Through this they keep control. It's all about the control.

But I don't see the edge runners and shadow runners as "average people." The cyberpunk is a person who decides to fight fire with fire. They refuse to be a victim of the technology and refuse to be controlled by what they themselves can take control of. So they emerse themselves completely in the technology so that they can shove it right back in the faces of those who think they can control the ignorant. So in a sense, every piece of metal they put into their body isn't just a style statement, but a big screw you! to those who think that they have control. No matter how "useless" the piece of cyberware is in a practical sense, it holds a lot of power in a political sense.

In my opinion Shadowrun is no different in this view. The great thing is that they even opened this up beyond the cyber piece of cyberpunk to include magic. It's all a way for those with power to keep power by maintaining control. Unfortunately for them, magic proves to be a lot less controlable. smile.gif

Again, just my $0.02.
JonathanC
QUOTE (thejadedgm)
I agree, though I tend to inject more Gibson than most.

Understandable, given that to inject more Heinlein into SR would involve group marriages and all kinds of freaky societal ideas. eek.gif


I love.gif Friday, even if I thought the ending was rather weak, and arguably misogynistic.
Aaron
QUOTE (GoblynByte)
Remember that cyberpunk isn't just the cyber.

What he said.

Remember, in one of the seminal works of the genre, Gibson's Neuromancer, the main character doesn't even have cyberware; he connects to the Matrix via worn 'trodes (which is an option in SR4). In Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, Hiro Protagonist, the best-named main character ever, is one of the best hackers in the world and has no cyberware, either. Deckard in Phillip K. Dick's Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? is likewise metal-free (and no, he wasn't an android, at least not until the Director's Cut).
JonathanC
Strange Days is another chrome-free cyberpunk story...well, *I* consider it cyberpunk, anyway. Probably the only movie made about chipheads that I can think of.
Ravor
Well personally in my Shadowrun Universe strolling down mainstreet you would tend to see at least a few of the following...

(1) People with tails, hoofed feet, horns, fur, and other exotic 'fashion statements'.

(2) At least one Crome Limb, including the occasional Cyberskull.

(3) Datajacks set in strange places, such as set in one's forehead or even Eye Socket.

(4) A full Body GeneMod Conversion, I.E. A person who has paid alot of money to have their DNA rewritten and combined with another creature, think of an extreme example of (1).

But then again, I sometimes I tend to get confused on the differences between CyberPunk and CyberFreak.



Samaels Ghost
If that stuff was all used comestically I doubt runners would have a hard time getting a hold of it. Gene therapy, would that cost essence? To what extent is DNA really changed in that process?
GoblynByte
QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (GoblynByte)
Remember that cyberpunk isn't just the cyber.

What he said.

Remember, in one of the seminal works of the genre, Gibson's Neuromancer, the main character doesn't even have cyberware; he connects to the Matrix via worn 'trodes (which is an option in SR4). In Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, Hiro Protagonist, the best-named main character ever, is one of the best hackers in the world and has no cyberware, either. Deckard in Phillip K. Dick's Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? is likewise metal-free (and no, he wasn't an android, at least not until the Director's Cut).

But wasn't there some reason he didn't have any cyberware? I thought I remember him having been "burned out" or some such thing to where he had neural jacks at some point in time but had them ruined as a way of punishment. Wait...maybe it was just his nervous system that was fried. I can't remember. It's been a long time since I've read that book.

This is all true, though, I think. The seminal cyberpunk book, Neuromancer by many accounts, features a lot of the cybergear that is prevalent in cyberpunk roleplaying (but not necessarily cyberpunk literature). But the seminal cyberpunk movie, Bladerunner (again by many accounts, including Gibson himself who is quoted as saying that when he watched Bladerunner it was as if what was in his mind was put on the screen), had almost no cyberware at all. However, it might have had an even more prophetic view of the future in which biotechnology was the name of the game instead of messy, clunky cyberware. But in the end the moral was the same: "who are we to make straight what God has made crooked?" It's all about control. In Bladerunner it was a bit more "universal" than Neuromancer (being more personal control, I think...unless you get into the whole Deckard was a replicant thing).

So there's a wide range within even the "seminal" works of the amount and "style" of cyberware. As it should be with your own version of cyberpunk. Add this too, though. Shadowrun is definitely a bit more esoteric. As much so as it is stylistic. So it is easy to implant your own style without having to go too much against the ropes to justify it. smile.gif

Oh, and funny enough, Ridly Scott actually said in an interview once that Deckard was supposed to be a replicant. I don't care if he directed the movie. I disagree with him. wink.gif
Ravor
You know, I've never actually had a player want a *full* GeneMod, so I've never had to make any rules for it, just used it as scene fluff to show the extreme ends that spoiled rich kids will go to rebel against 'mommy'. My gut however would be to charge a bunch of Essence for the 'ability' to be a Side-Show Freak for the rest of your natural life. (For a plot reason I once ruled that the process couldn't be reversed without killing the subject...)

However, for the much milder (And reversable) examples of (1) I don't charge Essence, but then again the I've ruled that the changes are purely comestic in nature.


AngelWuff
my game seems to have dropped to strange fantasy... lessee

I got a heavily cybered, SURGEd porcupine street sammy chick.

a SURGED fox street mage and con artist

and a soon to be SURGEd (yeah, dropped the 'SURGE fully goes away after one year to increase my silly mutant score) moogle(?!) technomancer...

though I'm going with SR4's style. less blatant cyber, but a lot more minor things. nano tats, fiber optic hairs, odd skin colorations. and this is outside the 'club scene' where things can get really odd like 'kid stealth' legs for that demon look, wanna be elves, orks, vampires, shifters, demons, angels, furries, ect... then there's the 'flesh is a design flaw' group....

though like RL, most average people have a small thing, since jobs frown on customer service people being purple and having cat ears added on
WhiskeyMac
I tend to throw in a good mixture of GitS, Gibson, Philip K. Dick and humor. Most of my game is serious but there are times when funny shit has to hit the fan. Nothing like seeing that drone trash truck run over the chromed-out leader of a go-gang and then having bums fight over the corpse. Almost every character I make has the weirdness magnet and it gets good mileage biggrin.gif
Samaels Ghost
Which Philip K. Dick books do you suggest if I were looking for a Shadowrun/cyberpunkish feel? Any?
GoblynByte
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
Which Philip K. Dick books do you suggest if I were looking for a Shadowrun/cyberpunkish feel? Any?

Blech! Just watch Bladerunner. Pardon my opinion but Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep was one of the worst books I've ever read. Perhaps that's blasphemous of me to say in a thread like this, but I gained a whole new level of respect for Ridley when he basically re-wrote the entire story to make Bladerunner. All due respect, of course. I suppose it does hold some elements useable for Shadowrun (he said grudgingly). biggrin.gif

Can't speak much else on Phillip K. Dick's work, though. The movie Minority Report was good, but don't know how it compares to the book (short story wasn't it?).
Brahm
If you are going to check out movies definately check out A Scanner Darkly. It, unlike most all previous movies based on Dick's writing, is fairly close to the book. Probably a testimate to the original itself more than anything. The book itself is a real twisted piece of work. Certainly not for everyone, but not completely inaccessable.

It is not particularly futuristic outside of the funky suits, but it certainly is set in the fringe of society and in the criminal realm along with The Man having somewhat decended into facist madness.
Samaels Ghost
I just saw A Scanner Darkly and am in the process of turning it's themes into something useable and not out-right plagarism to use in my own games. I really did love the movie. I think my runners are going to have to be more wary of satelite surveilance from now on biggrin.gif
Demerzel
Heh, in the Minority Report story the John Anderton character chose to commit the murder for which he was framed in order to preserve the precrime division, and was given a extremely lienent sentance for doing it. The move was hardly even an approximation.
DireRadiant
"We Can Remember It for You Wholesale" 1966 short story used as the basis for "Total Recall"

Most of his written materials and the corresponding movies do not intersect well.
GoblynByte
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
Most of his written materials and the corresponding movies do not intersect well.

And in the case of Bladerunner, I felt the movie was a far supperior story. But that's probably because I saw the movie before I read the book. I'm also one of those rare individuals who actually like the un-narrated director's cut better than the theatrical release. biggrin.gif

I really like the Minority Report movie, but haven't read the story.
ornot
I far preferred the director's cut of Bladerunner and actually know few people who prefer the original release. Decker being a replicant adds a whole "are we really who we think we are?" slant to it.

Getting back to SR, I've been influenced by the comic Transmetropolitan a lot lately. I think the "technology overload" of traditional cyberpunk has been overlaid with a sort of "information overload".

In my games heavily chromed individuals are quite rare and political intrigue and muck rakeing provides more work for my runners than prototype theft. If my players weren't so damn moral they'd have wet work every month! "Councilmember X has voted against me for the last time!"
Critias
I think one of the reasons you don't run into very much "just 'cause I can!" cyberware in Shadowrun is hard Essence caps, that never, ever, go away. In CP:2020 (for instance) you roll dice for how much empathy is lost for most cyberware (so you might end up not losing much at all), you've got an amount of empathy to "spend" based upon an attribute (not an across-the-board 6), and that empathy comes back over time, as you get used to having that metal/plastic/whatever in your body.

Shadowrun? Nope. You've got a finite amount of Essence/Bio Index (or whatever it's called this week) to spend. The only way to get any back is to tear out old chrome. Therapy doesn't help, the passage of time doesn't help, nothing helps; every piece of you turned into datajack is a piece of your soul gone forever. Magicians lose the most, but even mundanes are wasting "space" -- if not for that useless "my poop smells like strawberries" bio-job your street sammie got, he might've had room for that new reflex recorder. That cybereye option just pushed your essence to 2.99 instead of 3.01, sorry, healing TNs have gone up for you...

...and that sort of thing.

And, well, let's not mention the actual nuyen/dollar costs of some of this stuff, compared to the similarly-powered modifications in CP:2020. One good job in CP can net a near-newbie Solo just about every piece of chrome he'd ever need; one good job in Shadowrun might pay your Rigger or Street Sammie's bills for a month.
Arz
QUOTE (Critias)

And, well, let's not mention the actual nuyen/dollar costs of some of this stuff, compared to the similarly-powered modifications in CP:2020. One good job in CP can net a near-newbie Solo just about every piece of chrome he'd ever need; one good job in Shadowrun might pay your Rigger or Street Sammie's bills for a month.

Have you looked at the costs in SR4? There is a significant reduction that is most noticeable with replacement limbs. Bioware is quite a bit more expensive in the change but I've never gotten a cyberpunk feel from bioware.
Brahm
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 2 2006, 12:45 PM)
I think one of the reasons you don't run into very much "just 'cause I can!" cyberware in Shadowrun is hard Essence caps, that never, ever, go away.

That is something that I kinda wished they would have put into SR4. Some way to slowly regain lost Essense, to attune your aura to the new you in the same way that the human body isn't fixed and slowly replaces itself molecule by molecule over time.

Either an Essense regain over time, or maybe even an Essense regain over time that could be sped up a bit with a karma expendature. So that quirky low functionality, high flavour cyberware/bioware would become more viable and introduced in equipment lists and seen more often rather than the flood of just another way boost your Init/Attributes.

EDIT I could only begin to imagine the roar of "that can't possibly happen in Shadowrun" that wolud rise up from the faithful fanbois if that was ever even hinted at by Fanpro. So yes, I realise it is a bit of a pipedream to think it could ever come to pass.
ornot
The risk of regenerating essence is mages/adepts with 'ware. This isn't a problem with CP:2020, but in SR everyone and his dog will be shelling out 5BP for at least adept at char gen.

Although purchasing essence through karma might work. After all, magic types have enough of a drain on their karma with initiations and learning spells while street sams have an excess of karma and need to spend nuyen to keep their edge.

Partly the essence limit is worked around by alpha- through delta-ware and I'd have thought that many runners (at least mine) don't last long enough to reach that kind of limit, but it would be an interesting houserule.
Critias
QUOTE (Arz)
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 2 2006, 01:45 PM)

And, well, let's not mention the actual nuyen/dollar costs of some of this stuff, compared to the similarly-powered modifications in CP:2020.  One good job in CP can net a near-newbie Solo just about every piece of chrome he'd ever need;  one good job in Shadowrun might pay your Rigger or Street Sammie's bills for a month.

Have you looked at the costs in SR4? There is a significant reduction that is most noticeable with replacement limbs. Bioware is quite a bit more expensive in the change but I've never gotten a cyberpunk feel from bioware.

Nope, can't say that I have. I will say it's one of the (relatively few) things I've heard about that I agree with, when it comes to changes they made. One of my biggest problems with SR1-3 was people quite literally doing Shadowrun after Shadowrun after Shadowrun just to save up for one piece of gear (and often that wouldn't even be one of the even more expensive, custom grade, examples).

It stretched the believability a little, but most especially when it came to custom stuff; "Let's see, Johnny, here's that three million nuyen payday you've been waiting on. Should you retire from this horribly dangerous life of crime...or invest in that new set of Wired Reflexes, to keep your 'edge' so you can stay in this career path you've picked for yourself, narrowly staying a half-step ahead of other people in initiative, and waiting for the next corporate kill-team to catch up to you? +2 Reaction +1 d6 extra Initiative, or...that chain of tropical islands you've been saving up for?"
Brahm
SR4 Bioware is still nearly that bad for Initiative, even though each extra IP is arguably somewhat more precious than before. It'll set you back 240,000 for the top rating Synaptic Boosters in regular grade. At delta grade it is 2.4 million. The cost jump from Beta to Delta is a doozy now.

But it'll only cost you 1.5 Essense, and only 50% of that if you happen to have more Essense loss from cyberware than from bioware. So doubling the cost for Alpha, doubling again to Beta, and so on isn't nearly the same pressing as it was for the old cyberware.

Wired Reflexes 3 is a paltry 100,000 nuyen.gif, although if you go all the way up to Delta grade it'll set you back 1 million, that still pretty cheap. Unfortunately it is for chumps and Cyberzombies, who aren't known for their cost effectiveness, because it chews up 5 points of Essense.
underaneonhalo
In my games replacing flesh with cyberlimbs is just unethical for alot of docs. A large hospital isn't going to waste the bed space or surgeons time on a frivolous operation unless you pay out the ass. Street docs on the other hand (again, in my game) are either community minded saints who follow the Hippocratic Oath to the T, or Unlicensed butchers who are likely to take a couple redundant organs as a tip while you're under. I allow cyberlimbs at creation but once we start you better buy a monofilament chainsaw and a fifth of Trog Killer Select if you want a good doc to hook you up with that new chrome.

When you walk into a back alley docs office and see all that shiny new equipment just remember to ask yourself "Where did he get the money for all this, and why's he so happy to see me?"
GoblynByte
I do think that Minority Report (the movie) is an important one to look at in regards to cyberpunk elements and how they apply to Shadowrun. For two reasons actually.

First, it investigates the social impact on a "esoteric" element to society and its perception of right, wrong, and free will. This, I think, is essential to Shadowrun with the advent of magic and the ability to see the future and the past with greater accuracy.

Second, it shows great examples of an omnipresent "matrix" of information that is constantly identifying and bombarding anyone within that matrix. It also shows the great lengths an individual may have to take in order to escape that web and escape being identified or tracked. Obviously the average Shadowrunner has far more tools at his disposal to counter that technoloygy than anything that was presented in that movie. But I think the presentation of that overwhelming matrix of information can be very appropriate for the current technology level of Shadowrun.

This applys to the conversation of the appropriateness of cyberware for the average person in that even the most normal human would feel a bit creeped out by the idea of being constantly tracked and targeted by such a web. Thus, it wouldn't be too far fetched for such individuals to take 'simple' measures to escape it. So long as the matrix is not used in any 'official' law enforcement capacity, and as long as remaining unidentified within that network isn't illegal, there is deffinately a motivation for people to "disconnect" themselves. Ironic that it might require connecting themselves to machines in order to disconnect themselves from society. wink.gif
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