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laughingowl
Comparing Pepper Punch to say CS/Riot Gas.


From the description both are inhalation/contact, Both could be load into a Gas grenade.

The difference is. Pepper punch has a higher Power rating AND it is very cheap and legal.


Did I miss something, or is there NO reason to ever us CS/Riot gas instead of pepper punch?




cybertrucker
Umm actually I would say that pepper spray is in all actuality stronger than CS... Being that I was in the army and got the grand ole chance to experiance the CS chamber during basic. It takes some time for CS to hit you hard, Pepper spray however which I have been hit with also by a dumb ass friend that was goofing off took immediate effect and its something I dont wish to experience ever again. It was by far more painful and more immediate than the CS was. CS was more uncomfortable after a period of time.
HullBreach
QUOTE (cybertrucker)
Umm actually I would say that pepper spray is in all actuality stronger than CS... Being that I was in the army and got the grand ole chance to experiance the CS chamber during basic. It takes some time for CS to hit you hard, Pepper spray however which I have been hit with also by a dumb ass friend that was goofing off took immediate effect and its something I dont wish to experience ever again. It was by far more painful and more immediate than the CS was. CS was more uncomfortable after a period of time.

I can back him up on this, CS takes some time to kick in, and if you've got the will and have experienced it before, you can resist it. Your eyesight still goes to crap (unless your wearing goggles) but so long as you don't start coughing and force yourself not to hyperventalate (common reaction) its not too bad. I would compare its effects on exposed skin to a mild sunburn like sensation.

Pepper-Spray, depending upon the concentration, ranges from a nice topping for nachos to "OH SWEET CHRIST GET IT OFF!". The REALLY nasty stuff comes out as this sticky foam that won't wipe off, it just smears. These usually have more of a contact effect as well, with a nasty burning/itching sensation.

There are ways around the spray though, like smearing your exposed skin with vaseline or a simalar compound, wearing swim goggles, and a good industrial filter mask.
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE
There are ways around the spray though, like smearing your exposed skin with vaseline or a simalar compound, wearing swim goggles, and a good industrial filter mask.


All of which will make you look ridiculous biggrin.gif Imagine a guy smeared with vaseline with swim goggles and a fliter mask on!
warrior_allanon
That real nasty stuff is called OC spray Hullbreach, and while it will put a lot of people down, some (i would guess about 10%) get even meaner and more determined to hurt another when hit with it. (I fall into that perccentage)
Adarael
I believe CS Riot Agent is used primarily because of the low chance of accidental death via over-exposure, not power. If power was the primary concern, CR would be used more often than CS.
Zen Shooter01
I was on the edge of the AOE of an impromptu pepper spray experiment, and I can testify that that is not fun.

Tear gas I've never had the pleasure.
laughingowl
Real life I know the effect of both and can begin to agree with all the comments.

My problem.

Game stat wise, pepper spray is better, 'works' the same way (as I can read), is legal and very cheap.

Do the rules prevent 'Pepper Spray grenades' nothing I can does, the grenade itself is just vailbilty 4 + (chemical) and price X + (chemical) (cant remember price off hand).

While it was my character that got the 'advantage' from the pepper spray, it just seems like it is too good (balance wise) compared to the other stuff, especially factored into it (even in grenade form) is perfectly legal (by SR4 rules).

peace
HullBreach
I think this is one of those area's where individual GM's are going to have to make a judgement call. Assuming pepper punch is formulated in a manner simalar to the pepper sprays and foams used today, it wouldnt have the staying power in mist form that the CS would.
Clyde
Seems like a pepper spray grenade made as gel or foam would splatter all over really well. But after that, it would be on the floor/walls/ceiling and wouldn't affect anyone walking into the area anew. CS is a gas and would remain airborne for a while and everyone gets to join the party. Pepper mist might be the same way I guess . . .
laughingowl
Well I can attest that 'normal corp security guards' and a couple of grenades loading pepper punch drop like flies.

It was one of the cleanest runs one of my toons has ever made.

1 shot (taser) and 2 grenades took out the 7 man security force.

Pepper Punch nades are AI's (Alice Inside or Alice to her friends) new favorite toy.
Samaels Ghost
This stuff is really only used in very illegal situations. Downing a group of people with pepper foam grenades should be looked down on more than protecting against a mugger with your itty-bitty sprayer. +4 Availability may be a little light in this case. Feel free as a GM to up it a little, or make grenades full of the stuff hard to walk around with. Make it Restricted. Require that they have a licence. Make having the stuff on corp property illegal (you don't need that here. That's what corp sec is here for!)
laughingowl
Sameals:

Well I would expect the police to harass me for carrying the grenades (even if by the rules they are legal)..

Though as my own armorer (TM Deck/rigger0 I load my own. So just need the 'pepper punch' (legal) and the gas grenade (legal??? this may be the problem in the RAW).

Think I will suggest gas grenades (the 'blanks') should be resitrcted atleast.

I cant think of a legitimate reason for one to be had. The 'closest' would be fumigators but even there I could easily call that licensed.
Charon
Some people are almost immune to CS. I didn't find it that strong when I was exposed to it in army training. Others were vomitting seconds after leaving the CS room, though.

But after eating a dried jalapeno pepper... wink.gif

Seriously, one thing about CS though is that it would be easier to spread it over a wide area than pepper IMO. Not scientific proof to offer, but it seems to me that Pepper punch loses a lot of potency if it can't be directed directly on a victicm.


Fresno Bob
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 25 2006, 07:15 PM)
QUOTE
There are ways around the spray though, like smearing your exposed skin with vaseline or a simalar compound, wearing swim goggles, and a good industrial filter mask.

All of which will make you look ridiculous biggrin.gif Imagine a guy smeared with vaseline with swim goggles and a fliter mask on!

He won't look so funny when he's mercilessly beating your ass into the ground with a lead pipe, as you helplessly shoot pepper spray at him.
HullBreach
QUOTE (Voorhees)
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 25 2006, 07:15 PM)
QUOTE
There are ways around the spray though, like smearing your exposed skin with vaseline or a simalar compound, wearing swim goggles, and a good industrial filter mask.

All of which will make you look ridiculous biggrin.gif Imagine a guy smeared with vaseline with swim goggles and a fliter mask on!

He won't look so funny when he's mercilessly beating your ass into the ground with a lead pipe, as you helplessly shoot pepper spray at him.

Theres somthing just so right about that statement....
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE (HullBreach)
QUOTE (Voorhees @ Aug 26 2006, 03:21 PM)
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 25 2006, 07:15 PM)
QUOTE
There are ways around the spray though, like smearing your exposed skin with vaseline or a simalar compound, wearing swim goggles, and a good industrial filter mask.

All of which will make you look ridiculous biggrin.gif Imagine a guy smeared with vaseline with swim goggles and a fliter mask on!

He won't look so funny when he's mercilessly beating your ass into the ground with a lead pipe, as you helplessly shoot pepper spray at him.

Theres somthing just so right about that statement....

Really? That scares me a little indifferent.gif
HullBreach
No worries, Im a big softie in RL smile.gif

I was commenting that it just fit the shadowrun philosophy well.
Samaels Ghost
Getting your ass kicked by ridiculous looking people? Yeah, guess you're right.
HullBreach
Was listening to a favorite radio program yesterday, "Tony Fatso's On the Grill", a radio cooking show that gives out some kick-ass grilling recipies.

Tony was telling a story about making an hours'd'evre(sp?) called "Atomic Buffalo Turds" that consist of a jalepeno' peppers, split into halfs, scooped out, then filled with cream cheese then a 'little smokey' sausage is placed on top and it is wrapped in bacon (cook at 250 deg. F).

Well he had just finished prepping enough jalepeno peppers for 90 of these things, with his bare hands. Well, after doing all this work, he goes to the bathroom to take a leak. It doesn't occur to him to wash his hands first.

Needless to say all of the jalepeno oil's got onto his man-bits, and he was not a happy camper.

The moral of the story is, and ESPECIALLY WITH CS, that even though its not buring you at the moment, if this stuff gets on your clothes, it can get you when you least expect it. When I was in the Marines some genius decided to 'shake' the CS powder out of his cammies by throwing them in the dryer. He gassed out the whole barracks.

Just a fun way to screw with your players after being hit with this stuff!
Mal-2
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
All of which will make you look ridiculous biggrin.gif Imagine a guy smeared with vaseline with swim goggles and a fliter mask on!

Don't people in 2070 Seattle still have days where they have to wear protective gear because of all the ash, smoke, and acid rain? It's not completely out of the question to see someone walking around on the streets with a gasmask or other chemical protective gear in my games, especially when the environmental alert level is raised.

Obviously, there are limits -- people look askance at the guy walking around in full MOPP gear just because it's raining out, but not so much at the guy in customer tailored Armani protectivewear with NBC seals.
Dissonance
Mal-2 makes an interesting point, and I'm going to leech on that one while going off on a tangent. Mainly, about peanut butter. I'm just saying that without looking at any figures whatsoever, it looks like the number of people showing allergic reactions to peanuts and other sorts of things has really gone up.

If moderate to severe allergies are an upward-climbing trend, and having lived in some pretty funky-nasty areas, like the central valley? Giving it 70 years? I imagine that it wouldn't be too outrageous to see people wearing gas-masks pretty much all the time outside, or at least some kind of facial doober to keep themselves from having to jab themselves with an epi-pen just to go to work.

Worst. Allery. Ever. "Allergy (severe): Smog."
prionic6
Three words: peanut butter grenade
PBTHHHHT
Crunchy or Smooth?
Aaron
Smooth. Crunchy is a sin against Nature and George Washington Carver. Crunchy is not real peanut butter. To make peanut butter, everybody knows to follow the instructions immortalized in that pre-school song: first you take the peanuts and you smoosh 'em, you smoosh 'em, you smoosh 'em, smoosh 'em, smoosh 'em. At best, crunchy is peanut butter with impurities. As Jeremy Goldsmith will tell you, Ms. Grundlandís Peanut Butter Cookie recipe uses real peanut butter, not crunchy; Dunkelzahn would have hated them if it had used crunchy.

Hm ... now I want a sandwich ...
Da9iel
Unfinished. You mixed that up. Crunchy is at best unfinished and at worst contaminated (with peanut chunks). Sadly, I still like crunchy. lick.gif I guess I enjoy lots of crimes against nature though, so it's not totally unexpected. silly.gif
Kyoto Kid
...Hurricane Hannah has been very successful using her pepper punch grenades. The big factor is being able to do the "count down" of the timer berfore tossing it so that the oppos don't get the chance to kick it away or try & throw it back.
Fresno Bob
Goddammit, I wish I wasn't out of peanut butter right now.
HullBreach
QUOTE (Voorhees)
Goddammit, I wish I wasn't out of peanut butter right now.

<Ironically reading responses while eating penut-buttered toast>
Oracle
QUOTE (Charon)
But after eating a dried jalapeno pepper...

...you are nearly ready to try a Habanero.

Jum jum, peanut butter. But never without cheese. biggrin.gif

Back to topic: Some people claim that one can get nearly immune to the effects of pepper spray through repeated exposure. Is that true? My only experience with being peppered doesn't encourage trying...
Firewall
QUOTE (Oracle @ Aug 29 2006, 05:52 AM)
Back to topic: Some people claim that one can get nearly immune to the effects of pepper spray through repeated exposure. Is that true? My only experience with being peppered doesn't encourage trying...

How did you react to your first hot Mexican chili? You probably cried, I know I did. The longer you eat the stuff, the easier it is to eat next time. In the end, this is simply because the capsaicin burns your mucus membranes but you become desensitised to it. I would assume that other membranes, like eyes and nose, can also become less-sensitive.

I know CS is something you can get less-sensitive to because I used to know a woman who worked in the US Army sending grunts through a room full of the gas. She said that in the end, she could stand in with them without a mask and it hurt about as much as cigarette smoke in a similarly confined space. (i.e. not much)
Frodric
My Drill Sgt. in the Army was like that. Totally immune it seemed. When we were on ftx he tried to CS us a few times and it didn't work due to weather and fast gas mask drills. At the end he formed all 4 squads around him in a square stood us at attention and dropped 2 cans at his feet. SOB was grinning like a whacko when he was the last man standing.
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