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Kalvan
1: Through reverse ASSIST and special Carrier Wave Technology shrunk to a "better than managable size", an Aztechnology "Black Ops" team has gained cybernetic control of a highly placed individual in the Vatican (Based on the assumption that cybernetic control can go places blood spirits can't). [Possibly in the Papal Curia] the hardware is EMP hardened, and is within the white matter of the brain (meaning that it can't be deactivated by conventional means without killing the subject in question). This is happening to a member of a conservative faction, one highly unlikely to associate with Deckers/Comlinkers, let alone Otaku/Technomacers.

Is there any way in 4th Edition to mechanically simulate an exorcism on the poor subject, one done without his knowlege so his "handlers" won't get wise and simply kill him before it's possibly too late. If not, will Street Magic and/or Unwired come out with rules covering this matter? I think something like this might be able to work (based on the reasoning of the reflexive principle IE "Posession is Posession"), but if not, I'll shrug my shoulders and move on.

2. (Related to the first) Is there any 4th Edition mechanic to simulate the struggle between a Shedit/Incect Spirit/Petro Loa and an AI for the control of the body and memories of an Otaku/Technomancer lost in the Matrix and unable to simply Jack Out or otherwise return to his Meat Body? One where said Otaku/Technomancer has returned and doesn't wan't either to skinride him?

3. Can an Astral Shallow play hob with an AR hotspot? Why or Why Not?
GrinderTheTroll
Given all we have is SR4.core, no one with certainty can answer any of these questions yet.
Kalvan
Bump and Restated!
Ancient History
I thought this was familiar.

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Is there any way in 4th Edition to mechanically simulate an exorcism on the poor subject, one done without his knowlege so his "handlers" won't get wise and simply kill him before it's possibly too late.


In the present, exorcisms are extremely rare and primarily used for what psychological relief they may bring to the 'possessed.' An exorcism in Sixth World terms generally means banishing a spirit, especially one that is possessing a person. The ritual for each is fairly identical, the only distinctions being that a magician can generally tell when a person is being possessed by a magical spirit, and in the latter case the priest must also be a magician if the ritual is to be at all effective (outside of the priest attempting to bargain with the spirit, such as offering his/her own body in exchange for letting the victim go).

That said, it is possible to simulate a possession to some degree. With the proper chemicals, conditioning, and/or implants the subject (let's call him Cardinal Svatik) could be induced by a different personality to act against his will (embedded remote-activated or triggered personfix program), experience black outs and/or short term amnesia (laés or other drugs), caused to speak in tongues, and other symptoms.

From there, the problem is twofold: hiding the evidence of the implants causing these effects, and convincing a magician that a spirit is/is not present (as needed). The first can be accomplished with careful subterfuge, the second may require a much more elaborate operation-either to convince the magician-priest that Cardinal Svatik is possessed by a spirit that can mask it's aura, or to convince the magician-priest that Cardinal Svatik would benefit from a ritual exorcism as a cure for his psychological malady.

That said, any magician trying to banish the 'spirit' possessing Cardinal Svatik will notice the complete lack of resistance during the banishing ritual, which means the game is up. A ritual conducted purely for psychological benefit would be much more 'successfully' as Cardinal Svatik would go through the charade of being 'healed.'

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2. (Related to the first) Is there any 4th Edition mechanic to simulate the struggle between a Shedit/Incect Spirit/Petro Loa and an AI for the control of the body and memories of an Otaku/Technomancer lost in the Matrix and unable to simply Jack Out or otherwise return to his Meat Body? One where said Otaku/Technomancer has returned and doesn't wan't either to skinride him?

At the moment, there is no indication that a hacker or agent could 'ride' a technomancer in this fashion. However, a technomancer could still resist being possessed/inhabited by a spirit using the rules in Street Magic.

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3. Can an Astral Shallow play hob with an AR hotspot? Why or Why Not?

Not really, no. The Astral Shallow acts on purely psychic senses, and doesn't effect any of the signals going through the area-it might be a bit confusing for people in the Astral Shallow, but that's about it.


Kalvan
QUOTE (Ancient History)

I thought this was familiar.

QUOTE
Is there any way in 4th Edition to mechanically simulate an exorcism on the poor subject, one done without his knowlege so his "handlers" won't get wise and simply kill him before it's possibly too late.


In the present, exorcisms are extremely rare and primarily used for what psychological relief they may bring to the 'possessed.' An exorcism in Sixth World terms generally means banishing a spirit, especially one that is possessing a person. The ritual for each is fairly identical, the only distinctions being that a magician can generally tell when a person is being possessed by a magical spirit, and in the latter case the priest must also be a magician if the ritual is to be at all effective (outside of the priest attempting to bargain with the spirit, such as offering his/her own body in exchange for letting the victim go).

That said, it is possible to simulate a possession to some degree. With the proper chemicals, conditioning, and/or implants the subject (let's call him Cardinal Svatik) could be induced by a different personality to act against his will (embedded remote-activated or triggered personfix program), experience black outs and/or short term amnesia (laés or other drugs), caused to speak in tongues, and other symptoms.


That's not exactly the question I asked. I wasn't wanting the folks at Aztech to make the good cardinal experience the outward signs of bodily posession without the sulfurous aftertaste, I was wanting him to act subtly in ways to undermine church authority and morale, without being aware of it, and for a Sylvesterine to try to use magic to counteract this control, even if he (initially) guesses wrong about its source.
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That said, any magician trying to banish the 'spirit' possessing Cardinal Svatik will notice the complete lack of resistance during the banishing ritual, which means the game is up. A ritual conducted purely for psychological benefit would be much more 'successfully' as Cardinal Svatik would go through the charade of being 'healed.'


By mechanically, I meant the mechanics of the rules.
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2. (Related to the first) Is there any 4th Edition mechanic to simulate the struggle between a Shedit/Incect Spirit/Petro Loa and an AI for the control of the body and memories of an Otaku/Technomancer lost in the Matrix and unable to simply Jack Out or otherwise return to his Meat Body? One where said Otaku/Technomancer has returned and doesn't wan't either to skinride him?

At the moment, there is no indication that a hacker or agent could 'ride' a technomancer in this fashion. However, a technomancer could still resist being possessed/inhabited by a spirit using the rules in Street Magic.

Considering all the antics Deus and Megara used on their Otaku, and considering that Technomancers (as they are now written up) are if anything in even more constant contact with the Matrix, wouldn't you say that a thing is at least possible, if not likely?

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3. Can an Astral Shallow play hob with an AR hotspot? Why or Why Not?

Not really, no. The Astral Shallow acts on purely psychic senses, and doesn't effect any of the signals going through the area-it might be a bit confusing for people in the Astral Shallow, but that's about it.


But part of an Astral Shallow is warped probabillities. Shouldn't there be (slightly) warped iconography, ghost signals, or the like? Physical and emotional pollution spills into the Astral. Shouldn't it work both ways?
Ancient History
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That's not exactly the question I asked. I wasn't wanting the folks at Aztech to make the good cardinal experience the outward signs of bodily posession without the sulfurous aftertaste, I was wanting him to act subtly in ways to undermine church authority and morale, without being aware of it, and for a Sylvesterine to try to use magic to counteract this control, even if he (initially) guesses wrong about its source.

Not really, no. You could possibly get the Cardinal to submit to a geas (if the Cardinal is a magician), but even quickened control spells or possessing the Cardinal with a spirit summoned by the Sylvestrine would really only be stop-gap measures.

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By mechanically, I meant the mechanics of the rules.

Assensing test to read the aura, possibly a Perception test during the attempted exorcism to figure out that something is wrong (i.e. absence of a possessing spirit).

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Considering all the antics Deus and Megara used on their Otaku, and considering that Technomancers (as they are now written up) are if anything in even more constant contact with the Matrix, wouldn't you say that a thing is at least possible, if not likely?

I cannot really comment at this time on what is possible or likely; but I will note that neither Deus or Megeara actually 'possessed' an otaku or one of the Banded in the same manner as a spirit possesses a host. Deus had his Banded outfitted with implants specifically so that he could see and hear through them, even speak through them, but he was not in them, so to speak. Deus treated them as little more than drones on a distributed network.

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But part of an Astral Shallow is warped probabillities. Shouldn't there be (slightly) warped iconography, ghost signals, or the like? Physical and emotional pollution spills into the Astral. Shouldn't it work both ways?

No idea where you got the idea that an astral shallow warps probability. From a strictly physical standpoint, an astral shallow has zero impact-there is a possible exchange of information at certain higher levels, but not sufficient to effect a physical change. If you take a regular photograph of an astral shallow, you will not capture auras or any astral information. So no ghost signals or warped AR icons.
TheRedRightHand
QUOTE
Physical and emotional pollution spills into the Astral. Shouldn't it work both ways?


No. Physical and emotional pollution effects mana, because it is in the nature of mana to be altered by such things, it is a natural phenomena (background counts, etc...)

But technology is not natural and is not effected by emotion, etc... Getting angry at your computer doesn't make it go faster and you can't will your computer to download porn. You have to do it yourself. Emotional pollution or astral shallows wouldn't have any effect of technical systems or programs since technical systems can not even detect such events, let alone respond to them.

That is not to say an active spell with elemental (or an astral shallow with elemental) effects of electricity effects couldn't screw up a computer, but it wouldn't influence them, which seems to be what you are asking.

Of course, who knows what the changes ae going to be when Emergence comes out. Maybe then we will see things like will/emotion and magic having some effect on the surrounding AR.

But also, of course, it is a fantasy game so if you want it to happen in your campaign go for it. Same with Hijacking bodies. It might not be part of the rules, but there is nothing to prevent you from having it happen in your game just make up some new technology/reason for it.
Wakshaani
You could, I guess, create a Personafix Chip, uploadit into his headware memory (He has headware, right?) and, through his Skillwires (He has Skillwires, right?) force actions on him.

In 2070, tho, most minor surgery, or cybernetic headare, is Nano-created and, similarly, nano-uninstalled. If he had, say, a small processors in his brain, they wouldn't have to do surgery on him, just squirt in some nanobots, which would disassmble teh peice and stitch his brain back together.

2070 tech is fun.
Slithery D
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even quickened control spells or possessing the Cardinal with a spirit summoned by the Sylvestrine would really only be stop-gap measures.


Quickening a control manipulation under SR4 rules would have to be the biggest waste of karma ever. They still break when the target rolls enough successes on his repeated willpower tests.
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