Full Version: Adept Improved Reflexes past +3
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Level Total Dice Total Cost Incremental Cost 1 2D6 2 2 2 3D6 3 1 3 4D6 5 2 4 5D6 8 3 5 6D6 13 5 6 7D6 21 8 7 8D6 34 13 8 9D6 55 21 9 10D6 89 34 10 11D6 144 89 ... ... ... ... |
So theoretically, for 21 Power Points (and thus 420 Karma), one could have +7D6 Initiative. Does this sound reasonable?
I think an adept who has initiated 15 times can have whatever he wants.
At least _I'm_ not gonna tell him no.
At least _I'm_ not gonna tell him no.
Eek? Urk?
I think I see devil rats sniffing after all that cheese...
-Siege
I think I see devil rats sniffing after all that cheese...
-Siege
Heh. That brings up an interesting point.
it states in SR3 that an Adept cannot have more Power Points worth of powers than his Magic Attribute. SR3 also states that an Adept may purchase one additional Power Point for 20 Karma. Which overrides which, and what does that mean for an Adept that loses a point of Magic - does he lose 1 point worth of Power, or immediately lose ALL points purchased for 20 Karma each, which are over his Magic rating?
it states in SR3 that an Adept cannot have more Power Points worth of powers than his Magic Attribute. SR3 also states that an Adept may purchase one additional Power Point for 20 Karma. Which overrides which, and what does that mean for an Adept that loses a point of Magic - does he lose 1 point worth of Power, or immediately lose ALL points purchased for 20 Karma each, which are over his Magic rating?
It should be mentioned that the rule which allows Adepts to purchase additional Power Points for 20 Karma each is NOT intended to be used in games which permit initiation. Remember, in the BBB there are no rules for initiating; those rules were first printed (in 3rd Edition format) in MiTS.
If your Adept can initiate, than s/he can NOT purchase Power Points at a flat rate of 20 Karma each. That may be where ialdabaoth's confusion arises.
If your Adept can initiate, than s/he can NOT purchase Power Points at a flat rate of 20 Karma each. That may be where ialdabaoth's confusion arises.
Sorry ialdabaoth, I think that's a really bad idea. Everything was capped at a certain level for a certain reason. Despite the strange belief some people have that you can stack drugs with these cyber/magic improvements, the body can only move so fast before it burns in flames from friction or destroys your onwn hearing from sonic speed movements. 6+3d6 is fast enough for the power.
PS. Personal opinion of course.
Sphynx
PS. Personal opinion of course.
Sphynx
Bummer. I always preferred using both options - buying Power Points lets you get more powers cheaply, while Initiating gives you more powers and lets you increase the maximum level for each of your Powers. I.e., if you have a Magic Attribute of 6, you can use Power Points to buy any Adept power you want up to level 6, after which you'd need to Initiate and get your Magic Attribute up to 7 to get any individual Power up to 7 (but could then purchase more Power Points to get ALL your powers up to level 7).
I think that you might raise the cap to the max that you can reach with cyberware, but past lv 3, and perhaps past lv 2, I think you get more total effectiveness using your magic pts for something else.
I would much rather face an adept with lev 4 IR, then one with lev 3 IR and 6(!) additional dice in his attack of choice.
I would much rather face an adept with lev 4 IR, then one with lev 3 IR and 6(!) additional dice in his attack of choice.
| QUOTE (ialdabaoth) |
| it states in SR3 that an Adept cannot have more Power Points worth of powers than his Magic Attribute. SR3 also states that an Adept may purchase one additional Power Point for 20 Karma. Which overrides which, and what does that mean for an Adept that loses a point of Magic - does he lose 1 point worth of Power, or immediately lose ALL points purchased for 20 Karma each, which are over his Magic rating? |
Lets see if i can shed some light on this.
The rulebook says that 1 Magic Point = 1 Power Point.
If you buy one Power Point for 20 Karma (now with MitS anyone would initiate first), you have to assign this Power Point to a Magic Point (sly players start with the first Magic Point, because its the last you would loose).
It would look like this:
First Magic Point = One Power Point
Second MP = One Power Point
...
and so on.
If you loose one Magic Point (the sixth) you would loose your Power Point assigned to that Magic Point (if you where insane enough to buy that much *g*).
I hope you understood that.
Its hard too explain rules in english.
I tend to agree - high Initiative is nasty, but not quite as nasty as a really high skill pool.
| QUOTE (ialdabaoth) |
| So theoretically, for 21 Power Points (and thus 420 Karma), one could have +7D6 Initiative. Does this sound reasonable? |
I noticed mention of an Adept book - what happened to that?
| QUOTE (ialdabaoth @ Oct 16 2003, 07:51 PM) |
| I noticed mention of an Adept book - what happened to that? |
It's called "Magic in the Shadows"
Ah. Well that's a bit of a letdown.
There's also an unofficial "net.adept" book floating around somewhere if that piques your interest.
-Siege
-Siege
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Despite the strange belief some people have that you can stack drugs with these cyber/magic improvements, |
I have a friend (who plays and GMs) that not only insists that drugs can stack with cyberware and magic, but that they can also stack with other drugs AND the same drug.
Two doses of Jazz and Kamikaze: he insists that it add +4d6.
Le sigh
Near as I can tell, the only init bonuses that stack are Synaptic Accelerator and Boosted Reflexes.
I'd personally say that drugs stack. They screw you over enough for it.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Velocity) |
| If your Adept can initiate, than s/he can NOT purchase Power Points at a flat rate of 20 Karma each. That may be where ialdabaoth's confusion arises. |
Really? I thought it was more of a suggestion? To the FAQ!
I don't think that being able to go above +3d6 init is too bad, although I would make a slightly steeper progression.
Initiative bonus Total Cost
+4d6 9
+5d6 17
+6d6 33
basicly I double the difference going up each level, so from 1 to 2 is a difference of one, 2 to 3 is a difference of 2, 3 to 4 is a difference of 4, 4 to 5 is a difference of 8, etc. It really becomes virtually impossible to go beyond +4d6 in a what I would consider a reasonable game setting, which is the way I like it. +4d6 is the max you can get from move by wire, and I generally feel that an adept who devotes everything to just reflexes and initiates 4 times, should probably be able to do that, cause they can't do anything else.
Initiative bonus Total Cost
+4d6 9
+5d6 17
+6d6 33
basicly I double the difference going up each level, so from 1 to 2 is a difference of one, 2 to 3 is a difference of 2, 3 to 4 is a difference of 4, 4 to 5 is a difference of 8, etc. It really becomes virtually impossible to go beyond +4d6 in a what I would consider a reasonable game setting, which is the way I like it. +4d6 is the max you can get from move by wire, and I generally feel that an adept who devotes everything to just reflexes and initiates 4 times, should probably be able to do that, cause they can't do anything else.
in the Grimroue(?) 2 it lists the inc REflex power going up to 4 at most
I went with a Fibonacci progression (2/3/5/8/13/21...) because apparently that's how Earthdawn's Adept levels work, and it fit the canonical progression thus far (2/3/5).
Why not just use Quick Strike and be done with it?
"Hi, I have Improved Reflexes 3 and Quick Strike."
Roll Initiative.
"I go first again! JOY!"
"Hi, I have Improved Reflexes 3 and Quick Strike."
Roll Initiative.
"I go first again! JOY!"
I would let drugs stack with anything. However, there is a term for trying to stack drugs like above.
It's called "overdose".
2 hits of Jazz and Kamakaze should make your heart break out of your chest and go flopping down the street like a flounder.
It's called "overdose".
2 hits of Jazz and Kamakaze should make your heart break out of your chest and go flopping down the street like a flounder.
Well, I'd never allow that stacking, but then again, I'm a bit overly biased on the whole "drug" thing in SR. This game has a large percentage of players who are teens and a game that encourages the use of drugs and shows good side effects (no matter how deadly since most druggies have a fuck-it-if-I-die attitude anyhows) was just really really really bad form for an RPG. It didn't even fit into the 'gritty' atmosphere, it was just bad.
Sphynx
Sphynx
Personally, I allow any stacking not explicitly disallowed in the rules - and then pile on the disadvantages. I believe in letting people try anything, and then letting THEM figure out why it's a bad idea.
And as for encouraging teenagers to use drugs, trust me - you don't need an RPG to do that. The government is doing a fine job all on its own.
And as for encouraging teenagers to use drugs, trust me - you don't need an RPG to do that. The government is doing a fine job all on its own.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Well, I'd never allow that stacking, but then again, I'm a bit overly biased on the whole "drug" thing in SR. This game has a large percentage of players who are teens and a game that encourages the use of drugs and shows good side effects (no matter how deadly since most druggies have a fuck-it-if-I-die attitude anyhows) was just really really really bad form for an RPG. It didn't even fit into the 'gritty' atmosphere, it was just bad. Sphynx |
And voilence and murder, organlegging, and all the other countless mis-deeds and screwed up things in Shadowrun are good things to teach the stupid teens of today.
But as far as super increasing reflexes. I think it is pretty pointless. In our games it is played if the PC's can do it so can the NPC's. So after a while everyone will have 100d6 + 500 or what ever insanly high initiative you could possibily come up with. Then what is the point of it all? Nothing has changed you will just be rolling alot more dice, move at the speed of light on foot, and still be no better off then when you started. Once you get above the average man on the street all the rest of your speed is just wasted. Being able to keep up with a bad ass street sam is fine but 10d6 is just well a waste. When I play, this just my style, I try to be faster then joe average so I can deal with him with null sweat, now the guys who are on par or better then me I use tactics and skills.
| QUOTE |
| And voilence and murder, organlegging, and all the other countless mis-deeds and screwed up things in Shadowrun are good things to teach the stupid teens of today. |
Funny though, in 8+ years of playing, I've killed 0 people (monsters/spirits are another subject), so never murderd, and definitely never participatted in organlegging. Youngest person in our 8 year group: 26.
Anyhows, my apologies for stepping so far off topic, I won't carry this conversation on further, just had to point out that game doesn't have to encourage those 2 activities (violence yes) to be a good game, and shouldn't encourage them, nor drugs, to have fun.
Sphynx
What about vaguely realistic shooting games? "Silent Scope" leaps to mind. Kids who have never spent quality time on the range can learn to be downright dangerous.
Sorry, continuing off-topic.
-Siege
Sorry, continuing off-topic.
-Siege
Say it with me kids... sar-ca-sm... now, as far as further than +3d6, think of it as a balance thing, can a sammy keep up to it? Unless they've got an assload of cred, then they can't even get to 4D6 (which is possible with a Milspec MbW, but you need Delta unless you're making a cyberzombie), so you're just throwing off the balance. I'm partial to Adepts quite a bit, but that doesn't mean I want to piss on other people's party... 
Well, a good sammy CAN get Boosted Reflexes/3, a Synaptic Accelerator/2, and Reaction Enhancer/6 to get a net +4D6 +8, for a semi-reasonable price. Also, look at the Karma costs involved in getting to +4D6 - you're talking someone who's at LEAST Initiated twice, assuming that's ALL they did.
Yeah, but a Sammie can get +6 Reaction Enhancers, +6 Reaction and +3D6 Wired Reflexes OR +2 Reaction +4D6 Boosted+Synaptic.
Adepts can only get the +6 +3D6 meaning that even at their best they'd be 6 reaction lower than a Sammie can be.
I think however, it's a better reason to offer an Incresaed Reaction to your list of Adept Powers, not a higher Initiative System. Then, because it's an attribute, it can exceed 6 making Adepts faster in the long run if they spend that many PP's towards it. I think increasing Improved Attribute to cover Reaction (at 0.5 PP per level) is well within the parameters of balance.
Sphynx
Adepts can only get the +6 +3D6 meaning that even at their best they'd be 6 reaction lower than a Sammie can be.
I think however, it's a better reason to offer an Incresaed Reaction to your list of Adept Powers, not a higher Initiative System. Then, because it's an attribute, it can exceed 6 making Adepts faster in the long run if they spend that many PP's towards it. I think increasing Improved Attribute to cover Reaction (at 0.5 PP per level) is well within the parameters of balance.
Sphynx
*nods* I'd agree with that. Although, in the end, that's going to be a HUGE advantage for the Adept - they're getting a *guaranteed* +6 every 3 Power points, as opposed to just +1D6.
I like the idea of a Grade 138 Adept who can do nothing but roll from 37 to 97 on initiative. He can surrender 10 times in 3 seconds!!
And then comes along the regular Adept with Quick Strike, who still beats him anyway.
--K
And then comes along the regular Adept with Quick Strike, who still beats him anyway.
--K
Heh. And you could name him Pierre.
Do you realize how impossible/improbable it is to ever even get to any of those levels? My group is from 125 to 250 in karma and the highest initiation is 4 I think. To get to a speed equal to a cybered up Sammie You'd need at LEAST 6 levels of initiation. That'd get you the +6 Reaction, +12 Reaction/+3D6, +2 Quickness for +19+3d6 where as a Sammie can get +15+4D6 easily. I'd say that the fact Adepts have unlimited potential, but take longer to achieve it is a good balance.
Sphynx
Sphynx
This is my attitude as well, which is why I wanted to make the D6's open-ended. I'd actually rather do both - allow an open-ended Increase Reflexes and an open-ended Increase Reaction - and remove the +2 Reaction increase per Increase Reflexes level. So each level of Increase Reflexes *JUST* adds dice, and each level of Increase Reaction *JUST* adds bonuses, but you can climb as high as you want.
If you do that, you need to really reduce the cost of the Reflexes to 1, 2, and 3 (subtract .5 per Reaction increase without making level 2 the same price as level 1) to keep it fair. Even then, realize that the highest they can get their reaction is their Magic rating meaning they still wouldn't get the reaction levels of a sammie until much later, but would surpass them quickly on Reflexes if they wanted.
Regardless, I think allowing Reflexes to go over 4 is going to prove to be unbalanced.
Sphynx
Regardless, I think allowing Reflexes to go over 4 is going to prove to be unbalanced.
Sphynx
Regarding drug use, if you make a character centered around drug use, one that doesn't plan to stop it, you may as well get six extra points for chargen by taking Borrowed Time, because IIRC the maximum lifespan for any druguser in Shadowrun is 10 months. I'll have to double-check on that when I get the chance, but it's something absurdly low.
As for unlimited potential, screw Awakened characters. The one archetype with the closest to infinite potential is, IMO, the Rigger. There's no limit to the rating of an RCD, the Avail for said RCD is static at 4, your only restriction is cash.
~J
As for unlimited potential, screw Awakened characters. The one archetype with the closest to infinite potential is, IMO, the Rigger. There's no limit to the rating of an RCD, the Avail for said RCD is static at 4, your only restriction is cash.
~J
With the costs being what they are, I don't think Reflexes over +4 will be unbalanced. Past +4, in fact, you're better off point-for-point upping your Reaction than your Reflexes. +3 costs 5 points; for the additional 3 points you have to spend to get the fourth +1D6, you could get a guaranteed +6. Past that level it only gets worse. The only reason you'd get these higher dice is to 'hold yourself over' after maxing out your Reaction. So your most cost-effective Power expenditure would look like:
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Power Power Total Initiative Bonus Power Power Initiative Bonus Improved Reflexes: 1 2 1D6 + 0 Improved Reflexes: 2 3 2D6 + 0 Improved Reflexes: 3 5 3D6 + 0 Improved Reflexes: 4 8 4D6 + 0 Improved Reaction: 2 9 4D6 + 2 Improved Reaction: 4 10 4D6 + 4 Improved Reaction: 6 11 4D6 + 6 Improved Reaction: 8 12 4D6 + 8 Improved Reaction: 10 13 4D6 + 10 Improved Reaction: 12 14 4D6 + 12 Improved Reaction: 14 15 4D6 + 14 Improved Reaction: 16 16 4D6 + 16 |
This is the best possible Initiative bonus at each Power level - a 10th Grade Initiate simply can't get a better statistical Initiative roll than 4D6 + 16 (remember, statistically 4D6 + 16 is better than 5D6 +
. Past Improved Reflexes: 4, it is no longer worthwhile to get Improved Reflexes at all - 5 Power for the next +1D6 is less effective than 5 Power for +5 Quickness and +5 Reaction, which will provide a statistically higher bonus (+3.5 on average for +1D6 N, vs +7.5 on average for +5Q/+5R). So numerically, anything past Increased Reflexes 4 is a waste of Power - you're far better using Increased Reaction anyways. So it isn't numerically accurate to call this form of +5 Reflexes "unbalanced", if +1 Reaction (or even just the canonical +1 Quickness) isn't.
Addendum: Even if each level of Improved Reflexes is +1D6N and +2R, that's still an average +5.5, as opposed to +7.5 for +5Q/+5R.
An adept power I came up with a while back for a SOTA proposal allowed addepts to try to boost thier intiative in between combat phases. So if they didn;t act first in the fist pass, they had a chance to act first in the next pass. I forget the exact mechanics, they don't matter much for this puspose- point is, there was no max levle besides magic rating (iirc, the total added to inaitve in a turn was limited by magic). Combined with "quickstrike", high levles of something like that could be really nasty.
Come to think, doesn;t the "tactics" skill allow something similar?
Come to think, doesn;t the "tactics" skill allow something similar?
| QUOTE |
| Despite the strange belief some people have that you can stack drugs with these cyber/magic improvements, the body can only move so fast before it burns in flames from friction or destroys your onwn hearing from sonic speed movements. |
Well, seeing as higher Reaction doesn't grant faster movement, those things shouldn't be a problem.
It does. You may not be moving more meters/turn, but unless one of your actions doesn't actually involve movement, you have increased movement of one variety or another.
~J
~J
It doesn't increase the maximum speed at which your limbs can move. If it did, then you would see the movement increase. Instead, my best explanation is that it gives you better conscious control over your limbs, allowing you to make the most of those movements.
I'm perfectly capable of making my arm move so fast that it's barely blur, but I'm unable to make it do anything useful while it's whipping around like that. Modified reflexes would allow me increased control of that movement, allowing for some things to actually get done, rather than just flailing.
I'm perfectly capable of making my arm move so fast that it's barely blur, but I'm unable to make it do anything useful while it's whipping around like that. Modified reflexes would allow me increased control of that movement, allowing for some things to actually get done, rather than just flailing.
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