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Ed_209a
By some rough estimates, the 6th world Scourge will happen sometime in the 4200's AD.

What do think will happen?

My feeling is that in 2 millennia, metahumanity will be spread throughout the galaxy. There will either be ways to transport mages & shamans through space, or the population of earth will be primarily mage & shaman.

I know the military technology of the 43rd century will be largely ineffective against the Horrors, but the huge population galaxy wide would mean that there would be many, many more awakened available to fight them.

However, it's also possible that the cycle of magic occurs galaxywide, so that the Scourge happens on all planets simultanously. The Horrors would, of course, care more about planets with intelligent life to torture.

What are your thoughts on this?
Cray74
QUOTE
I know the military technology of the 43rd century will be largely ineffective against the Horrors,


I disagree. In the 21st Century, the conventional military dealt with bug spirits in Chicago. Not well, but it contained them, and then was rid of them with a bioweapon of sorts. The military of SR is learning to deal with magical threats, integrating mages into its units, and even trying to incorporate...what was the RBB statement about the Stonewall's armor..."enhanced paranormal resistance" or something?

In a century (2160s), old school magical threats like Behemoths and Wyverns and bug spirits will be in deep trouble against the military, and by the 42nd century, the military will just spank any rampaging, monster-type Horrors like naughty little children. Any rampaging horrors kind enough to stand in the open for a second will get the ass whuppin' they deserve, probably from the local anti-asteroid orbital mana laser cannons, or whatever.

The subtle, infect-your-brain, subvert-society kind of intelligent horrors will do rather better, but an overwhelming, planet-scouring, hordes-o'-monsters Scourge should not occur.
Abstruse
Here's how I see it...

It's 4063...they're heeeeeere! The first Named horrors break through. Society seems unaware of their coming this time and is unprepared. However, the Horrors do some research into the history they've missed, notices that the citizens of one of most populated state in the most powerful nation on earth during the beginning of the 21st century elected a half-braindead steroid-freak rapist Nazi actor as governor, mutter to themselves "We can't top that.", then leave.

^_^

The Abstruse One
Solkari
(Possible Spoiler):

Don't forget that there is an IE, Leonardo, who is obsessed about his "Great Work". Now, it didn't really say what this was, but the way I see it, since his is technological genius, is he is trying to find a technological way to deal with the Horror. Some of the things he mentions in the novel, "Black Madonna", indicate that.

Besides, the Horror may arrive a little early, due to all the blood magic. And if you want a bit of an ED tie in, remember that the Therans messed with the natural flow of magic, we can't be sure of all its effects.
Kurukami
I thought Leonardo got killed off in one of the canon novels? By a dragon, no less? I can't recall off the top of my head just which novel that was, though...
Rev
I don't think a tech level similar to ours (which sr is) would be able to do much at all to stop the horrors. Sure a modern military is fearsome if you happen to be standing in the tiny area where it can focus its immense destructive power (ie chicago, or Iraq) but it also has an enormous soft underbelly. The horrors will pop up everywhere and run around eating people and trees and wrecking stuff. Presently we cannot come close to protecting everything so while a good fight could be put up for a while it could not be sustained for the hundereds of years a scourge would last.

But the year 4200 could be a completely different story.

I have read some sci-fi about nanotech and the like where a high technology society of some sort can exist without large infrastructure (personally I don't buy it though) because just a small blob of nanotech stuff (like the amount inside a persons body) can recreate anything the society has ever invented given some raw materials. That sort of tech might allow people to fight horrors for the surface over centuries.
Ed_209a
Regarding Horrors and conventional weapons, aren't Horrors primarily astral beings? I though they would be immune to bullets (and later beams & bolts)?
Talia Invierno
I'd heard it was a Lofwyr-directed exile to Antarctica ... but that's only what I've heard, not what I can confirm.

The major military "advances" to date have been an increased ability to deal death from a distance ... something that tends not to work so well with spirits, let alone purely astral beings. The Chicago alternative killed bug spirits at the cost of permanently damaging the ability to access astral space in that region. Neither seems particularly effective as a long-term solution - and the last scourge took 500 years.

Re larger population:

I'd gotten the impression that population growth was directly tied to mana rise, also that there were far, far more Horrors out there than ever were able to access the earth directly. If this is in fact the case, more populated planets would only create the possibility of more access points - not a more thinly spread out scourge but a more widely spread out scrouge of equivalent "density" (no earth-only bottleneck).
QUOTE
The subtle, infect-your-brain, subvert-society kind of intelligent horrors will do rather better, but an overwhelming, planet-scouring, hordes-o'-monsters Scourge should not occur.
- Cray74

I would suggest that the ability to deal with the second would be directly tied to the effectiveness of the first. Rather difficult to coordinate efforts against a physical menace when those doing the coordinating have already been subverted.
Buzzed
QUOTE (Abstruse @ Oct 17 2003, 01:50 PM)
Here's how I see it...

It's 4063...they're heeeeeere!  The first Named horrors break through.  Society seems unaware of their coming this time and is unprepared.  However, the Horrors do some research into the history they've missed, notices that the citizens of one of most populated state in the most powerful nation on earth during the beginning of the 21st century elected a half-braindead steroid-freak rapist Nazi actor as governor, mutter to themselves "We can't top that.", then leave.

^_^

The Abstruse One

A living, breathing left wing extremist. I thought those people were just myths.
Cray74
QUOTE (Buzzed)
A living, breathing left wing extremist. I thought those people were just myths.

Once I met a Canadian who desperately wanted to be American and Republican, wanted see Canada annexed by the US, and villified Democrats much like Abtruse just did to Arnie...Well, I no longer have trouble believing in any kind of political extremist anymore. wink.gif
ialdabaoth
Personally, I think the next Scourge will see metahumanity winning. I think in the next 2000 years, enough of the 'science' of magic will be figured out that we'll have mass-producable, drain-free magical tacnukes, launchable from man-portable assault cannon.
Velocity
QUOTE
Ed_209a wrote:
There will either be ways to transport mages & shamans through space, or the population of earth will be primarily mage & shaman.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was perfectly possible to transport Awakened mages through space; they'd just better keep their astral peepers SHUT. I mean, can't a fully-Awakened mage take a trip up to an orbital platform as long as s/he doesn't perceive the astral plane?

Granted, that makes it difficult to fight astral creatures, but by the year 4000 AD, don't you think orbital stations will have devised a way to create sufficient biomass to allow astral fields? Just curious.
Ed_209a
Does anyone know what technology was like when magic came back at the beginning of the 4th world?

I say to myself, "They have 2000 years, of course metahumanity will drive off Horrors." But the people of the 4th world had magic for 2 millennia also, and got schooled by the Horrors.

If the civilization of the 3rd world is as our RL evidence suggests, they had just invented the SOTA technology of agriculture.

In the 6th world, the same things that caused rapid technological advances could cause rapid magical advancement: Mass communication.

Awakened people all over the world could share theory with other mages, shamans & adepts, forming a intellectual critical mass.

It might only take a century to develop the magical expertise it took the 4th world a thousand years to gain. Perhaps even less.
Reaver
QUOTE (Ed_209a)
Does anyone know what technology was like when magic came back at the beginning of the 4th world?

I say to myself, "They have 2000 years, of course metahumanity will drive off Horrors." But the people of the 4th world had magic for 2 millennia also, and got schooled by the Horrors.

If the civilization of the 3rd world is as our RL evidence suggests, they had just invented the SOTA technology of agriculture.

In the 6th world, the same things that caused rapid technological advances could cause rapid magical advancement: Mass communication.

Awakened people all over the world could share theory with other mages, shamans & adepts, forming a intellectual critical mass.

It might only take a century to develop the magical expertise it took the 4th world a thousand years to gain. Perhaps even less.

Artificer will take all of your technological wonders and use them against you. You will all become horror marked before you even know what happened. biggrin.gif

Was that enough bad news? I think the horrors will be more than a match no matter what the level of technology humanity has. They will sweep across the world like a plauge and with as ignorant as people are when it comes to horrors in SR, most will be blind-sided when it happens. The horrors work on an isidious and decptive level that people won't be able to easily detect. When the scourge comes it ain't gonna be pretty.
Herald of Verjigorm
Do you actually think such an invasion would be ignorant of human technology? Only fools invade without sending spies first, those worthy of names are more than a match for whatever pathetic machinations you depend on.

Your greatest change is the Matrix, accomidations for that have already been made.
Kagetenshi
I don't think humanity will necessarily win, nor if they do will they have an easy time of it.
I do, however, think that they will have a chance, and a much better one at that. If nothing else, I think the mundane military will be able to get a handle on the hoardes of lesser horrors, leaving the IEs and GDs unmolested to try to take down the Named Horrors.

~J
252
Since were talking about the Scourge here.

Can anyone list all the different types of Horrors there are. I know there is a bit of a variety. So that is why I am asking.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (ialdabaoth)
...we'll have mass-producable, drain-free magical tacnukes, launchable from man-portable assault cannon...

And why do I think mankind is doomed? lick.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
There are as many types as there are types of creature on earth.

Ignoring that, you would know them in three groupings:
Named: that which earns a name is impressive, some cannot even be described in mortal words
Unnamed: these are the lesser beasts, you will fear their numbers
Constructs: built of the materials of the realm being claimed, these are the least impressive

Events occur that defy these groupings, but these are the groupings Vasdenjas taught.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Kurukami)
I thought Leonardo got killed off in one of the canon novels?  By a dragon, no less?  I can't recall off the top of my head just which novel that was, though...

End of Techbobabel I think it was. And it left it pretty open ended - yeah he took the drink but it doesn't say he died. Likewise, the follow-on adventures don't make a definate statement either.

And even with Leonardo gone, Dunkelzahn was still advocating letting the 'Younger Races' in on the big secret. So the Draco Foundation - which if you look at it, has the resources comparable to a Megacorporation combined with the knowledge/foresight of a great dragon - will happily carry on his wishes. Supposedly.

From what I remember of ED, underwater Kaers combined with True Water were meant to be really effective at keeping Horror's out. The T'skrang seemed to do okay. Which kind of dovetails nicely with Dunkie's will bequeast for independent undersea arcologies.

And whilst the future arms might be highlydeveloped, when some Horror's like Verjigorm can outright hunt or even just subvert great dragons, that's going to be a tricky thing. smile.gif
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