My understanding--from Magic in the Shadows, p. 86--is that because outer space is "virtually devoid of life," magic is impossible there. The "Gaiasphere" (earth's living aura) is what permits magic to work here and since it only extends to the edge of the atmosphere (approximately 80 km straight up), any mage who attempts to work any thaumaturgical tricks in space is in for a serious headache.
A brief mention is made of orbital space stations but concludes by stating that even aboard a major platform like the Zurich-Orbital station, "the background count is only reduced by a level or two." (p. 86)
Given that the background count in space is 10(!), this reduction is negligible. Has anyone thought about this and wondered how many people (or animals or other biomass) would be necessary to reduce the background count to a more tolerable 5 or 4? How large would a lunar research station have to be if it wanted to support, say, a magical healer? 100 people? 500? 5,000?
Full Version: Biomass Gestalt = Astral Plane?
The Moon is a Rating 8 Mana Warp. I'd suggest Filtering and a high-level initiate would be easier than the number of people needed to reduce the Warp further.
While there's nothing canon stating it, I personally wouldn't allow filtering to work because it's not that astral space is polluted, it's just that astral space mostly isn't there.
It's like trying to do cleanup work on the desert to allow it to be agriculturally productive. It's not like the soil was polluted to prevent things from growing, it's just that there was no growth potential there in the first place.
~J
It's like trying to do cleanup work on the desert to allow it to be agriculturally productive. It's not like the soil was polluted to prevent things from growing, it's just that there was no growth potential there in the first place.
~J
On the contrary: Astral Space is very much there, only warped and twisted from the lack of life and ever-present radiation, polluting the mana.
Maybe the books say differently (haven't read T:WL) but IMO kagetenshi's version is the most sound. Space should be a void, astrally as well as physically.
| QUOTE (Velocity) |
| Given that the background count in space is 10(!), this reduction is negligible. Has anyone thought about this and wondered how many people (or animals or other biomass) would be necessary to reduce the background count to a more tolerable 5 or 4? How large would a lunar research station have to be if it wanted to support, say, a magical healer? 100 people? 500? 5,000? |
Looking at the Space Stations mentioned in Target: Wastelands and making a bit of leap, it seems like the mana warp generally decreases with increasing population, something like (population order of magnitude) - 1.
For example, a space station with population 100 (10 to the 2nd power) would have a background count of 9.
One of the few large stations with a population in the mid to high hundreds (near 1000, or 10 to the 3rd power) would have a background count of 8.
The moon starts off with an 8, so a lunar facility with a population of 10,000 (10 to the 4th power) would get the mana warp down to "normal" background count levels (5).
I'd be curious to see how having a major biome in the station or moon base affects the mana warp. Does have an acre of parkland or farmland reduce the count by 1, also? Or do you need a much larger environment, like a domed crater or O'Neill Colony?
Ancient History, is radiation specifically cited as being a cause of the mana warp in space?
I wouldn't think a naturally occurring feature of an environment would warp it. Introducing radiation on Earth is an unnatural act that causes damage to the patterns of objects around it, but radiation is a normal facet of space. And outside the radiation belts, it's a very weak radiation, nothing like a toxic zone on Earth, like the SOX area.
| QUOTE (MitS p86) |
Space is virtually devoid of life, which distorts the mana field and raises the background count to mana warp levels. |
filtering magic will work just fine.
| QUOTE |
| Ancient History wrote: The Moon is a Rating 8 Mana Warp. |
Interesting; where is this cited? Why does a supposedly barren rock have a lower background count than space? Is it all that ice up there? Does water strengthen astral space?
| QUOTE |
| Cray74 wrote: Does have an acre of parkland or farmland reduce the count by 1, also? |
I've wondered about this, too--what effect would an intense bio-field have? Considering the extensive hydroponic operations required by a lunar or orbital crew, there'd be an abundance of vegetation in the facility. Would that help?
On a related note, does anyone know what level of life is required to sustain astral space? Obviously it's not human life since the astral side of deserts and the arctic/antarctic poles is just fine. Ditto for animal life; is vegetation enough? What about bacteria?
Whats Filtering, and what book is it from?
| QUOTE (BigKnockers @ Oct 18 2003, 01:32 PM) |
| Whats Filtering, and what book is it from? |
SOTA 2063, along with a few other good metamagics. Basicly, it lets you "pan for gold" amid mana static.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| The Moon is a Rating 8 Mana Warp. |
Wouldn't you HATE to be the wage-mage hired to determine that statistic?
Lofwyr "I've heard good things about your filtering research"
WM "Ulp"
Lofwyr "I have a research proposal for you"
WM "Ulp"
| QUOTE (El_Machinae) |
| Wouldn't you HATE to be the wage-mage hired to determine that statistic? Lofwyr "I've heard good things about your filtering research" WM "Ulp" Lofwyr "I have a research proposal for you" WM "Ulp" |
I believe there were rumors of mages on the moon for various reasons in Target:Wastelands. Imagine: a big ass optical telescope, with motion-, jitter-, and atmospheric waver-compensated mirrors...and a Saeder-Krupp wage mage, looking through that telescope, at The Person Who Pissed Off Lowfyr.
And you thought your mage with the optical binoculars was the ultimate magical sniper.
Wow... you actually managed to find an example in which I'd agree that optical magification would change LOS.
I congratulate you.
~J
I congratulate you.
~J
So... not to be repetitive, but where was the moon's background count cited again? SOTA 2063? Target: Wastelands? I'm really curious, 'cause I'd love to know what justification--if any--is given for the weakened mana warp up there.
| QUOTE (Velocity) |
| So... not to be repetitive, but where was the moon's background count cited again? SOTA 2063? Target: Wastelands? I'm really curious, 'cause I'd love to know what justification--if any--is given for the weakened mana warp up there. |
Ah, sorry.
Again, the answers you seek are in Target: Wastelands. Page 128:
...."All locations in space are mana warps (see p. 85, MitS). The background count for most locations in outer space is 10. Certain stations, due to their population and activity, may have a lower background count (9 or
. The moon has a background count of 8....."Some corps conduct theoretical magic research in space, since the lack of mana actually acts as a form of protection against potential backfires. A magician's Magical Background Knowledge skill would be very helpful on these types of adventures."
Or rather, half the answers you seek are there. There's no explanation for the moon's background count of 8, just that statement of fact.
Page 83 discusses Ares' rumored efforts to cast spells from the moon at Earth with the aid of optical telescopes.
Oh, and another comment about bad science in T:WL. The book keeps referring to the "dark side of the moon" when it clearly means "the far side of the moon" (such as in reference to the L2 stations). The so-called "dark side" of the moon sees 2 continuous weeks of sunlight, just like the near side.
Thanks for the intel, Cray.
I guess this means my next question is: does anyone have any theories concerning the moon's lowered background count? I mentioned its icy core earlier as a possibility because I wonder if there's any bacteria in all that frozen water.
Now I realize that today, the scientific community has pretty well rejected the idea that there's any form of life on the moon at all, but this is Shadowrun so what do you all think? And if there is a significant quantity of bacteria locked in the ice, would it be enough to engender a reduction in the background count? Can bacteria affect astral space (aside from FAB, natch)? We know that human and animal life are capable of creating sufficient biomass to generate an astral field--what about vegetation, insects and microscopic life?
Or what about a separate explanation altogether: what if the reduced background count of the moon stems from its place in humanity's mythology? What if, because we dream the moon, love the moon, have placed it in such a prominent position in our world-culture... we've actually been lowering its background count (slowly, imperceptibly) for millennia?
Sunday afternoon, grey skies outside, warm cup of tea in hand, idle brainstorming... come along for the ride
I guess this means my next question is: does anyone have any theories concerning the moon's lowered background count? I mentioned its icy core earlier as a possibility because I wonder if there's any bacteria in all that frozen water.
Now I realize that today, the scientific community has pretty well rejected the idea that there's any form of life on the moon at all, but this is Shadowrun so what do you all think? And if there is a significant quantity of bacteria locked in the ice, would it be enough to engender a reduction in the background count? Can bacteria affect astral space (aside from FAB, natch)? We know that human and animal life are capable of creating sufficient biomass to generate an astral field--what about vegetation, insects and microscopic life?
Or what about a separate explanation altogether: what if the reduced background count of the moon stems from its place in humanity's mythology? What if, because we dream the moon, love the moon, have placed it in such a prominent position in our world-culture... we've actually been lowering its background count (slowly, imperceptibly) for millennia?
Sunday afternoon, grey skies outside, warm cup of tea in hand, idle brainstorming... come along for the ride
I propose the moon has a lower background count due to:
a)It once was part of the Earth. Residual magical field?
b)As an astrological body, the moon has great signifigance in magical cycles (enchanting anyone? Loup-garou cycles?) and metahumanity's mythology.
c)The moon has the greatest concentration of manned space stations on it. There could easily be several hundred to a thousand people on the moon at any given time.
a)It once was part of the Earth. Residual magical field?
b)As an astrological body, the moon has great signifigance in magical cycles (enchanting anyone? Loup-garou cycles?) and metahumanity's mythology.
c)The moon has the greatest concentration of manned space stations on it. There could easily be several hundred to a thousand people on the moon at any given time.
| QUOTE (Velocity) |
| Thanks for the intel, Cray. I guess this means my next question is: does anyone have any theories concerning the moon's lowered background count? I mentioned its icy core earlier as a possibility because I wonder if there's any bacteria in all that frozen water. |
Luna doesn't have an icy core, it has a tiny, partially-iron core with overlaying silicates:
http://www.permanent.com/l-compos.htm
| QUOTE |
| First, the Moon is made of lighterweight material blown off of the Earth's surface, and is poor in materials from the Earth's mantle and core. We see this in the aluminum-rich lunar highland geologies. We also know by measuring the mass and density of the Moon by Apollo and other scientific instruments. Overall, the Moon is not very dense. The Moon does not have a large metal core, unlike Earth, as we know from seismic studies on the Moon, though later studies suggest it does have a small heavy, metal-rich core (if not pure metal). (In terms of percent, there's much more metal in asteroids on average than on the Moon.) The materials available from the Moon for building things in space are generally the lightweight silicate and metal oxide minerals of the lunar crust. Second, the Moon is extremely poor in volatiles of all kinds, with the exception of permanently shadowed lunar polar craters. The Apollo soil and rock samples and various other scientific studies show that the Moon is deficient not only in water but also very deficient in compounds containing carbon, potassium, sodium and chlorine. That would be expected from a planet that formed late, after the Sun had already gotten big and started shining, and the clouds of interplanetary dust had already been gobbled up by planets so that the sun shined through. The infant sun would have caused the dust rings around Earth to lose much of their volatiles before they had a chance to accrete again to form the Moon. " |
Three of the four Galilean moons of Jupiter have icey mantles, but even they don't have icey cores. Luna is EXTREMELY water-poor, to the extent it's almost a cruel joke. Terra has this wonderful, huge moon, but the moon lacks the elements that would make it into a great stepping stone for space exploration.
I'd chalk up the Moon's lowered background count to Luna's place in mythology, or just something about having ANY sort of matter in comparison to the void of space. I doubt it has life (as we know it, Jim).
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| The moon has the greatest concentration of manned space stations on it. There could easily be several hundred to a thousand people on the moon at any given time. |
Luna has a lower population than near Earth space, doesn't it?
| QUOTE |
| Ancient History wrote: The moon has the greatest concentration of manned space stations on it. There could easily be several hundred to a thousand people on the moon at any given time. |
Say what now? There are how many people living on the moon? I had no idea that the population of the moon was so high... who are they, corp employees? Who has lunar installations?
the fact that the earth has an astral form introduces the idea that other heavenly bodies might, as well. the presence of an astral form that large would help lower the background count, but not mitigate it completely.
| QUOTE (Velocity) |
Say what now? There are how many people living on the moon? I had no idea that the population of the moon was so high... who are they, corp employees? Who has lunar installations? |
My impression was "not that many," at least compared to Earth orbit.
Ares and Saeder-Krupp have facilities, of course, and Nova Tech has a base about 1/3 complete (to be completed in 2064, but the schedule is slipping).
Ares and SK both have one main facility. Ares' Artemis facility (near the Apollo 11 site) has 150 people, working on everything from medicine to geology to minor mining efforts. SK's facility is at a pole near ice deposits, and it focuses on calcium and titanium production. SK supports subordinate facilities for mining that are up to a day away from its main base, but those could be unmanned or lightly manned - SK uses robotic cargo haulers. From what it sounds like, the moon is lightly inhabited compared to Earth orbit (where there are thousands of people).
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| the fact that the earth has an astral form introduces the idea that other heavenly bodies might, as well. the presence of an astral form that large would help lower the background count, but not mitigate it completely. |
Yeah...I think that's what I was trying to say. The moon is something in a big, vast nothingness, and it will have some kind of astral presence, like an inert, modern building.
Filtering might not work, but variations of it would... unless you demand your games be 100% canon, research could put a mage into space effectively. For example, for our run to the Moon, my PC who had a group of alien Greys as contacts (You had to be there, trust me.) had them teach our mage a variation of filtering so magic/psychic ability would work in space.
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