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L.D
I haven't read the entire book, but I've searched for the answers to some of these questions both in the book and here, but I've been unable to find anything. So here we go. (And yes, I know I can houserule about a lot of this but I just want to know what the devs and this community thinks about this.)

* The book talks about "Paths of the adept" and how those without a path "inevitably find it harder to develop their gifts." but I haven't been able to find a mechanic for this. You'd think that if you follow a way you get a discount on your powers, or perhaps a karmadiscount for raising you magic, but no such luck. On page 31 there's the optional rule about adepts and geasa, but that's got nothing to do with paths. So what gives?

* While I'm talking about paths, lets take a closer look at the The Shamanic Way. Do you just pick an animal and try to behave like it or are you as a follower allowed to pick the Mentor spirit quality? And if you can pick the mentor, what are the advantages? Because most animal totems have advantages that are purely for spellcasting/conjuring but have disadvantages that are behavioral. In MiTS the shamanic way adept got the possibility to do the astral quest ordeal and I'd like that.

* Speaking of ordeals... I wanna talk about meditation. Is it really meant to be impossible at lower grades? Because seriously... if you want to use it for lets say your first initiation... yeah... as if. I'd have 4 days to finish two tests: 1) with 6D6 (18, 1day) and 2) with 7D6 (20, 1day). Maybe I'd be able to pull it of for my second initiation, but probably not...

* And how about suffering... 10BP of Negative qualities... no matter what grade. If I'd later want to remove those, that'd be 20 karma. Talk about loosing out on the first couple of initiations... I was thinking about a scale where the first 3-5 grades gave you 5 BP, the next 3-5 gave 10 BP and so on...

* Lets talk about groups... one of the benefits of a group is "Group initiation" and if you read the description it says: "An appropriate initiation rite (p. 50) must be prepared in advance and must be attended by at least three other members. The number of members in a group equals the maximum grade one can achieve via group initiation." and that's pretty cool (puts a bit of a dampener on small groups, but whatever...) until you read about founding a group where it says: "Starting a magical group requires two or more Awakened members"... Say what now? I can start a group with just 2 members, but to be able to use group initiation (which is the main purpose for players to join/found a group) there's gotta be 4 members? How does that work? Really... I want to know...

* And speaking of founding a group... how it's done leaves me a bit puzzled. The book says: "This ritual requires that all participants make an Arcana + Logic (number of members) Test using teamwork (p. 59, SR4)." So... if there are for example 5 people trying to create a group then all five would have to make separate tests, but using the teamwork rules? Am I correct?

* More about founding a group... the text says: "If the character is already an initiate, his initiate grade adds to the dice pool." But the Group Founding Table says that you receive a -2 dice pool modifier per member who previously initiated in a magical group. So it's both a benefit and a disadvantage to have been previously in a group? Yeah, I know you can be initiated with having been in a group, but still.
Synner
QUOTE (L.D @ Aug 13 2006, 08:43 AM)
* The book talks about "Paths of the adept" and how those without a path "inevitably find it harder to develop their gifts." but I haven't been able to find a mechanic for this. You'd think that if you follow a way you get a discount on your powers, or perhaps a karmadiscount for raising you magic, but no such luck.  On page 31 there's the optional rule about adepts and geasa, but that's got nothing to do with paths. So what gives?

There is no mechanical modifier to presented in the rules for several reasons. One is because this doesn't necessarily refer to adept powers but also stuff like groups, initiations, metamagics and instructors (for which we do suggest modifiers). A second point is because an awful lot of people just don't go to the trouble of enforcing the roleplaying of ways the way they might do traditions. Finally, we simply had space issues and some stuff was left out.

For reference, the mechanic we developed (and which was previously introduced in SR3's SOTA64) was not a cost reduction for those that follow ways but a cost increase (of 25%) for those that don't follow a particular way (ie. "the Lost").

I definitely would have liked to have had more space for some fiction to provide further context for that chapter but...

QUOTE
* While I'm talking about paths, lets take a closer look at the The Shamanic Way. Do you just pick an animal and try to behave like it or are you as a follower allowed to pick the Mentor spirit quality? And if you can pick the mentor, what are the advantages? Because most animal totems have advantages that are purely for spellcasting/conjuring but have disadvantages that are behavioral. In MiTS the shamanic way adept got the possibility to do the astral quest ordeal and I'd like that.

The shamanic adept follows a totem (animal mentor spirit) and tries to embody the anthromophic qualities that his culture attributes to the totem. His powers are often modeled after the totem's natural abilities, and his behaviour tends to parallel what you'd expect of the totem (much like a shaman).

You are correct that few of the mentor spirits present mechanical advantages appropriate to adepts but then again the idea of ways is to provide a thematic core to the character's development.

QUOTE
* Speaking of ordeals... I wanna talk about meditation. Is it really meant to be impossible at lower grades? Because seriously... if you want to use it for lets say your first initiation... yeah... as if. I'd have 4 days to finish two tests: 1) with 6D6 (18, 1day) and 2) with 7D6 (20, 1day). Maybe I'd be able to pull it of for my second initiation, but probably not...

It is indeed meant to get easier as you progress in initiation. Meditation is about harmonizing all the aspects of the Self and attain inner balance and peace. As such, as you progress along the path of enlightment, spiritual advancement and self-awareness that is initiation the easier it should become.


QUOTE
* And how about suffering... 10BP of Negative qualities... no matter what grade. If I'd later want to remove those, that'd be 20 karma. Talk about loosing out on the first couple of initiations... I was thinking about a scale where the first 3-5 grades gave you 5 BP, the next 3-5 gave 10 BP and so on...

Most of the ordeals have a nasty thorn or two. That is intentional. 10 BPs were calculated to balance out with some of the nastier consequences of some of the other ordeals.

If you feel more comfortable with a sliding scale your idea seems fine to me.

QUOTE
* Lets talk about groups... one of the benefits of a group is "Group initiation" and if you read the description it says: "An appropriate initiation rite (p. 50) must be prepared in advance and must be attended by at least three other members. The number of members in a group equals the maximum grade one can achieve via group initiation." and that's pretty cool (puts a bit of a dampener on small groups, but whatever...) until you read about founding a group where it says: "Starting a magical group requires two or more Awakened members"... Say what now? I can start a group with just 2 members, but to be able to use group initiation (which is the main purpose for players to join/found a group) there's gotta be 4 members? How does that work? Really... I want to know...

Yup. Which means if you start with a small group (>4 members) you won't be able to use group initiation to begin with and will need to recruit.

As usual the gamemaster is free to tweak this up or down to suit his game, but the baseline limit (4 members) was introduced to limit certain types of abuse and to make groups look beyond the confines of their little running cabal for new members.

QUOTE
* And speaking of founding a group... how it's done leaves me a bit puzzled. The book says: "This ritual requires that all participants make an Arcana + Logic (number of members) Test using teamwork (p. 59, SR4)." So... if there are for example 5 people trying to create a group then all five would have to make separate tests, but using the teamwork rules? Am I correct?

You're right. That was unclearly worded (noted for future errata or FAQ) but your interpretation is correct. All potential members must make the test, and all must succeed for the group bond to form.

QUOTE
* More about founding a group... the text says: "If the character is already an initiate, his initiate grade adds to the dice pool." But the Group Founding Table says that you receive a -2 dice pool modifier per member who previously initiated in a magical group. So it's both a benefit and a disadvantage to have been previously in a group? Yeah, I know you can be initiated with having been in a group, but still.

The two modifiers aren't contradictory (but they might cancel each other out). A character gets a positive modifier to his Test if he is initiated. However, if the character, or any other potential member of the new group, has already initiated through another magical group (has been part of the other groups bond and undergone initiation with them) it is harder for them to form a completely new group bond. So yes, self-initiating before entering a group would be the better solution.

Hope that helps.
L.D
QUOTE (Synner)
There is no mechanical modifier to presented in the rules for several reasons. One is because this doesn't necessarily refer to adept powers but also stuff like groups, initiations, metamagics and instructors (for which we do suggest modifiers). A second point is because an awful lot of people just don't go to the trouble of enforcing the roleplaying of ways the way they might do traditions. Finally, we simply had space issues and some stuff was left out.

For reference, the mechanic we developed (and which was previously introduced in SR3's SOTA64) was not a cost reduction for those that follow ways but a cost increase (of 25%) for those that don't follow a particular way (ie. "the Lost").

I definitely would have liked to have had more space for some fiction to provide further context for that chapter but...


I remembered seeing some sort of mechanic, but forgot it was in SOTA64. The thing was that based on the wording I was expecting to see at least an optional rule concerning "the Lost" and got confused when I couldn't find one.

Ah... always that problem with space. smile.gif


QUOTE
The shamanic adept follows a totem (animal mentor spirit) and tries to embody the anthromophic qualities that his culture attributes to the totem. His powers are often modeled after the totem's natural abilities, and his behaviour tends to parallel what you'd expect of the totem (much like a shaman). 

You are correct that few of the mentor spirits present mechanical advantages appropriate to adepts but then again the idea of ways is to provide a thematic core to the character's development.


But should the shamanic adept have an animal mentor spirit? Thus having the Mentor Spirit Quality. I can imagine going one of two ways: 1) say that he has, but he doesn't pay for it and gains no real advantages/disadvantages and just tries to emulate it or 2) let him pay for it with BP, but then the problem arises about the advantages...


QUOTE
QUOTE
* Speaking of ordeals... I wanna talk about meditation. Is it really meant to be impossible at lower grades? Because seriously... if you want to use it for lets say your first initiation... yeah... as if. I'd have 4 days to finish two tests: 1) with 6D6 (18, 1day) and 2) with 7D6 (20, 1day). Maybe I'd be able to pull it of for my second initiation, but probably not...

It is indeed meant to get easier as you progress in initiation. Meditation is about harmonizing all the aspects of the Self and attain inner balance and peace. As such, as you progress along the path of enlightment, spiritual advancement and self-awareness that is initiation the easier it should become.


But at the first initiation it's not only difficult, but impossible (unless you have some weird attributes) and that's my problem.


QUOTE
QUOTE
* Lets talk about groups... one of the benefits of a group is "Group initiation" and if you read the description it says: "An appropriate initiation rite (p. 50) must be prepared in advance and must be attended by at least three other members. The number of members in a group equals the maximum grade one can achieve via group initiation." and that's pretty cool (puts a bit of a dampener on small groups, but whatever...) until you read about founding a group where it says: "Starting a magical group requires two or more Awakened members"... Say what now? I can start a group with just 2 members, but to be able to use group initiation (which is the main purpose for players to join/found a group) there's gotta be 4 members? How does that work? Really... I want to know...

Yup. Which means if you start with a small group (>4 members) you won't be able to use group initiation to begin with and will need to recruit.

As usual the gamemaster is free to tweak this up or down to suit his game, but the baseline limit (4 members) was introduced to limit certain types of abuse and to make groups look beyond the confines of their little running cabal for new members.


In that case you'd might want to clarify that somewhere, because I just figured it was a mistake somehow...


QUOTE
QUOTE
* And speaking of founding a group... how it's done leaves me a bit puzzled. The book says: "This ritual requires that all participants make an Arcana + Logic (number of members) Test using teamwork (p. 59, SR4)." So... if there are for example 5 people trying to create a group then all five would have to make separate tests, but using the teamwork rules? Am I correct?

You're right. That was unclearly worded (noted for future errata or FAQ) but your interpretation is correct. All potential members must make the test, and all must succeed for the group bond to form.


Ah, thanks. Actually it wasn't until I was writing this post that I realised that interpretation was possible. So a clarification would be good, yeah.


QUOTE
QUOTE
* More about founding a group... the text says: "If the character is already an initiate, his initiate grade adds to the dice pool." But the Group Founding Table says that you receive a -2 dice pool modifier per member who previously initiated in a magical group. So it's both a benefit and a disadvantage to have been previously in a group? Yeah, I know you can be initiated with having been in a group, but still.

The two modifiers aren't contradictory (but they might cancel each other out). A character gets a positive modifier to his Test if he is initiated. However, if the character, or any other potential member of the new group, has already initiated through another magical group (has been part of the other groups bond and undergone initiation with them) it is harder for them to form a completely new group bond. So yes, self-initiating before entering a group would be the better solution.


I realized that after I made this post, but left it anyway to see what response I'd get. smile.gif

Thanks for the answers!
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