Feel free to answer based on either SR3 or SR4 rules...the situation is somewhat similar in both. Being a troll is expensive, and they seem to be useful only as strong melee combatants, with their reach benefit, extra durability, and greater land speed (the better to close into melee with you). The thing is, SR, like most modern/future RPGs, is really a ranged combat monkey's game. Strength, especially in SR4, is largely useless. But trolls are still kinda cool, and I'd love to crank some up for a game or two. It just seems as though using Trolls for anything but axe-wielding blenders with legs is like fighting yourself. They're expensive to make BP-wise, and their attribute caps in Charisma and Logic make them ineffective as mages, hackers/deckers, riggers, or faces.
Yes, I'm aware there is a Troll combat mage archetype in SR3, but those archetypes aren't really optimized for real-world play, for the most part. I suppose with the new, less logic-centric hacking rules, you could be a decent Troll hacker, but that's a lot of points to pay for physical stats that you'll never use. Are trolls really a one-trick pony?
Full Version: Non-melee monster Trolls
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| ...but those archetypes aren't really optimized for real-world play.... |
You kinda lost me there.
SR3 in this post - I don't play SR4, and don't intend to.
Trolls aren't bad with firearms, either. Reduced Quick and Int lowers their combat pool, but high Body means they take less damage from return fire. Also, they can put just a few points in Strength and let their racial bonus raise it to human peak levels. Or they could max it out for some extra recoil comp. Also, thermal vision usually means lower TNs in poor conditions.
Also, a handful of ranged combat skills default to Strength rather than Quickness. the two big ones here are Heavy Weapons and Projectile Weapons. You could give him machine guns, or just get a 16M bow shot (possible with no augmentation).
Trolls aren't bad with firearms, either. Reduced Quick and Int lowers their combat pool, but high Body means they take less damage from return fire. Also, they can put just a few points in Strength and let their racial bonus raise it to human peak levels. Or they could max it out for some extra recoil comp. Also, thermal vision usually means lower TNs in poor conditions.
Also, a handful of ranged combat skills default to Strength rather than Quickness. the two big ones here are Heavy Weapons and Projectile Weapons. You could give him machine guns, or just get a 16M bow shot (possible with no augmentation).
| QUOTE |
| Trolls aren't bad with firearms, either. Reduced Quick and Int lowers their combat pool, but high Body means they take less damage from return fire. |
Not if they're being hit with a sufficiently strong attack, like a good, hard shot from an elf with an enormous combat pool. Rolling 15 dice to soak isn't going to do you much good when your TN is hanging around 12+. Plus, that troll hasn't got an icecube's chance in hell of tagging an elf with gunfire.
| QUOTE |
Also, a handful of ranged combat skills default to Strength rather than Quickness. the two big ones here are Heavy Weapons and Projectile Weapons. You could give him machine guns, or just get a 16M bow shot (possible with no augmentation). |
Thing is, hitting someone with a grenade isn't that hard...you can have a pretty easy time of it just targeting an area rather than a person. As for the bow...the damage will be nice, but its a complex action, so you're only getting one shot off, compared to two shots with a semi-auto pistol. IMO, there's not much a Troll can do outside of melee combat than an Ork can't do more efficiently.
Now, to play devil's advocate with myself, they've got no reductions on willpower or intuition in SR4, so you could, in theory, have a decent Troll drone rigger, and of course the Bounty Hunter example is a Troll. in SR3, I really don't see them as being effective mages...they'll be slaughtered the minute they run into a real (elf, human, dwarf) mage. That goes double for Shamans. But then, I guess that's why they call him the "Theoretical Troll", right?
| QUOTE (Dog) | ||
You kinda lost me there. |
What I meant is that in a real game, those archetypes aren't going to last long against the kind of challenges they'll be facing. "Real" characters, built by players, are much more optimized, and as a result are met with more challenging NPCs.
For SR3:
With a troll's Attribute bonuses geared towards melee combat, you are in good shape if you don't want to play a melee combattant. Why? Because you can take the lower or even minimum values for Body and Strength, and still have those stats as high as you need them. And that lets you spend more on your other Attributes.
As pure faces, deckers, or sorcerers, they are sharply curtailed compared to other metatypes. But Shadowrun is an open point build system rather than a class-based system, so you can combine any of those roles with a troll's advantages. You can be a face, decker, or sorcerer AND be good in combat - or if you're not interested in that at all, you still have that nice, high Body to soak damage with.
SR3 is skill and dice-pool based, so as a decker or sorcerer, all that you really lose is a point or two of spell pool or hacking pool. You also start with less skill points, generally. Computer skill will be pricier to get, but Sorcery will cost normally (trolls have no Willpower penalty). You will have the essential skills, though - you'll just be less well-rounded.
As a face, you will be hobbled too much to really compete with other characters (unless you are playing a Fomorian metatype). You can still get a Charisma of 4 or 5 and some decent social skills, though, so it can be one of your character's roles. I like trolls with face capabilities, myself, because they go against the stereotype. Again, it's not a class-based system, so you are better off getting a mix of abilities. You don't want to over-generalize (bad in either SR3 or SR4), but you can easily be great at one thing, and pretty good at something else.
As a sammie, trolls have a head start on the "tank" route, and their ranged skills may be more expensive at char-gen but are otherwise unaffected. Less combat pool, but with 'ware you can still have it high enough to be effective.
With a troll's penalties to Charisma and Intelligence, I would not recommend playing a full mage or a conjurer - the disadvantages in both astral combat and conjuring are pretty bad (low stats for astral combat, and higher Drain/less dice to soak with on conjuring).
For SR4:
With the lower Attribute ratings for starting characters, a troll's bonuses are HUGE. As in SR3, if you don't go for the combat route, you have a 5 in Body and Strength, and can spend the 200 points you are allowed for Attributes to boost up the other 6. And even for a non-combattant, having a high Body to soak damage (and wear more armor), and enough strenth to do things like drag along a wounded comrade... it's hardly useless, even for a hacker.
Magic-use is more curtailed, since other stats come into play for soaking Drain, and there are no aspected magicians, so conjuring and astral projection will also be areas of weakness.
Faces have more options, with things like tailored pheromes and kinesics letting a troll at least stay competitive.
I'm not as familiar with the hacking rules, but if Logic doesn't play a big factor in it, then they aren't too badly off. They might be a bit less well-rounded to start with, but not too hobbled.
For sammies and adepts, the penalty to Agility hurts, but the higher Body compensates. You can still make a troll that is decent in ranged combat, and they can be nearly as fast as any other character.
With a troll's Attribute bonuses geared towards melee combat, you are in good shape if you don't want to play a melee combattant. Why? Because you can take the lower or even minimum values for Body and Strength, and still have those stats as high as you need them. And that lets you spend more on your other Attributes.
As pure faces, deckers, or sorcerers, they are sharply curtailed compared to other metatypes. But Shadowrun is an open point build system rather than a class-based system, so you can combine any of those roles with a troll's advantages. You can be a face, decker, or sorcerer AND be good in combat - or if you're not interested in that at all, you still have that nice, high Body to soak damage with.
SR3 is skill and dice-pool based, so as a decker or sorcerer, all that you really lose is a point or two of spell pool or hacking pool. You also start with less skill points, generally. Computer skill will be pricier to get, but Sorcery will cost normally (trolls have no Willpower penalty). You will have the essential skills, though - you'll just be less well-rounded.
As a face, you will be hobbled too much to really compete with other characters (unless you are playing a Fomorian metatype). You can still get a Charisma of 4 or 5 and some decent social skills, though, so it can be one of your character's roles. I like trolls with face capabilities, myself, because they go against the stereotype. Again, it's not a class-based system, so you are better off getting a mix of abilities. You don't want to over-generalize (bad in either SR3 or SR4), but you can easily be great at one thing, and pretty good at something else.
As a sammie, trolls have a head start on the "tank" route, and their ranged skills may be more expensive at char-gen but are otherwise unaffected. Less combat pool, but with 'ware you can still have it high enough to be effective.
With a troll's penalties to Charisma and Intelligence, I would not recommend playing a full mage or a conjurer - the disadvantages in both astral combat and conjuring are pretty bad (low stats for astral combat, and higher Drain/less dice to soak with on conjuring).
For SR4:
With the lower Attribute ratings for starting characters, a troll's bonuses are HUGE. As in SR3, if you don't go for the combat route, you have a 5 in Body and Strength, and can spend the 200 points you are allowed for Attributes to boost up the other 6. And even for a non-combattant, having a high Body to soak damage (and wear more armor), and enough strenth to do things like drag along a wounded comrade... it's hardly useless, even for a hacker.
Magic-use is more curtailed, since other stats come into play for soaking Drain, and there are no aspected magicians, so conjuring and astral projection will also be areas of weakness.
Faces have more options, with things like tailored pheromes and kinesics letting a troll at least stay competitive.
I'm not as familiar with the hacking rules, but if Logic doesn't play a big factor in it, then they aren't too badly off. They might be a bit less well-rounded to start with, but not too hobbled.
For sammies and adepts, the penalty to Agility hurts, but the higher Body compensates. You can still make a troll that is decent in ranged combat, and they can be nearly as fast as any other character.
i think there is a very thin line between "optimizing" and "minmaxing".
the "problem" with the archetypes is that they are done using the priority system and it seems that their skills and stats tend to be somewhat evenly distributed. Perhaps that´s how the devs think chars should be made, who knows. I´m not saying that they aren´t maxed at their main skills, but they surely lack something.
On the other hand, if we had minmaxed munchies in the archetypes section, then even more ppl would think that munchkin chars are the only way to go, tough call.
Anyway, i think Troll Mages can be really fun to play in SR3.
the "problem" with the archetypes is that they are done using the priority system and it seems that their skills and stats tend to be somewhat evenly distributed. Perhaps that´s how the devs think chars should be made, who knows. I´m not saying that they aren´t maxed at their main skills, but they surely lack something.
On the other hand, if we had minmaxed munchies in the archetypes section, then even more ppl would think that munchkin chars are the only way to go, tough call.
Anyway, i think Troll Mages can be really fun to play in SR3.
Not at all. A Troll combat mage can kick butt in SR3 and SR4. The lowered CHA maximum simply means that they can have fewer spirits on call at one time. Without taking Exceptional Attribute, a starting troll can still bind up to 4 spirits at once. If you need more than 4 spirits of decent force you have a big problem.
The drain problem does not exist in SR3 and in SR4 it is minor. One can't max out two standard attributes at chargen. A starting troll can resist drain just as easily as any other starting character. In SR4, a Troll is much more likely to survive overcasting and overconjuring due to its high body. This is good thing.
As for ranged weapons, a troll doesn't suffer much in SR3. He only has to pay a little more karma for his quickness-linked skills. In SR4, he suffers a little, but a troll with maxed agility is going to be even with any other average non-specialist character. Also, he suffers the same penality in melee. However, heavy weapons are STR linked in SR4, meaning that the troll with a minigun is a rather viable archetype.
The hacker troll doesn't suffer much, either. He can have a logic of 5. Most hackers would opt to save BP by taking two atributes at 5 during chargen instead of maxing out logic. So, he is on par with them. Programs can be bought.
As technomancers, trolls are just as good. They can have Logic 5, Willpower 5, and Resonance 5 rather easily with some sacrifices. Since they don't have to spend BP on Body and Strength if they don't want to they can invest some BP into complex forms be just as good as (possibly better than) a starting human technnomancer.
As for faces, the SR3 troll does suffer a little but not much. The main penality is the cost for linked skills. A troll willing to take Bonus Attribute Point and Exceptional attribute can pump his CHA up to 6 at Chargen and have a maximum of 7. In SR4 a troll will be slightly less able compared to other dedicated faces but he can be just as good as any average character who occasionaly needs to use ettquitte or negoatiate. In total, he'll have one less die.
So, no, non-melee trolls aren't useless, at all. A troll pornomancer will have some trouble beating an elf pornomancer. Other than they, they're quite good.
In SR3, the worst penalities a troll suffers are to combat pool, but they aren't that bad. A well built unaugmented starting troll only looses 1 die from his maximum combat (compared to an unaugmented starting human) pool, if you use the bonus attribute point. That isn't bad at all. With mucle replacement and/or toner you can have a very fast troll.
The drain problem does not exist in SR3 and in SR4 it is minor. One can't max out two standard attributes at chargen. A starting troll can resist drain just as easily as any other starting character. In SR4, a Troll is much more likely to survive overcasting and overconjuring due to its high body. This is good thing.
As for ranged weapons, a troll doesn't suffer much in SR3. He only has to pay a little more karma for his quickness-linked skills. In SR4, he suffers a little, but a troll with maxed agility is going to be even with any other average non-specialist character. Also, he suffers the same penality in melee. However, heavy weapons are STR linked in SR4, meaning that the troll with a minigun is a rather viable archetype.
The hacker troll doesn't suffer much, either. He can have a logic of 5. Most hackers would opt to save BP by taking two atributes at 5 during chargen instead of maxing out logic. So, he is on par with them. Programs can be bought.
As technomancers, trolls are just as good. They can have Logic 5, Willpower 5, and Resonance 5 rather easily with some sacrifices. Since they don't have to spend BP on Body and Strength if they don't want to they can invest some BP into complex forms be just as good as (possibly better than) a starting human technnomancer.
As for faces, the SR3 troll does suffer a little but not much. The main penality is the cost for linked skills. A troll willing to take Bonus Attribute Point and Exceptional attribute can pump his CHA up to 6 at Chargen and have a maximum of 7. In SR4 a troll will be slightly less able compared to other dedicated faces but he can be just as good as any average character who occasionaly needs to use ettquitte or negoatiate. In total, he'll have one less die.
So, no, non-melee trolls aren't useless, at all. A troll pornomancer will have some trouble beating an elf pornomancer. Other than they, they're quite good.
In SR3, the worst penalities a troll suffers are to combat pool, but they aren't that bad. A well built unaugmented starting troll only looses 1 die from his maximum combat (compared to an unaugmented starting human) pool, if you use the bonus attribute point. That isn't bad at all. With mucle replacement and/or toner you can have a very fast troll.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 13 2006, 05:51 AM) |
| As for faces, the SR3 troll does suffer a little but not much. |
I see that you conveniently forgot to consider the fact that trolls are not the most socially accepted metatype. It´s kinda hard to be a face when half the world hates you regardless of you charisma and social skills.
Now I'm really not much of an optomiser, so bear that in mind. But I think trolls can be very acceptable in non-melee rolls. SR4 here, but I take issue with them being poor ranged combatters. 1 less agility dice. 2 if you really wanted to push them to their limits. It's not ideal, but it far from excludes you from being effective. And that extra body and dermal armour does grant a lot more staying power even in ranged combat. You can build a troll that virtually shrugs off small arms fire once he's got his body armour on. Something a human samurai would struggle to match.
As to non-combat roles... well firstly, you can still have an effective magician or hacker. Again, they have harsher upper limits, but even if your logic is 5, that's still going to be impressive when combined with a decent skill value. And even when you build a mage or hacker, you still need to give them some physical staying power. A troll starts off with that, whereas for the human they have to buy it up for expensive build points. In terms of the points for attributes, a troll is a very good deal. In fact I consider the main disadvantages to picking a troll to be fluffish (fitting in taxis, getting seated at a restraurant) rather than crunchish.
I think a troll face is also quite viable. The same argument about a human face having to buy up physical attributes to survive applies here, and again, give a troll negotiation 5, that's still very respectable even if your charisma is 4. SR4 has a different power scale to SR3-. A troll face is never going to be able to match the elven face if you take them both to the highest levels, but he can certainly hold his own below that.
And you haven't considered implants as a way to compensate for natural deficiencies. Just as the human will be getting those dermal implants or muscle replacement to match the troll, the troll can go for tailored pheremones and cerebal boosters. Heck - you want a troll hermatic magician? Cerebral Booster rating 3. Cost you just 0.6 essence and
30k. Wham - you have logic 8 for a mere 17 BP (including the extra magic point to offset the essence loss). Hell, drop it to Cerebal Booster 2 and you have essence space for a synaptic booster, too. 
Now you have a combat mage with free dermal armour and +4 to body and thermographic vision.The list goes on. Although the very upper reaches are barred to you, you can make a good troll build for almost any role. In SR4, you don't really want to be the super specialist a lot of the time. You want to be able to hold a primary and a secondary role, e.g. face that can fight, samurai that can hack. With the advantages a troll has, you can fulfill this better than most.
Try some builds. All you need is a little innovative thinking.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Not at all. A Troll combat mage can kick butt in SR3 and SR4. The lowered CHA maximum simply means that they can have fewer spirits on call at one time. Without taking Exceptional Attribute, a starting troll can still bind up to 4 spirits at once. If you need more than 4 spirits of decent force you have a big problem. The drain problem does not exist in SR3 and in SR4 it is minor. One can't max out two standard attributes at chargen. A starting troll can resist drain just as easily as any other starting character. In SR4, a Troll is much more likely to survive overcasting and overconjuring due to its high body. This is good thing. As for ranged weapons, a troll doesn't suffer much in SR3. He only has to pay a little more karma for his quickness-linked skills. In SR4, he suffers a little, but a troll with maxed agility is going to be even with any other average non-specialist character. Also, he suffers the same penality in melee. However, heavy weapons are STR linked in SR4, meaning that the troll with a minigun is a rather viable archetype. The hacker troll doesn't suffer much, either. He can have a logic of 5. Most hackers would opt to save BP by taking two atributes at 5 during chargen instead of maxing out logic. So, he is on par with them. Programs can be bought. As technomancers, trolls are just as good. They can have Logic 5, Willpower 5, and Resonance 5 rather easily with some sacrifices. Since they don't have to spend BP on Body and Strength if they don't want to they can invest some BP into complex forms be just as good as (possibly better than) a starting human technnomancer. As for faces, the SR3 troll does suffer a little but not much. The main penality is the cost for linked skills. A troll willing to take Bonus Attribute Point and Exceptional attribute can pump his CHA up to 6 at Chargen and have a maximum of 7. In SR4 a troll will be slightly less able compared to other dedicated faces but he can be just as good as any average character who occasionaly needs to use ettquitte or negoatiate. In total, he'll have one less die. So, no, non-melee trolls aren't useless, at all. A troll pornomancer will have some trouble beating an elf pornomancer. Other than they, they're quite good. In SR3, the worst penalities a troll suffers are to combat pool, but they aren't that bad. A well built unaugmented starting troll only looses 1 die from his maximum combat (compared to an unaugmented starting human) pool, if you use the bonus attribute point. That isn't bad at all. With mucle replacement and/or toner you can have a very fast troll. |
The thing is, for a troll to have a Logic of 5 as a hacker, or a Charisma of 4 for a mage, he's got to pay extra points for maxing his stat. That's just too expensive...so more likely, a Troll Mage will have a maximum of 3 bound spirits, and a logic of 4. Which can hurt.
I guess you're making a good point overall though...just seems weird to be a Troll with a body of 5. Though I guess that's more than most mages get.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| The thing is, for a troll to have a Logic of 5 as a hacker, or a Charisma of 4 for a mage, he's got to pay extra points for maxing his stat. That's just too expensive...so more likely, a Troll Mage will have a maximum of 3 bound spirits, and a logic of 4. Which can hurt. I guess you're making a good point overall though...just seems weird to be a Troll with a body of 5. Though I guess that's more than most mages get. |
If Body 5 really bothers you then say that he's a young troll, perhaps a teenager. Could make for an interesting character.
And yes, you'll pay extra for the maxed stat, but c'est la vie. You could always *gasp* wait until you have the karma to pay for it. It depends how much of a min-maxer you are. There's always the implant route that I suggested too, if you want it. Get your Logic from 4 to 7 for only 17BP.
| QUOTE (JonathanC @ Aug 13 2006, 04:13 PM) | ||||
Not if they're being hit with a sufficiently strong attack, like a good, hard shot from an elf with an enormous combat pool. Rolling 15 dice to soak isn't going to do you much good when your TN is hanging around 12+. Plus, that troll hasn't got an icecube's chance in hell of tagging an elf with gunfire.
Thing is, hitting someone with a grenade isn't that hard...you can have a pretty easy time of it just targeting an area rather than a person. As for the bow...the damage will be nice, but its a complex action, so you're only getting one shot off, compared to two shots with a semi-auto pistol. IMO, there's not much a Troll can do outside of melee combat than an Ork can't do more efficiently. Now, to play devil's advocate with myself, they've got no reductions on willpower or intuition in SR4, so you could, in theory, have a decent Troll drone rigger, and of course the Bounty Hunter example is a Troll. in SR3, I really don't see them as being effective mages...they'll be slaughtered the minute they run into a real (elf, human, dwarf) mage. That goes double for Shamans. But then, I guess that's why they call him the "Theoretical Troll", right? |
SR3:
Not quite true. A troll with Quick Draw can have a decent rate of fire and remember that the high power gets around Hardened Armor and other like abilites, since the power of the weapon is checked before burst or other abilties are factored in.
Heavy Weapons include machine guns and the high Str of trolls provide RC as well as enabling them to buy Heavy Weapons at max.
My own experience as a GM (creating NPCs) and as a player leads me to think that orcs are good at Quickness related weapons with autofire, while a troll is best for a heavy weapon. An armored troll can quickly reduce the power of the attack to manageable levels and coupled with the high power of heavy weapons and suppressive fire rules, the best bet for the elf is to be packing Mil-spec armor.
Back in the days of 2nd Ed I had a player to ran a Troll Sniper. Couldn't take anyone in melee but since he was a troll he was usually able to bluff his way out of close combat. And since he sat way back and sniped his opponent's combat pool didn't really matter much since they never pretty much never knew he was there. When 3rd ed came out we move the characters into that and he still was able to hold his own nicely.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) | ||||
What I meant is that in a real game, those archetypes aren't going to last long against the kind of challenges they'll be facing. "Real" characters, built by players, are much more optimized, and as a result are met with more challenging NPCs. |
Isn't that making some assumptions about what a "real" game entails?
Many players rarely make "optimized" characters, instead trying all kinds of quirks and combinations of qualities to make interesting characters, even at the cost of high numbers. Good GM's will tailor the challenges in their games to the capabilities of the characters, as you implied, so why be concerned about optimization?
For most weapons a troll survives impact better than a human.
We never had a problem getting into close combat
We never had a problem getting into close combat
| QUOTE (JonathanC) | ||
Not if they're being hit with a sufficiently strong attack, like a good, hard shot from an elf with an enormous combat pool. Rolling 15 dice to soak isn't going to do you much good when your TN is hanging around 12+. Plus, that troll hasn't got an icecube's chance in hell of tagging an elf with gunfire. |
I was working from experience, there. That experience being our group's troll, Goliath.
He's ony taken above a Medium wound once. And that only happened because he was hit by a train.
| QUOTE (Dog) | ||||||
Isn't that making some assumptions about what a "real" game entails? Many players rarely make "optimized" characters, instead trying all kinds of quirks and combinations of qualities to make interesting characters, even at the cost of high numbers. Good GM's will tailor the challenges in their games to the capabilities of the characters, as you implied, so why be concerned about optimization? |
I'm just saying that from personal experience, I'm usually playing with fairly optimized characters, so if I'm coming up short, it can mean rapid death. I definitely think that the changes to recoil compensation in SR4 hurt trolls a lot though.
That's cool. My players' characters probably wouldn't last in your usual games.
An issue that I don't think has been mentioned yet is the sheer size of weapons that a troll can carry into combat. Depending on which weight rules you use, aren't trolls the only folks who can hoist the biggest guns while still carrying enough armour and ammo to be effective? (I'm not much of a number cruncher, so I'm not sure on this.)
An issue that I don't think has been mentioned yet is the sheer size of weapons that a troll can carry into combat. Depending on which weight rules you use, aren't trolls the only folks who can hoist the biggest guns while still carrying enough armour and ammo to be effective? (I'm not much of a number cruncher, so I'm not sure on this.)
It definitely seems as though Trolls suffered in the move to SR4. Heavy Weapons go off of Agility now. Ouch.
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| That's cool. My players' characters probably wouldn't last in your usual games. An issue that I don't think has been mentioned yet is the sheer size of weapons that a troll can carry into combat. Depending on which weight rules you use, aren't trolls the only folks who can hoist the biggest guns while still carrying enough armour and ammo to be effective? (I'm not much of a number cruncher, so I'm not sure on this.) |
SR3: Maxed orcs could do the same. But trolls could do it and still have room for error (aka the mage that everyone geeks first). I have seen people come up with strange combinations like troll face that should not pass muster at first glance. But with certain abilities, like Kinesics(SR3), they can be surprisingly effective Intimidation based Faces.
Also, while troll faces may have some penalties, they can be good in certain subcultures.
The elf may be good at slurping brie with one of the movers and shakers from the Tir, or hobnobbing with corporate elf-philes, but the troll face is the one you send to negotiate passage through the ork underground, make a deal with the Spikes, get information from someone at the Big Rhino, etc.
The elf may be good at slurping brie with one of the movers and shakers from the Tir, or hobnobbing with corporate elf-philes, but the troll face is the one you send to negotiate passage through the ork underground, make a deal with the Spikes, get information from someone at the Big Rhino, etc.
(SR3)
trolls make very good melee combatants, and i don't think i've ever made a troll that doesn't have at least some melee skill to take advantage of that. it's certainly true that they make far better meleers than any other race. i think it'd be a waste of resources to not give trolls some melee skill. that said, i don't think it's a waste of time at all to make non-melee trolls--that is, trolls who don't specialize in melee.
trolls make okay anythings. shooters, sneakers, mages, whatever. they might not be great spellcasters, but their ability to soak up fire compensates for that. they might not be ultimate silent ninja types, but their ability to land a heavy punch helps balance that out.
basically, with a troll, you kinda always know where your area of secondary or tertiary expertise ought to be.
trolls make very good melee combatants, and i don't think i've ever made a troll that doesn't have at least some melee skill to take advantage of that. it's certainly true that they make far better meleers than any other race. i think it'd be a waste of resources to not give trolls some melee skill. that said, i don't think it's a waste of time at all to make non-melee trolls--that is, trolls who don't specialize in melee.
trolls make okay anythings. shooters, sneakers, mages, whatever. they might not be great spellcasters, but their ability to soak up fire compensates for that. they might not be ultimate silent ninja types, but their ability to land a heavy punch helps balance that out.
basically, with a troll, you kinda always know where your area of secondary or tertiary expertise ought to be.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| The elf may be good at slurping brie with one of the movers and shakers from the Tir... |
That particular talent is especially impressive when you consider that brie is a type of cheese.
But seriously, I agree with you.
I remember being at this stage in my SR development, where I thought that huge BOD scores don't help against high TNs. Back when I was in high school and playing second edition for the first time I was a little put out by how easily my Long Coat wearing troll physad was perforated by four Lone Star officers pumping him up at close range with their Ruger Thunderbolts.
However, the true way of the jedi is to take good armor so that your TNs get to be less than six. This usually means some combination of kevlar bone lacing and two layered pieces of armor. Although I hate FFBA because I think it's too powerful, legally you could take FFBA with an armor jacket and kevlar bone lacing and maybe a gyro mount harness and you're going to have substantial reductions on your soak TN.
That's talking about damage resistance. Now let's talk about troll shooting.
Basically, if a troll pumps up STR he gets substantial recoil reduction bonuses using the advanced rules in Cannon Companion. Add to that recoil reducing accessories, a gyro mount, and/or a bullshit custom assault rifle with 7 points of recoil comp, and you'll be in the position to land nearly 10 rounds into a target with each attack with little or no penalty.
So, the mister elfie with a lot of combat pool the OP mentions is himself going to have to resist a base TN of well over ten before we figure in extra damage from APDS rounds or EX EX and furthermore he's going to get, IIRC, a +3 TN penalty to his dodge test because there's ten rounds.
Don't forget that out of the box the troll gets organic thermovision which will probably help his TNs when he's opening fire on the foggy streets of Seattle and make his 10 rounds even more likely to hit.
When someone says that non melee monster trolls suck, it makes me want to whack them with a "pole arm".
However, the true way of the jedi is to take good armor so that your TNs get to be less than six. This usually means some combination of kevlar bone lacing and two layered pieces of armor. Although I hate FFBA because I think it's too powerful, legally you could take FFBA with an armor jacket and kevlar bone lacing and maybe a gyro mount harness and you're going to have substantial reductions on your soak TN.
That's talking about damage resistance. Now let's talk about troll shooting.
Basically, if a troll pumps up STR he gets substantial recoil reduction bonuses using the advanced rules in Cannon Companion. Add to that recoil reducing accessories, a gyro mount, and/or a bullshit custom assault rifle with 7 points of recoil comp, and you'll be in the position to land nearly 10 rounds into a target with each attack with little or no penalty.
So, the mister elfie with a lot of combat pool the OP mentions is himself going to have to resist a base TN of well over ten before we figure in extra damage from APDS rounds or EX EX and furthermore he's going to get, IIRC, a +3 TN penalty to his dodge test because there's ten rounds.
Don't forget that out of the box the troll gets organic thermovision which will probably help his TNs when he's opening fire on the foggy streets of Seattle and make his 10 rounds even more likely to hit.
When someone says that non melee monster trolls suck, it makes me want to whack them with a "pole arm".
| QUOTE (FanGirl) | ||
|
The brie is probably really warm and that's why it can be slurped.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| I remember being at this stage in my SR development, where I thought that huge BOD scores don't help against high TNs. Back when I was in high school and playing second edition for the first time I was a little put out by how easily my Long Coat wearing troll physad was perforated by four Lone Star officers pumping him up at close range with their Ruger Thunderbolts. However, the true way of the jedi is to take good armor so that your TNs get to be less than six. This usually means some combination of kevlar bone lacing and two layered pieces of armor. Although I hate FFBA because I think it's too powerful, legally you could take FFBA with an armor jacket and kevlar bone lacing and maybe a gyro mount harness and you're going to have substantial reductions on your soak TN. That's talking about damage resistance. Now let's talk about troll shooting. Basically, if a troll pumps up STR he gets substantial recoil reduction bonuses using the advanced rules in Cannon Companion. Add to that recoil reducing accessories, a gyro mount, and/or a bullshit custom assault rifle with 7 points of recoil comp, and you'll be in the position to land nearly 10 rounds into a target with each attack with little or no penalty. So, the mister elfie with a lot of combat pool the OP mentions is himself going to have to resist a base TN of well over ten before we figure in extra damage from APDS rounds or EX EX and furthermore he's going to get, IIRC, a +3 TN penalty to his dodge test because there's ten rounds. Don't forget that out of the box the troll gets organic thermovision which will probably help his TNs when he's opening fire on the foggy streets of Seattle and make his 10 rounds even more likely to hit. When someone says that non melee monster trolls suck, it makes me want to whack them with a "pole arm". |
All true, perhaps, in SR3. SR4 has removed strength from the recoil compensation formula though, and heavy weapons now use agility rather than strength as the linked attribute.
I'll take your word for it. I don't really plan on getting into SR4.
Higher BOD also means more bioware. Better for 3rd edition combat monsters. 5 extra body dice is nothing to scoff at, double most elf and human street sams. +1 troll dermal. I don't know if tis RAW but we rule it stacks with dermal plating + titanium bone lacing. Bioware yourself some quickness +4 and Str+4 for even more recoil comp and a highe combat pool. Top it off with Layered armor (with the +4 quickness a second layer won't be a problem) Light security armor, Helmet, and a secure ultra vest with plates underneath you won't have a target number of 12's. It will be 6, and that will only be for the full auto assualt rifle of panther cannon (witch an elf won't have anyways)
5 dice for body is way better thasn a combat pool of 1 or 2 higher, because your body dice are good against every stinking attack (not to mention toxins, disease, permanent effects from deadly wounds, and healing) where as combat pool has to be used per attack.
Trolls also make the most lethal archers with STR minimum bows. 12M resisted by impact armor? Thats damn near as good as a laser. And once again, Bioware, bioware, bioware. And damage resistance.
I would have never have thought someone would think that an elf would make a by the numbers better street sam just becasue comba pool is higher by 1 or 2 Wich is only 2 extra dice for damage resistance, for the round.
Except for you poor 4ed trolls. Bioware costs essence and no STR to recoil.
5 dice for body is way better thasn a combat pool of 1 or 2 higher, because your body dice are good against every stinking attack (not to mention toxins, disease, permanent effects from deadly wounds, and healing) where as combat pool has to be used per attack.
Trolls also make the most lethal archers with STR minimum bows. 12M resisted by impact armor? Thats damn near as good as a laser. And once again, Bioware, bioware, bioware. And damage resistance.
I would have never have thought someone would think that an elf would make a by the numbers better street sam just becasue comba pool is higher by 1 or 2 Wich is only 2 extra dice for damage resistance, for the round.
Except for you poor 4ed trolls. Bioware costs essence and no STR to recoil.
Higher Body doesn't mean more bioware in 3rd. You're limited to essence+3.
If I recall, bioware based on Body was 2nd edition. Never played before 3rd, so not sure.
If I recall, bioware based on Body was 2nd edition. Never played before 3rd, so not sure.
| QUOTE (Sahandrian) |
| Higher Body doesn't mean more bioware in 3rd. You're limited to essence+3. If I recall, bioware based on Body was 2nd edition. Never played before 3rd, so not sure. |
You are correct.
Does it? damn.
Even still
5 body dice and +1 dermal armor > 1.33 more combat pool. The benefits of being a ranged Troll still far outweigh the cons. I like to live.
Even still
5 body dice and +1 dermal armor > 1.33 more combat pool. The benefits of being a ranged Troll still far outweigh the cons. I like to live.
| QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 14 2006, 10:08 PM) | ||
You are correct. |
Essence +3 isn't a hard limit, it is simply the point at which a character starts recieving some annoying and dangerous penalities. There is no upper limit to the amount of bioware a character can have, so long as he is wiling to live with the consequences. A chatacter with a bioindex of 100 will not be able to make a healing test, will not be able to resist diseases or toxins, and will not have a single overflow box. Other than that, the character is viable in some games. Magical healing, wearing a hazmat suit, and not taking deadly damage still work great.
Also, a troll will still be able to safely cram in more bioware because of high body, since it is body that is used to take toxin/disease resistance tests, determine the number of overflow boxes one has, and make healing tests. The penalties effect the troll less because he has more. A Body 15 Troll with 28 points of bioindex can still make his own healing tests (albeit at a +14 TN) whereas a lesser character would be on borrowed time.
That's hardcore. Using a troll and bioware you can now role play the Frankenstein monster.
In answer to the original post, I think you are approaching the question from a min/max view.
Some folks simply want to roleplay a troll for the fun of it.
I'm creating an SR4 troll dweeb hacker. Think of the Lone Gunmen from the X-Files, but with warts and horns.
Some folks simply want to roleplay a troll for the fun of it.
I'm creating an SR4 troll dweeb hacker. Think of the Lone Gunmen from the X-Files, but with warts and horns.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 15 2006, 09:07 AM) | ||||
Essence +3 isn't a hard limit, it is simply the point at which a character starts recieving some annoying and dangerous penalities. There is no upper limit to the amount of bioware a character can have, so long as he is wiling to live with the consequences. |
You're right, Essence+3 isn't a hard limit. One does exist, though. You can't have above 9 Bio Index.
| QUOTE (Man & Machine pg 77) |
| If a character has bioware implanted that exceeds 9 points of Bio Index, the character's body goes into shock and he dies. |
Darn, I missed that. Well, so much for the BI 28 Troll.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Darn, I missed that. Well, so much for the BI 28 Troll. |
You can still do BI 9 and Essence 0.01.
That should be messed-up enough for you.
| QUOTE (ethinos) |
| In answer to the original post, I think you are approaching the question from a min/max view. Some folks simply want to roleplay a troll for the fun of it. I'm creating an SR4 troll dweeb hacker. Think of the Lone Gunmen from the X-Files, but with warts and horns. |
Keep in mind, that can depend a lot on the GM and the other players, too. There are games where non-twinked characters aren't that viable, survival-wise.
I agree, though, about having fun playing against the stereotype. When I ran a troll adept, Rent, on the forums, I made him a dapper face who was a crack shot with a pistol.
What about a 15+ body, 2 essence, Troll Sorcery Adept? I'll admit I haven't played it, but the concept inspires my inner twink. It runs risks of course, but the potential benefits are staggering...
Just had a friend roll up a troll archer adept with a 17M bow attack, suffice to say Dikote does not improve the situation.
On a small aside trolls supposedly make up an infamous 1% of the population. Though taken in by the ork communities the roleplay kick of being 'special' and all that goes with being 9ft tall and ugly should be more than enough to bring roleplay interest. Consider the rareity of a troll magican in society for example. I think this thread has proven we are only limited by our imagination.
On a small aside trolls supposedly make up an infamous 1% of the population. Though taken in by the ork communities the roleplay kick of being 'special' and all that goes with being 9ft tall and ugly should be more than enough to bring roleplay interest. Consider the rareity of a troll magican in society for example. I think this thread has proven we are only limited by our imagination.
I think quite a few of us have done the tweaked out troll archer. Though I thought it was hilarious that my char's other weapon was the slingshot. Yeah, a troll slingshot, it was kinda weird when we were in a car chase and my character was leaning out using his slingshot on the chase vehicle (no bow at the time).
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) |
| I think quite a few of us have done the tweaked out troll archer. Though I thought it was hilarious that my char's other weapon was the slingshot. Yeah, a troll slingshot, it was kinda weird when we were in a car chase and my character was leaning out using his slingshot on the chase vehicle (no bow at the time). |
I think you kinda missed my main point there a bit.
Nah, I know what the main point was, but I was doing an aside.
edit: Ya already made a good point, but my little statement was about some silliness. Not related to the main point of the thread, just kinda, partially, sort of related.
edit: Ya already made a good point, but my little statement was about some silliness. Not related to the main point of the thread, just kinda, partially, sort of related.
Fair enough. Twinking is oft harboured hobby of roleplay sillyness.
I'm actually still curious about what you guys think of that Troll Mystic Adept (SR4) build I came up with. Decent physical damage soak, decent magic resistance and counterspelling...I could possibly see playing it.
Here...quick cross-post of it:
Here...quick cross-post of it:
[ Spoiler ]
One of my friend was a big fan of troll. But he hardly made his PC very good in Melee.
It's the Heavy Weapon Specialist he was fond of. Had to orient many campaigns toward more military oriented work because of him.
In SR4, Trolls are less dominant in Melee. +1 reach doesn't nearly mean the same thing when it it's +1 dice instead of a modifier to TN! Same with Damage ; +2 DV isn't as hard to take as +4 to TN test for damage in most instance. They are still pretty damn good, though. It's just that if they don't make melee one of their main focus they'll get beat by a non-troll who did much easier than in SR3. Troll were at their peak in melee in SR2 (except that back then they were so slow that successfully running up to someone and engaging in melee was a tricky proposition!).
OTOH, I feel they are less handicapped in other field of activities in SR4. For the same reason their bonus in melee are less significant, their hindrances are easier to overcome.
It's the Heavy Weapon Specialist he was fond of. Had to orient many campaigns toward more military oriented work because of him.
In SR4, Trolls are less dominant in Melee. +1 reach doesn't nearly mean the same thing when it it's +1 dice instead of a modifier to TN! Same with Damage ; +2 DV isn't as hard to take as +4 to TN test for damage in most instance. They are still pretty damn good, though. It's just that if they don't make melee one of their main focus they'll get beat by a non-troll who did much easier than in SR3. Troll were at their peak in melee in SR2 (except that back then they were so slow that successfully running up to someone and engaging in melee was a tricky proposition!).
OTOH, I feel they are less handicapped in other field of activities in SR4. For the same reason their bonus in melee are less significant, their hindrances are easier to overcome.
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