A hot sim VR user gets +2 dp to all matrix actions, 229, SR4. Does that mean a rigger using hot sim VR gets that bonus to tests for controlling the vehicle? Pilot, Gunnery, Vehicle Infiltration, etc.?

I think that's what the Control Rig is for, since it gives a +2 bonus for vehicle actions when rigging.

Plus, when in drones you use the Rigger's Initiative, not their Matrix Initiative.

For the +2 bonus?

Kind of a chicken/egg thing, I suppose.

You get Control Rig's bonus in Cold-sim too.
I don't see why Hot-sim and Control Rig bonuses wouldn't stack.

I misunderstood what was previously said, I suppose.

hmm, are rigger actions matrix actions?

Not when you jump into the vehicle as far as I can tell. Otherwise I'd be the first one to say, "Hells yeah, beatch! Take your +4 mod!"l

EDIT: Goddamn it. Twice in one week...

Hells yeah, beatch! Take your +4 mod!

Okay, so is there a reason to hot-sim rig a vehicle? Beside being a masochist? It seems like hot-sim bonuses are only matrix bonuses and that rigger actions may not benefit.

Sorry if i'm being dense, I really don't get what been said here.

basicly, rigger rules, being a relative of the matrix rules, are vague at best...

Cold SIm 2IP
Hot SIm 3IP

isn't it?

yep, it is.

hmm, after checking a bit i would say that vehicle actions are not matrix actions and therefor do not gain the hot sim +2 bonus for matrix actions.

my guess that this is what that rigger implant is supposed to make up for.

so you could have someone drive a car using physical initative (complete with extra IP's from reflex enhancers), either from inside the car or outside (somhow this seems to be a argument for the AR and multiple IP's debate).

if it got a drone pilot installed you can just tell it to go to some location or other.

or you can go full immersion rigging, either from inside or outside.

wasn't there something like -1 success is needed when in hot sim rigging?

IIRC:

AR control +1 die

VR control -1 threshold (MUCH better) but doesnt matter if hot cold.



Rigging only 2 reasons to go hot....


1) Technomancer and no real choice

2) You want the extra IP... from 2 to 3

Pg. 229 SR4 says that hot sim VR confers a matrix initiative of Response+Intuition+1, with three initiative passes. Additionally, you get a +2 dp to all matrix tests, because the hot sim experience is so intense.

Pg. 239 SR4 says that a rigger jumped into a drone with either cold or hot sim VR uses his own skills and atrributes to control the drone (so does he use his own initiative or matrix initiative?). A hot sim user risks biofeedback damage when the drone is damaged.

Pg. 159 SR4 says that a cold or hot VR jump-pilot recieves a -1 threshold modifier to Pilot tests.

Pg. 331 SR4 says that a Control Rig cyber implant provides a +2 dp bonus on all Vehicle skill tests when jumped into a vehicle/drone via either hot or cold VR.

So the question is: what the hell does all that mean?

I do hope that Unwired provides answers to the matrix muddle, and not more questions

Hmmpf, maybe somebody should make thread about "What unwired is supposed to fix". The issues are piling quite high at the moment.

Laughingowl:

Yes, I understand. But it still leaves the answer unclear to the question of: does a rigger get the +2 dp for vehicle operations when he uses hot sim that a hacker gets for matrix actions when he uses hot sim? Is, in short, a rigger considered to be in the matrix when he does his rigger thing?

I'd be inclined to say yes - the vehicle is just another node in the global web of nodes. But if yes, then +2 dp for hot sim and +2 dp for a Control Rig implant adds up to a lot of dice.

the best way it seems to seperate the two is to look at the skills used.

if you use a vehicle skill then you gain the control rig bonus, if your using a matrix skill then you get the hot sim bonus.

notice, that the hot sim talk about matrix tests, and i would guess that to perform a matrix test you would be using a matrix related skill (computer, hacking, data search, electronic warfare).

the control rig talks about vehicle skill tests, and to me thats a pretty clear indication that the bonus apply to any test that involved a vehicle skill.

so the only way the hot sim bonus dice and the control rig bonus dice would stack is if you could somhow manage to use both a matrix skill and a vehicle skill at the same time...

remote control FTW! =D

rig a vehicle, and remote control from it lol... technically, you are rigging it in VR, so you get +2 dice to vehicle tests... but remote control uses the command program, so should be a matrix action, and should get you +2 dice =D

throw in an extra 2 dice for smartgun, and you've got some pretty danged accurate riggers out there... one side you silly street sams!

(note: i am fully aware that would be a shameless abuse of the rules. assuming it even really works exactly that way, which i haven't checked, to be honest).

anyways, i personally would give the hotsim bonus dice. but that's just me.

page 239, under Jumping Into Drones: "If the drone is destroyed, the rigger is dumped from the Matrix..."
page 239, under Rigger Actions: "The following actions pertain specifically to riggers. Rigger can perform other combat and matrix actions as well while rigging."

So full VR rigging is a Matrix action.

As I understand it, there are no riggers in SR4 like there were in SR1-3. Riggers is merely a term for a Hacker/Technomancer who specializes in drones/vehicles.

page 219

'matrix Actions"

Free:
Alter Swap Icon
changed a Linked Device mode
Detect Wireless Node
Jack Out
Speak Test Phase
Terminate Data Transfer

Simple:
observe in Detail
Call/Dismiss SPrite
Deactivate Program or agent
Dectrypt (with Key)
Issue Command (???)
Log Off
Observe in detail (repeated but page 217 and 137)
Transfer data

Complex Action:
Attack (???)
ompile Sprite
Control Device (???)
Crash Program/OS
Data Search
Decrypt (w/o key)
Detect Hidden node
Disarm data bomb
edit
Intercept traffic
Intercept wireles signal
jam signal
log on
reboot
redirect trace
repair icon
run program or agent
shut down sprite
sppod command
track user


THOSE are matric actions (+2 die for HOT rig)

Issue commands: for you telling a drone wht to do (but 'drone' doing it) (or sprite or agent)

Control Device
This could possibly be the escuse to say shooting with drone it is BUT:
"Note remotely controllely a drone in the matter is different from rigging a drone (requiring you to Jump into a drone with full VR and 'become the drone' or issuing command to a drone (in which case the drone acts on it own accord)" (page 220)

Attack (page 230) is very specific that it is a 'matrix attack' using a program (attack,black hammer,black out) against another icon, NOT shooting a machine gun at a meat body



SO all of those actions above you would get +2 die (though some are not needed (no die roll to speak text, etc)


While you may be 'in the matrix' and possible dumped from matrix for a virtual 'meet' with some one to discuss a job... You DONT get +2 die to the negotiation check when haggling for pay for being Hot rigged. negotiation is NOT a matrix action.

Likewise 'Pistol+Reasction' to fill a body full of lead is NOT a matrix action, even through you may be travelling the matrix to do the action



Likewise Control Rig says

+2 die for all Vehicle Skill checks while jumped into a drone. Does not help in other drone manilpulations

SO Control Rig adds +2 to:

Gunnery, Pilot (x) checks (the only skills under vehicle skills page 125-126)

The Hot-Sim, Control Rig Rigger does NOT get +4 die (hot sim and control rig) for making a negaotiotion check by attending the meet in a drone!

Since the negotation check is not a Matrix action, nor is it a vehicle skill so neither applies

If somebody tries to run away from the meet.

The rigger WOULD get +2 die to chase them (pilot check)

If somebody is 'spying' and the rigger notices it.. He WOULD get a +2 die on his 'jam signal' roll for trying to jam the spy's signal (for Hot rig) but wouldnt get a +2 for control rig, even if the jammer was part of the drone (using it is not vehicle skill, even if 'rigging the drone to use it')

Hope this clarifies my take on the rules and what I am pretty sure is the intended.


Peace

Good post; saved me the time of digging through my PDF to do it myself.

im with you on that one, laughingowl.

so I've got related question: does the control rig give you +2dp for gunnery tests as well?
seems to me like it would but It does spell it out.

wouldn't the smartlink give you the modifier, if the weapon is smartlinked? Stacking the rig and s-link seems kinda cheesy imho....

yeah, great post laughingowl

gunnery is a vehicle skill. control rig adds to all vehicle skills while jumped in.

as written, the control rig most certainly adds to your gunnery skill.

i haven't noticed any general disagreement from the boards, or from any freelancers/writers/developers/whatever that frequent these boards (though that of course doesn't mean there isn't any, just that i haven't seen it).

personally, my guess is that the addition to your dice pool is intentional.

Although I'd personally argue that the smartlink isn't giving you anything that the vehicle sensors aren't. I'd think of the vehicle sensors whilst gunning as an almighty big smartlink.

Not really. sensor-supported fires adds dice, too, but that isn't mutually exclusive to a smartlink.

so if you're standing in the back of a technical fireing a LMG from a pintle mount bolted to the roof of the truck, but the gun is not smartlinked and not connected electronicly to the vehicles sensors, do u use the gunnery skill or the heavy weapon skill?

what if you're just shooting a pistol out the window?

in either case, if you are using the gunnery skill, why/how would the control rig add dice to the pool?

if you are jumpped into hot or cold sim, which is full immersion VR with RAS override where your body is immobilized and your visual cortex only sees virtual reality feed, why/how could a smartlink become involved in a gunnery test?

A smartlink is a balistic computer. It calculates trajectory using the information it can gather itself (rangefinder, angle of gun sensors, etc) and displays the projected impact on your field of vision. While rigging, the process is the same, however, sensor suies generally have much better information than the smartlink systems and should in theory (though not mechanically) provide a larger bonus when two communicate.

or it could simply be that the smartlink interface with the sensory system to add more data to its calculations...

As other have mentioned:

Gunnery is a 'vehicle skill' so if you are jumped in, then Control Rig gives your +2 to gunnery tests.


Smartlink.

The requirements are a smartgun and a display link. Personally I see nothing stopping a smartgun weapon from giving your the +2. If all you sense are being fed via VR, seems like you certainly got the display link which is the other half of the requirement.