So my runner hacks into a commlink, sets off an alarm, and gets set upon by a rating 4 IC running armour 4 and black hammer 4. The runner attacks, the IC defends, the runner attacks, the IC defends, the runner attacks the IC defends...

This goes on for 6 full IPs, with the runner landing a hit on the IC and wounding it after using 3 points of edge.

The runner then jacks out and decides to go about progressing the run in the physical world.

Matrix combat is really dull, it's just attack/defend over and over! There's no maneuvering or special moves or anything. Nothing to make it interesting or make people use tactics.

How does everyone else spice up their matrix combat? (I'm not looking to make it harder, this IC was plenty tough enough for my player, I just want to make it more interesting)

i have a feel that unwired will give us something to work with.
but while we wait, how about this:

take aim:
spend a simple action and roll logic+hacking. add the hits as extra dice on your next attack action.

hide:
simple action, hacking+stealth. the persona stays hidden and untargetable for hits number of turns. the IC can use pilot+analyze to remove hits at a 1 to 1 ratio.

evasive actions:
complex action, hacking+stealth, add hits number of dice to any defensive tests done until the hackers next initative pass.

Well, for one we use elaborate iconography to represent combating characters. Regular combat would also be boring if you called the enemies Street Sams 1 through 5 and the Players 1 through 3.

My GM usually describes IC as security personel with blank faces and guns or batons. My personal IC look like Spartan warriors with spears and brass armor. Spiders look like, well, spiders or scorpions and usually drop from the ceiling. Attack programs are usually energy-style weapons while Black IC programs are usually melee weapons, but there aren't any rules, obviously.

My persona is named Hermes, so he looks like an alabaster statue with a loin cloth (Armor program), winged shoes (Stealth program), winged helmet (Biofeedback filter), and a Caduceus (two snakes winding around a poll, one of Hermes' symbols). The Caduceus represents my commlink and any loaded attack programs, and Spartans or other programs' iconography jump forth from it. A crystal to peer through for Analyze, a quill for Editing, that kind of thing. I usually make it up as I go along, so does the GM. If any programs get crashed, they dissappear from the persona.

Foreign nodes are always different. In Cybercombat I've gotten cut by ninja, seared by fire Elementals, chopped by wild Natives, and often just blasted on my ass by an energy attack. As I stated above, the GM picks an archetype for the system off the top of his head or based on whoever built it. Volcanoes, Under the Sea, Mideval Japan, or a sterile hospital. The sky's the limit, have fun with it.

ah, the power of sculpted systems.
sadly it does not apply that well for AR combat...

well, instead of windows, they could be translucent 3d models or something, but end effect is much the same.

And if I recall, when Bull was soliciting questions for his Hacking FAQ, this was question #1.

By me

AR doesn't have to break from the iconography that is commonplace in VR. It may be shorter animations, but take fighting games for example. A lot happens in a few seconds if you know what you're doing. I always thought it was weird that hacking involved weird fighting between icons. It seems like it wouldn't be conducive to hacking, being a distraction and all.

AR combat might be described differently than VR, but still interestingly. The icons are there (primarily as an indicator of who's around and what they're doing), but actual actions could be described not merely as animations of those icons, but as other effects. Think of what hacking often looks like in movies (you know, in movies where computers seem to be magic and hackers are demigods). When attacked, you could see windows of raw code being disrupted, the code being altered by random values. You could even blend this with icon animations, wherein an IC firing a laser blasts the code, leaving behind red, corrupted text amid the proper white text.

Just an idea. I definitely think there's an opportunity for something different here. Not that it'll matter much in my game. Physical reflex boosters do not help with AR in my game.

AS the player in question I agree with my GM.

Cybercombat was boring, for me let alone the other two players who were sat twiddling their thumbs.

No amount of flavour text will improve the situation either, because at the end of the day it is simple flavour text, it means nothing in the game.
In regular combat "There is a dirty ally with a fire escape and a dumpster" That dumpster can be used as cover, the fire escape is a handy way out if cornered...

In VR "the node is a castle with knights and a moat as the firewall. There are peasants carrying data in and out."
Very nice, and pretty, but essentially still just flavour, it boils down to my programs against theirs with no modifiers except wounds.

I have a start hacker, Cracking group 4 (something I now think was a mistake should have bought hacking and cybercombat at 6)
Response 4 all relevant programs 6 (reduced to 4 because of response)

I did forget to add in my +2 dice for hot sim.

Hack into a system on the fly, oh dear triggered an alarm. rating 4 blackhammer IC attacks.

I get 3IP it gets 3IP.

I attack 8 dice (should have been 10 but I forgot) it defends 8 dice.
If I hit it takes 5 damage with 8 dice to stop it, expecting 3 so perhaps 2 boxes.

It attacks 8 dice, I defend 8 dice (response 4 firewall 4) (is firewall restricted by system? do I get +2 for hot sim?)
If it hits me I am in a lot of trouble so I use edge to defend.

After 3 combat TURNS I have done 4 boxes. (all from my first attack where I used edge). I did roll bad on attack. It just boiled down to rolling dice to attack, then defend, then attack, then defend. As the other PCs got more bored I decided to blow that for a game of soldiers and jacked out reporting I couldn't get past the security.
Neither side could do anything to gain an advantage. All that mattered was 1 skill and a bunch of gear which is limited at startup.

So flavour text aside, anyone know how to fix this? Or are we doing something completely wrong?

You could always add some extra maneuvers that parallel some of the physical combat maneuvers (take aim, etc), as has been suggested.

I might allow characters to assume that icons I describe in the environment are more than window dressing. Let them take cover. Let them manipulate the environment (to a degree). This is, of course, symbolic. You are not hiding behind a rock. Maybe you're taking advantage of a program glitch that is disruptive to attack programs. Or you are attempting to redirect programs targeting you to an extraneous file (the icon of which is a rock). You simply apply the normal cover rules to this situation.

I'm sure there are other possibilities.

There is nothing really stopping you from adding cover modifiers from the virtual enviroment because they are ”real” to anyone in VR. Virtual “fog” in a full VR multiplayer game would most likely affect vision or your “attack” program.

Play it out like a real battle where the attack program might be a gun, lance, spell whatever. The Node environment might be a virtual office complex with walls and cubicles stopping attacks from attack programs.

I've been trying to resolve this issue in my games as well...I think it still comes down to the fact that only once character is acting...I mean, unless you have a group that is going to take advantage of everyone jumping into the matrix, even if AR, then you are still isolating a single player during a group run...and everyone else is just sitting around.

Some of my players try to stay interested, but the others just pass the time until the hacker is back in the real world. I keep telling them it won't be so bad once there is a firefight and the hacker is in the matrix while the rest of the group is attacking, but so far, that hasn't happened and the hacker is taking matrix actions when the rest of the group isn't doing anything.

We have gotten faster at resolving matrix stuff, but that is due to scrapping the fluff stuff and just getting down to the basic actions, rolling dice and then getting out...I try to describe some stuff, but it often just gets in the way, and with the rest of my players just wanting to hurry up and get on with the game...its tough.

One of the things I was happy with in 4th was how the hacker was more integrated with the team, but it appears there is still an isolation factor. And maybe it will change in the future, with the hacker deciding to open backdoors and whatnot to let the other characters jack in and help out, but not all my players even care to go AR or VR alongside the hacker...

Well, there's no reason you can't drop more players into the matrix, it's not like you have to be cybered to do it any more.

I think the simplified matrix helps a LOT to alleviate the problem of decker isolation, I just wish there was a bit more to combat. Perhaps Unwired will help with this problem, as well as the other matrix problems of not really knowing how it all works.

Well, there IS nothing stopping you from uploading the same programs to the team and let them piggyback on the hackers connection. Once he has opened the door they could actually join in the action by AR - ok, they won't be GOOD at it but they could provide backup or just sit back and be quiet.

Since everyone and their mother now has a commlink they could join in, not well but they could sit with a stealth program and a basic attack program, it's only their commlink taking damage anyway.

This way the entire team is involved. Or they could watch the show from the hackers eyes on their own commlinks while eating popcorn and cheering him on...

Well, I will certainly put those down as options to bring to my group...and it does make sense...the rest of the characters in AR, with Armor, Attack and Stealth...at the very least, they could help out...

I think my players still have a barrier that if they aren't a hacker, they don't belong "in" the matrix, so I should try a bit harder to surpass that obstacle...

For me, that would help...not really helping the "boring" aspect of the matrix for some players, but at least if everyone is involved, its not a huge thumb-twiddler. Although, I do think because these are starting characters, the group hasn't completely meshed yet...

I know it's been debated to death, but the use of Wired Reflexes in AR somewhat helps to integrate my Hacker with the team.
I'm often blasting some spider with Black Hammer in AR one IP and firing my Ares Alpha the next. I know, I know, Anathema to some of you, but my GM does a decent job of planning around Hackercentricity, which sometimes involves giving them more strength, itstead of taking it away.

Also, there's no reason that nothing else can be going on while the hacker works. If characters choose to sit and watch the hacker work, that's fine, but they can get up and do stuff. Matrix combat can occur simultaneous to normal combat, for example.

I agree...but in practice, everyone kinda sits around and waits...plus, outside of combat, there is not much the other players can do when we are breaking things up into IPs...

first, i don't think it's a matter of the rest of the team tagging along with the decker in Matrix combat. they've all got commlinks, right, to handle their various stuff--routing all their gear, etcetera? that means they're all online, and that means they're liable to be attacked. if the team's shooters are using skinlinked smartlinks, knocking their commlinks out of commission will take out their smartlinks. if they're using an AR map to navigate, taking out their commlink will deny them that advantage. heck, the rest of the team is more likely to be attacked than the hacker--they're easier targets.

second, there's no reason an AR battle can't take place at the same time as a regular battle. the opposition--and the team, for that matter, once they figure things out--should be mixing AR attacks and bullets the same way they mix bullets and spells/spirits.

in short, there is absolutely no reason for the rest of the team to sit around twiddling their thumbs while the hacker does his thing.

When going on system infiltration runs, our hackers (two) Probe the Target. It's just safer. For us, the above time-inconsistency isn't a problem. For that matter, any PC can do legwork at the table by sending pics and info to contacts, looking up info that interests them and even interjecting when the hacker starts making his boring rolls with a little bit of RP. If your group isn't all cheaters than one player can roll for the opposing system while the GM talks to the rest of the players about what they're doing.

The group I run for does not have a hacker we have a technomancer and cyberware is a no no.. .therefore I will keep AR rules the way they are.. Besides Our Technomancer gets enough spotlite on pretty 90% of the runs. I mean without her they would be up a creek alot of the time. Therefore I dont see a reason to have her be as quick in AR on the outside as she is on the inside even if she was a hacker I would not allow Wired reflexes or boosted reflexes to effect her AR combat/actions.

As for Hackers getting alot of attention that has been something that has happened in Shadowrun since first edition. Granted the 4th edition has made huge improvements. Our Technomancer runs shotgun for our group hacking security systems and building cameras constantly communicating with the group to help them clear the way. She prefers to hack from afar then head in with them but sometimes she has to be there. I think our group loves having her and dont mind that sometimes she takes some of the time away from them.

How do you prepare for this sort of thing? Even when you have the stats of a system, security protocol, and where info is at on a network, you still can get bogged down in the cybercombat if the hacker gets caught. Whatsmore, the players always seem to think of something that you didn't.

you prepare by making sure that there are lots of points where the team can get into simultaneous Matrix and physical activities, and rarely or never any points where solo hacking will allow the team to succeed. solo hacking should be handled the same way as astral recon or even astral quests--one on one, if possible, while the rest of the players are getting pizza or whatever.

i dunno how many of y'all have ever played SR3, but several of you certainly have an SR3 mindset when it comes to Matrix stuff. you've got this picture of the hacker as the guy who sits in his room and hacks things by himself. that's now how things work in SR4. it's one of the things that's really, really great about SR4--you have the ability to integrate just about everything the different character types can accomplish. if you're not using that ability to its fullest extent, that's your fault, not the ruleset.

I agree that a SR3 mindset can certainly get in the way - but I don't think its entirely any GMs fault... especially if the hacker has the same SR3 mindset, and prefers to do his thing from the safety of a coffin motel or something similar.

Although SR4 allows for the hacker to be doign his hacking thing while the rest of the group is doing a shoot-em-up or something, I still think the power to bog down the game lies in the PCs hands, should they chose to use it.

Lets say the team hears about some shadey shiz goin down at a certain nightclub - and the Decker thinks it might be worth a look in their matrix node (or maybe he just wants to add the group to the VIP list so they can get in without any hassle). He would be a retard to wait until the whole group is walking into the nightclub to start doing his thing. Sure, it would allow for the whole group to be interacting with NPCs, furthering the plot, or doing their end of the legwork at the same time... but by the same token, a hacker in VR could finish the job before the teams taxi arrived to take them to the club - but, it could eat up a half-hour or so of real time.

In almost every mission (SR3 or SR4) that I have played, after being told the details, the hacker/decker always wanted to investigate something online afterwards. That is where they shine, and where some really valuable information can come from... but I, for one, have trouble thinking up a plot hook wherin the decker would feel absolutely no interest in taking a 5-minute delve into the matrix to better inform the group after hearing what it was.

I think the best that a GM can do to mitigate this sort of thing, is to have prepared a bunch of information that the players might find on public-nodes after performing data-searches given the information that you know they will have after the meet. Then, with one roll (or a bunch of extended rolls, that you can pretty much assume any decent hacker can make) you hand them the paper, or whatever and let them sift through it all on their own time.

If the player is determined to hack a system on the fly though, I still don't think there isn't much the GM can do to keep the other players involved unless
A) The GM isn't worried about time flowing the same speed for both teams, and knows it would take some time for them to meet back up and/or message one another (for example, the team splits up, to do independant legwork, and plans to meet back up the following night) or
B) The rest of the team instantly gets into combat. =D Combat is pretty much the only other system with the same real-time-to-game-time ratio.

Otherwise, the hacker is more than likely going to complete his task in less than 5-minutes, meaning anything the other players wanted to accomplish probably won't even be started by the time the hacker is done.

there are two possible ways to handle stuff like that--at least, there are two that occur to me off the top of my head.

the first is to simply push through it as fast as possible. give the host low stats, fudge the rolls if that's your thing, maybe even skip the rolls entirely unless the hacker's trying something actually difficult (or stupid). if it's something that a) the hacker's probably going to succeed at and b) isn't particularly dramatic or important to the run, rp it out and roll as little as possible. just because you're doing stuff in the Matrix doesn't mean you have to break things down into init passes and stuff.

second, make good use of offline hosts and signal-inhibiting materials. if the club is big and exclusive, give them a custom setup where the guest list is kept in an onsite server room whose walls form a Faraday cage. to hack the really important stuff, make the team go all Ocean's 11.

iirc, the only program a node is able to use without using ice is analyze.
so trace would be stuffed inside a ice just like all the rest.

still, launching both a trace and a attack ice (possibly a blackout or black hammer ice) would be tacticaly sound given fillmores points. having more then one target force you to prioritize, and taking down one makes you open for the other.

would be interesting if the trace ice had a way to go hide after it had a lock and was going down the route.

And having sec Hackers visiting a node doesn't reduce it's response, while IC will. Having a distraction IC and a trace IC is a good idea. I think I'd stick with a Stealthed Tracer, though. Let s the intruder take his time.

I've played a hacker and been a GM for hackers/TMs. Generally, I've found that when IC is lauched, the player is more interested in finishing up what she's doing and getting out than facing down the IC in combat. If it's just the hacker and not the rest of the team, I do away with initiative rolls altogether and just go back and forth (with the appropriate tweaks for IPs). Most of the time, I'm able to arrange for the serious Matrix combat to coincide with meatspace combat.

Ultimately, I haven't seen Matrix combat as a problem.

Erm, a drone Pilot program is essentially the same as an IC program, which are both the same as Agent programs. The difference between the three isn't how they work so much as what they're assigned to do. IC is nothing more than a Matrix Agent program that is activated automatically by a node, rather than manually by a hacker. A drone Pilot is just an Agent that issues commands to to the drone or other meatspace machine rather than running Matrix programs.

(Edit): The problem many people are having is that they think that the Pilot attribute is the same as a Pilot program, and that the pilot's governing program (the "Pilot attribute") takes over a node's System. The flavor paragraph on page 213-214 saying this is unfortunate, because it muddies the waters here, but the rest of the rules seem to be saying that Agents/IC/drone Pilots are programs being run under a node's OS and act as users of the node, rather than completely replacing/overwriting the node's OS. The Agent/IC/drone Pilot's "Pilot Attribute" governs how well the Agent/IC/drone Pilot program operates, and is thus called an "operating system", but I don't think it should replace the actual node or drone's native System rating, and in no place other than that unfortunate flavor paragraph on page 213-214 is it ever implied to.

Possible errata, or am I completely off base here?

Would a drone's Pilot program take up Response though? That doesn't seem right.

No I think that would just take one of your subscriber slots.

If your deck (sorry comlink, old habits die hard) isn't running it it won't slow it down. The drone will run its own pilot.

I think my comm is getting an upgrade