My group has just recently started playing SR4 ('ported our characters over from SR3) and the question came up regarding getting new (or upgrading current) cyber- and bio-ware. Previous rules sets went into some detail about this - costs, damage received from surgery, and recovery times (don't recall if there were any rules regarding rejection or not). Sr4 seems rather vague about these details, plus IIRC, lifestyle no longer affects recovery times and stuff?

I was wondering if there has been any clarification in these regards as I hope I don't have to wait until certain sourcebooks come out to find out.

We did have another concern about lifestyles in that the rules state only one may be purchased, but decided to go by previous rules as my character maintains several (high plus 3 middle lifestyles -what can I say, my character has some wealth ) and others may want to go that route.

sorry it's what you don't want to hear: probably gotta wait until Augmentation comes out.

I normally just inflict a wound on the character loosely based off the type of implant, the essense cost, and the skill of the surgeon. Runners aren't required to stick around for any bed rest. Most cyber-clinics and street docs send the implantee out back onto the street the same day of surgery. (Anti-infection and other post-surgical drugs are far superior than today) They can do their healing back home.

Both me and my group decided the "Damage and Healing" and "Surgery" sections of SR3's "Man and Machine:Cyberware" was punitive and over-complicated. Those sections were ignored as we felt they added nothing positive to the game. Unless "Augmentation" does a far better job I see little reason to break from the way I'm doing it now.

I can see that method for the more common and less invasive implants, but it would stand to reason that unless nanotech or some such method is used, implants such as wired reflexes, bone-lacing, dermo-armor, some headware (that which involves the brain), and muscle-replacement should involve a lot more time in surgery and recovery as these are quite invasive and complicated surgeries. I would also think there should be some chance of rejection, but I guess allergies could handle that.

If you want to role play out the surgery and time needed to heal from surgery use one of the older books as a guild line to the time it would take. They were a good benchmark.

Generally, I'd say that the surgery rules (and times) from Man & Machine would still fit, for the most part. May need to make a couple tweaks.

But yeah, I wouldn;t expect to see any hard SR4 rules for that till AUgmentation.

Bull

\signed

I don't remember how the old rules worked exactly, but I'd probably have each implant do a base amount of damage, which would be lowered by 1 for each hit on a Logic + Medicine (Implant Surgery) roll. A glitch would inflict more damage, lowered by the hits. I don't know if I'd inflict base damage again or if I'd go for half-again, or some other system. Here's an example.

Runner A is getting implant B. It's base implant damage is 8 (a fairly invasive surgery, one that people can die from if performed by an incompetant surgeon or in substandard conditions). The GM first makes an extended Logic + Medicine test to see how long it takes (for ease, the threshold can be the same as the damage, with an interval based on how complicated it is- like an hour for this one). He decides to simply buy hits in order to ensure a safe operation. 4 hours later, the surgery is complete.

Then, closing up, the GM makes a final roll to see how much bleeding and trauma took place, getting 3 hits this time (for drama, he isn't buying hits). This leaves the patient with a 5-point wound to heal. In the new rules, he'll heal this in 1-2 days. In my houserules, it'll heal in take 8 days.

Wost case scenario, the doc glitches on his closing roll, getting 1 hit. This would inflict more damage, we'll say half-again, or 12-hits, or 11 boxes. This puts the patient into overflow, which the doc must now save him from.

A critical glitch could inflict twice base damage. This procedure would kill nearly all patients. I would probably allow the PC to spend edge to cancel glitches or burn edge to survive.

That's off the top of my head. I'm sure it would require refinement.

Dread Polack

My ruling would be even simpler. I'd just say that the patient gets twice the Essence cost (rounded up) in boxes of physical damage, and then let them heal normally. It's not perfect, but it'll do.

See, I think that the less important something is to the plot or dramatic tension or what have you, the less time should be spent on it. Combat is dramatic; let it take ten minutes a round. Buying equipment isn't dramatic, so a certain amount of hand-waving and abstraction is fine.

Agreed there. I don;t think I've ever bothered with damage from cyber implantation, or even any of the rules for it.

However, he did ask specifically for rules, so... I gave him some

I usually figure the implantation costs, etc, are rolled into the cost of the item. So many things are done with nanosurgery and gene therapy these days (bone density augmentation, anyone?) that it doesn't make a lot of sense to charge through the nose for this.

If a character gets an implant during a short downtime, I eyeball their lifestyle and a couple of other things, and assign them some damage based on what they got done. It's a really loose application of GM fiat, but it adds a little flavor.

I don't think the groups I'm in would be looking for something overly complicated. I do realize some groups love "crunchiness (lotsa detail)," while others prefer to ignore such things, I was thinking more along the lines of quick and dirty for those who fall somewhere between.

Perhaps something that gives base surgical times, target numbers, recovery times, or whatever; make a few rolls to see if surgeon does a decent job of it (with glitches maybe adding extra recovery time, or possibly even screwing up either the 'ware or patient/victim due to critical glitch; critical successes maybe lowering recovery time or essence cost ), the patient rolling to avoid death (due to doc's critical failure) or quicker recovery with lifestyle as modifier.

In either case, it just seems that some mods should take a bit longer to implant than the common mods that take maybe an hour or two, or perhaps an afternoon.

Just my 2 cents (or is it nuyen now?)...

Untill SR4 has a rule that says otherwise I'd presume that surgery does not cause a wound in the sense that a person who rolls well can take an assualt canon round through in the face without recieving a wound. Sure, there is damage, but it doesn't cause any penalties.

As for time, I'd say it depends on how common the item in question is. A datajack or implanted comlink can be installed in 15 minutes by a high school dropout who took a five-hour certification course at the YMCA. Dermal sheathing would be significantly more difficult to install.