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zeb.hillard
As I am finishing up character generation for the game I am going to run, one of my players has come forward with an interesting take on a concept. She knows that the other players are relying on her to be the 'big guns' of the group, as she made a vocal point about wanting to do so when I said I was going to start the game.

However, after going over her sheet and all the things that she wants to purchase, it's a really odd sort of take on things. No Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Boosters, no Enhanced Articulation or Reflex Recorders. However, she does have Olfactory Boosters (II), Cybereyes and Ears (With Balance Augmentation, Audio Enhancement, Sound Filtering II, Low Light/Thermographics, and a Smartlink), an Internal COmmlink, and a Datajack.

Bone Density, Muscle Augmentation and Toner (All at II) round out the attribute bonuses, along with Orthoskin II to help the armor. High Firearms skill with Aptitude to allow it to go even higher paired with a decent Stealth Skill group finish things off. Of course, she has a good amount of low-level other abilities, but the main thing is that nothing in the build screams to me STREET SAM KILLER.

In my opinion she'll do very well in assassination style work, but in a flat-out firefight I think she'll be lacking. Granted, always being able to track your enemies is a bonus, and with her high dice pool in pistols she could split dice pools and still shoot better than most (Agility 5, Pistols 6, Specialization, Smartlink), but I just feel that she might be a slight bit underpowered.

Is this just my hopes that my runner team doesn't die right off and I want them to enjoy the game (Which is why I'm not pressuring her to play a Physical Adept instead), or do I have a somewhat legitimate concern?
booklord
It seems tro me that this character wants to limit herself to bioware over cybernetics. Works out well for her as all her cyberware appears to be of the legal variety. The trouble being that she probably ran out of money fast.

My best guess is she's holding out for better Synaptic Boosters then she could afford during chargen.
DireRadiant
I hear it rains a lot in Seattle.

As you've noted, under conditions where environmental modifiers are applied this character will do well. So do you consistently apply conditional modifiers?

In normal situation there may be not much difference, but if you have a scene where it's rainy, smoky, muddy, slippery , very noisy and wet and no one else can shoot straight and this character ignores all those modifiers and starts taking mooks down, what will everyone else's impression be then?
Taki
No Sammy with increased reflexes.
Yes she can do assassination work, but if other people rely on her to be the back up she very needs to have augmented reflexes.
For one good reason :
having two IP multiply both your offensive capabilities AND your defensive capabilities by two.

I mean, surely she can do a good character (even if not really powerfull) without augmented reflexes, but she won't be the "big gun" that way.
zeb.hillard
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
I hear it rains a lot in Seattle.

Almost continually, and when it does, it's usually of the acidic variety. Not to mention the constant ash and smoke from Mount St. Helens that is still chugging away. I plan on being able to throw conditional modifiers to my players on any visual based challenge outside of short range, and with the movement penalties, she will indeed shine when it comes to getting around and standing tall.

She may be holding out for the Bioware version, but I'm not certain. It's the sensible thing to hold out for, considering that she's eating small solid chunks out of her essense with the combination of Cyber and Bioware, but it's not quite as bad as if she stuck with one or the other.

I suppose it's just an oldschool holdout that the "Big-Gun" needs to take all the IP that they can. I'm hoping things will go smoothly without them, or with minimal access (As one of the other players is a Face with Alpha-Wired Reflexes I, and the second is a Technomancer/Street-Doc with very minimal combat abilities).
stevebugge
QUOTE (zeb.hillard)
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 4 2006, 09:40 AM)
I hear it rains a lot in Seattle.

Almost continually, and when it does, it's usually of the acidic variety. Not to mention the constant ash and smoke from Mount St. Helens that is still chugging away. I plan on being able to throw conditional modifiers to my players on any visual based challenge outside of short range, and with the movement penalties, she will indeed shine when it comes to getting around and standing tall.

She may be holding out for the Bioware version, but I'm not certain. It's the sensible thing to hold out for, considering that she's eating small solid chunks out of her essense with the combination of Cyber and Bioware, but it's not quite as bad as if she stuck with one or the other.

I suppose it's just an oldschool holdout that the "Big-Gun" needs to take all the IP that they can. I'm hoping things will go smoothly without them, or with minimal access (As one of the other players is a Face with Alpha-Wired Reflexes I, and the second is a Technomancer/Street-Doc with very minimal combat abilities).

Um, guys if you want some environmental and setting info on Seattle go ahead and send me a message, I live there. Flipside of that it is your game you can make the setting whatever you want.

As for the build, I like it because it is different. Yeah in a standing firefight she'll be at a bit of a disadvantage but between the extra Senseware and Stealth skills she should be able to engage enemies on her terms if she's careful, and at the very least is pretty unlikely to be suprised. Hope she has a high perception skill. One thing I might have done differently is taken thrown or projectile weapons (or might do that as the character progresses) because they are quiet.
Moon-Hawk
If she really, really wants bioware instead of cyber, she might want to consider using combat drugs in the meantime.

edited: for phrasing
zeb.hillard
I think she man soon be rolling for addiction resistance against whichever drug it is that gives up an extra IP. But, we'll see how it works out for the first session before leaping to THAT conclusion. nyahnyah.gif
zeb.hillard
For the curious, here she is. Any suggestions I could make to her, possibly, or comments on the build for benefits that I am missing?
-----
The Underpowered Samurai?
Human

Body: 4
Agility: 4 (6)
Reaction: 3
Strength: 4 (6)
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 3
Willpower: 3
Edge: 2

Athletics Skill Group: 1
Close Combat Skill Group 2
Computer: 1
Disguise: 1
Diving: 1
Dodge: 1
Firearms Skill Group: 3
Pistols: 6 (+2, Heavy Pistols)
Hacking: 1
Hardware: 1
Intimidaiton: 1
Locksmith: 2
Mechanic Skill Group: 1
Negotiation: 1
Perception: 1
Stealth Skill Group: 1
Infiltration: 3
Survival: 1
Tracking: 1

Biology: 2
Chemistry: 3
Security Companies: 3
Security Procedures: 4
Street Drugs: 2
Street Gangs: 3
-English: N
-Japanese: 2
-Or'Zet: 1
-Sperethiel: 1

Ambidexterity
Aptitude: Firearms
Blandness
Toughness

Incompetant
-Con
-Etiquette
-Instruction
-Leadership
SINner, Criminal

Cyber/Bioware
Cyber
Internal Commlink
Datajack
Olfactory Booster II
Ultrasound Sensor
Cybereyes II
-Low-Light
-Thermographic
-Smartlink
Cyberears II
-Balance Augmenter
-Audio Enhancement II
-Select Sound Filter II

Bio
Bone Density Augmentation II
Muscle Augmentation II
Muscle Toner II
Orthoskin II
Enhanced Articulation
Reflex Recorder, Firearms
stevebugge
Suggestion: Leave the Firearms skill group at 3, and use some of the extra points given to Pistols to Bow or Thrown Weapons. Given the generalist nature of the Character now not having a maxxed out skill shouldn't be a character breaker. The stealth group might stand some boosting, and maybe switch negotiation for ettiquette, but as both ultimately are pretty necessary maybe not.
zeb.hillard
QUOTE (stevebugge)
Suggestion: Leave the Firearms skill group at 3, and use some of the extra points given to Pistols to Bow or Thrown Weapons. Given the generalist nature of the Character now not having a maxxed out skill shouldn't be a character breaker. The stealth group might stand some boosting, and maybe switch negotiation for ettiquette, but as both ultimately are pretty necessary maybe not.

Well, Pistols won't be maxed out, as her maximum is at 7 because of the Aptitude Quality. Though I will make the suggestion, silenced firearms still aren't as quiet as a good old-fashioned bow or toxin laced shuriken.
stevebugge
QUOTE (zeb.hillard)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Aug 4 2006, 11:30 AM)
Suggestion:  Leave the Firearms skill group at 3, and use some of the extra points given to Pistols to Bow or Thrown Weapons.  Given the generalist nature of the Character now not having a maxxed out skill shouldn't be a character breaker.  The stealth group might stand some boosting, and maybe switch negotiation for ettiquette, but as both ultimately are pretty necessary maybe not.

Well, Pistols won't be maxed out, as her maximum is at 7 because of the Aptitude Quality. Though I will make the suggestion, silenced firearms still aren't as quiet as a good old-fashioned bow or toxin laced shuriken.

That was my thought. She will have maximum effectiveness taking guards unaware in ones and twos if possible. Quiet kills give you more undetected time, this seems like it's going towards an Urban Hunter type build
zeb.hillard
Maybe I should suggest Exotic Weapons: Monofiliment Whip...so she can sneak, garrotte, and then move on...hmm...
Lagomorph
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
If she really, really wants bioware instead of cyber, she might want to consider using combat drugs in the meantime.

edited: for phrasing

I'll second this idea. If she doesn't use it every combat, she should be okay on rolling resistance tests.
Taki
Suggestion :

Edge give you more IP, you should drop STR from 4 to 3 (doesn't change the hand damages), and have edge 3

There is to much skills at 1, you should focus on some area ...
Drop disguise (already in the stealth skill group)

you have put 30+24+2 pts in firearms you shouldn't take the group at all :
24+2 pts : pistol at 6 (heavy pistol)
12 pts longarms 3, and 12 pts automatics 6, you gain 6 build pts - take pistol at 7 smile.gif with it !

do she really need mechanic group ???
zeb.hillard
QUOTE (Taki @ Aug 4 2006, 11:44 AM)
you have put 30+24+2 pts in firearms you shouldn't take the group at all :
24+2 pts : pistol at 6 (heavy pistol)
12 pts longarms 3, and 12 pts automatics 6, you gain 6 build pts - take pistol at 7 smile.gif with it !

do she really need mechanic group ???

Isn't the Firearms points like this...
Skill Group 3 gives you a 3 in all ratings.
Then buy Pistols up to 6 (12 points, because 6 isn't her maximum rating, and doesn't cost increased points), and 2 points on the specialization? 44 points in total?

And she wants the Mechanic group for flavor...she picked up a trade skill while in the slam for a while.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (zeb.hillard)
Isn't the Firearms points like this...
Skill Group 3 gives you a 3 in all ratings.
Then buy Pistols up to 6 (12 points, because 6 isn't her maximum rating, and doesn't cost increased points), and 2 points on the specialization? 44 points in total?

If you allow both group and single skill purchse at chargen, which isn't explicitly allowed, nor is it explicitly disallowed. So that's up to you.
zeb.hillard
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
QUOTE (zeb.hillard @ Aug 4 2006, 11:48 AM)
Isn't the Firearms points like this...
Skill Group 3 gives you a 3 in all ratings.
Then buy Pistols up to 6 (12 points, because 6 isn't her maximum rating, and doesn't cost increased points), and 2 points on the specialization?  44 points in total?

If you allow both group and single skill purchse at chargen, which isn't explicitly allowed, nor is it explicitly disallowed. So that's up to you.

I have no problem with it, though I suppose I forgot to mention it.
That's also how she bumped the Infiltration outside of the Stealth group.

It's getting the players familiar with the creation rules so when their characters die, they'll be more knowledgeable the second time around. *L*
Taki
Hum yes ... not right according to RAW but much more logical ....

I really wouldn't accept all those "incompetent" flaws at my table.
Instruction and leadership as they could appear has free points,
And etiquette because such a runner is not playable to my mind :

She isn't able of anything socially, couldn't EVER be in contact with someone to begins with negociations anyway

zeb.hillard
QUOTE (Taki)
I really wouldn't accept all those "incompetent" flaws at my table.
Instruction and leadership as they could appear has free points,
And etiquette because such a runner is not playable to my mind :

She isn't able of anything socially, couldn't EVER be in contact with someone to begins with negociations anyway

I only allowed the incompetencies as an alternate to the Uncouth negative quality, which (IMO) makes for an even more socially inept runner. It still gives her a little room socially, more than Uncouth, but stunts her still since she has a reasonable Charisma.

There was another thread about it, The False Disadvantage, I believe.
Taki
You are doing a mistake since a guy with uncouth could at least have etiquette for twice the price.

A shadowrunner without etiquette can't do much things ...
zeb.hillard
QUOTE (Taki @ Aug 4 2006, 12:04 PM)
You are doing a mistake since a guy with uncouth could at least have etiquette for twice the price.

A shadowrunner without etiquette can't do much things ...

That is indeed true, but if she doesn't have any ranks in Etiquette and still has the Uncouth negative quality, she can't use it anyway because she's considered Unaware. And since she wasn't choosing to buy it at character generation, a level in Etiquette is going to cost her 13 points instead of 6...sure...but then she isn't Unaware at it, and can continue buying it at normal cost instead of it constantly being doubled.

EDIT: That's also why she isn't the Face of the grou. *Chuckles*
ornot
The lack of extra IPs shouldn't be a problem, provided you as the GM don't equip every goon they meet with IP boosts.

I look askance at any character taking more than one incompetency really, although taking it for a complete skill group makes a little more sense. IIRC incompetency prevents you from even attempting a test, while uncouth just imposes penalties and makes buying the skills more expensive, but I don't have my book with me, so I can't be certain. If it is as I remember her charisma won't be worth a damn.
Taki
She won't be able to really use a contact until then
hum ... as you wish ...

bye !
zeb.hillard
QUOTE (ornot)
The lack of extra IPs shouldn't be a problem, provided you as the GM don't equip every goon they meet with IP boosts.

I look askance at any character taking more than one incompetency really, although taking it for a complete skill group makes a little more sense. IIRC incompetency prevents you from even attempting a test, while uncouth just imposes penalties and makes buying the skills more expensive, but I don't have my book with me, so I can't be certain. If it is as I remember her charisma won't be worth a damn.

Well, Incompetency makes you unaware in the specific skill, and so that you can't purchase ranks in it unless you buy off the negative quality.

Uncouth makes you unaware in all social skills, and doubles the cost for their purchase at character generation and beyond.

So...to buy three levels of Con with Incompetent, it requires 26 points.
To purchase the same three levels with Uncouth, it requires 28 points.
(14 Initial, 4 for level 2, 6 for level three with Incompetent)
(8 initial, 8 for level 2, 12 for level three with Uncouth)
ornot
I guess it depends on whether notoriety is an issue in your game or not. Uncouth is worth only one, while incompetency for the whole group is worth four notoriety. I'd also be curious to know why she is such a social inept. That makes a difference for me, as a GM.
zeb.hillard
QUOTE (ornot)
I guess it depends on whether notoriety is an issue in your game or not. Uncouth is worth only one, while incompetency for the whole group is worth four notoriety. I'd also be curious to know why she is such a social inept. That makes a difference for me, as a GM.

I think the rough background she outlined for me would easily justify the social ineptitude, it's based on a latent sociopathy (Which is why she still had allowances for her Intimidation and Negotiation...but none of the lying/proper activity/leading people skills). The description is much more in-depth and spelled out, but I don't have it on me.
Shrike30
I'd suggest something larger than a handgun for larger-scale engagements. When the character wants to hit someone further out than 60 meters (which happens sometimes, I hope), longer range is a nice thing to have. I'm a fan of assault rifles, personally (hell, even if you're just using them on semiautomatic), but sporting rifles work, too.

That's a LOT of skills at 1. Personal beef, really.

The PC might want to look into chemical stimulants (like Jazz) for extra IPs. It's not a bad way to go...
zeb.hillard
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Aug 4 2006, 12:42 PM)
I'd suggest something larger than a handgun for larger-scale engagements.  When the character wants to hit someone further out than 60 meters (which happens sometimes, I hope), longer range is a nice thing to have.  I'm a fan of assault rifles, personally (hell, even if you're just using them on semiautomatic), but sporting rifles work, too.

That's a LOT of skills at 1.  Personal beef, really.

The PC might want to look into chemical stimulants (like Jazz) for extra IPs.  It's not a bad way to go...

She's got the usual assortment of Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Etc for long-range combat but I didn't feel like listing it all out. *L*

I'll be suggesting the stimulants to her when we talk before game, just to see if she can't get her juice early on before she can affort cultured cyber.

EDIT: As for skills at one...is it the general way to raise a small number of skills to high levels at the beginning, and then purchase additional skills after gameplay begins...or to start with a wide base, and then raise them all as play goes on? I personally perfer the second...it doesn't give as focused a character, but does allow for more 'knowledge' out of the box.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (zeb.hillard)
EDIT: As for skills at one...is it the general way to raise a small number of skills to high levels at the beginning, and then purchase additional skills after gameplay begins...or to start with a wide base, and then raise them all as play goes on? I personally perfer the second...it doesn't give as focused a character, but does allow for more 'knowledge' out of the box.

Personally, I agree with you - hyperspecialists (while a few do exist in real life) tend to set my teeth on edge.

I think that it's largely because most RPG systems tend to reward that design - it's usually cheaper to have one skill at 6 at chargen and buy another up from nothing, than it is to have two skills at 3 and bring them both up. Nevermind that IRL, almost everyone is at least moderately capable of any task, given even basic information, and specialists are relatively rare (which, come to think of it, may be one reason I think SR4's basic mechanic works better than SR3's.)
Shrike30
It's a pet peeve of mine directly linked to the stat + skill mechanic. I know people who do it both ways. However, it always seems odd to me when a character has a skill that they rely on pretty heavily be something that (according to the in-game description) they're barely familiar with.
zeb.hillard
QUOTE (Shrike30)
It's a pet peeve of mine directly linked to the stat + skill mechanic. I know people who do it both ways. However, it always seems odd to me when a character has a skill that they rely on pretty heavily be something that (according to the in-game description) they're barely familiar with.

I've had problems like this from way back when I used to run White Wolf's storyteller system games. I solved it by handing out bennies to people that had a wide base of abilities instead of dumping out all of their points to hyperspecialize in two of three things (Not even area, just specific things).
I'm thinking about doing the same with my game, and reducing point costs by 1 for initial skills that are only purchased at a level 1 rating, to broaden character capabilities and talents. Of course, I'm only giving them a level 1 skill for free once they purchase 4, though, but stilll it's something.
stevebugge
If you use the Max hits equals Skill x 2 optional rule (see pg. 69) the Skill + Attribute issue is significantly mitigated, in order to do anything remotely difficult the skills have to go up to 2 eventually. However for an out of the box character I can understand a lot of 1 rated skills. Also consider that rasing an active skill to 2 and a new active skill cost the same (4 Karma) in game planning ahead with a bunch of 1's can make sense. Same goes for groups (10 points).
zeb.hillard
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Aug 4 2006, 01:46 PM)
If you use the Max hits equals Skill x 2 optional rule (see pg. 69) the Skill + Attribute issue is significantly mitigated, in order to do anything remotely difficult the skills have to go up to 2 eventually.  However for an out of the box character I can understand a lot of 1 rated skills. 

That actually encourages people to raise their skilles to higher levels right out of the box, however...when I'm going for a more wide-spread base it's better to allow successes to surpass the Skill Rating x2.

I think I'll slowly impose Hit maximums on skill rolls as the game goes on, to simulate them growing stronger at activly practiced skills, and becoming distanced from mundane activities (Higher often used skills versus lower rarely used ones).
knasser
QUOTE (zeb.hillard)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Aug 4 2006, 01:46 PM)
If you use the Max hits equals Skill x 2 optional rule (see pg. 69) the Skill + Attribute issue is significantly mitigated, in order to do anything remotely difficult the skills have to go up to 2 eventually.  However for an out of the box character I can understand a lot of 1 rated skills. 

That actually encourages people to raise their skilles to higher levels right out of the box, however...when I'm going for a more wide-spread base it's better to allow successes to surpass the Skill Rating x2.

I think I'll slowly impose Hit maximums on skill rolls as the game goes on, to simulate them growing stronger at activly practiced skills, and becoming distanced from mundane activities (Higher often used skills versus lower rarely used ones).


Going back to the original question, I have one comment. It doesn't matter too much if she's a weak tank so long as she's the only tank. As GM you can scale the missions to their power level and the team can play in a style that suits her (softly softly 'shoot em in the backly). But if a real tank enters the team then you get major inadequacy issues. If there's a mage, watch out for quickened Increase Reflexes or same with Sustaining Focus. Could quickly put the character in the shade,

Other than that, same as everyone else is saying about the lack of social ability. That character would get hit hard in my game.
Glyph
I think with three players, and none of them that tough in combat, you simply need to make it a lower-powered game.

Wired reflexes give sammies more than the ability to have multiple actions. The boost to reaction means that they usually go first, and also helps them dodge bullets, so that they don't have to soak the damage.
Taki
Maybe the Face will finally have more firepower than your "sammy" ...
4 shots given by his wired reflexe I, even with less dices could make the difference compared to only 2 shots.
hyzmarca
Extra IPs are most useful when outnumbered, Grenade launchers are also useful when outnumbers, assuming that you don't want to rescue any hostages.

But the lower reaction is a problem when it comes to surprise tests and similar things.

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