Who sustains a spell cast by a ritual group? The entire group, the leader, or can anyone in the group opt to take sustaining duty?
Full Version: Ritual Magic Sustaining
Hmm would really ahve to read the rules, since ritual magic never been used in my games for a long-term sustained spell...
But my first guess the 'leader' but it is also only sustainable while everyone is in the ritual.
(Note: the above is my 'gut call' and may be no way reflected by the rules)
But my first guess the 'leader' but it is also only sustainable while everyone is in the ritual.
(Note: the above is my 'gut call' and may be no way reflected by the rules)
I ask because it doesn't seem to be covered in the rules. I lean towards the leader too, but having the ritual ongoing seems odd.
Well think back to the coyote dance.
Where they dancing days to cast (or sustain) the effects.
If it takes a pile of people (in special circumstances) to gather the energy can one person 'hold those energies'
To me rituals are all about alot of people and big effects (or moderate effects punching through big defenses).
To me (anyways) a ritual casting the 'ritual / ritual group' in effect becomes the caster. Anything disrupts it and the ritual is over.
If the ritual is over then the spell is over.
Now I think I WOULD allow a ritual spell to be cast using a proper sustaining focus. Which would allow the people to possibly leave but if the ritual area was disturbed then it fails.
Otherwise think of it this way.
200 NAN shamans get together.
Leader ritual magic buffs a Wildcat to god like stats (with the help of 200 casters). Leader steps sustains maybe 2 spells (-4 ain't that bad).
Leader then join next ritual as support (should be helping atleast minorly even with -4) and next shaman is 'leader' casts and buffs next.
(rotate until all eligible 'leaders' have done their thing)
If A person can sustain what it takes 200 people to cast... there is a problem.
Where they dancing days to cast (or sustain) the effects.
If it takes a pile of people (in special circumstances) to gather the energy can one person 'hold those energies'
To me rituals are all about alot of people and big effects (or moderate effects punching through big defenses).
To me (anyways) a ritual casting the 'ritual / ritual group' in effect becomes the caster. Anything disrupts it and the ritual is over.
If the ritual is over then the spell is over.
Now I think I WOULD allow a ritual spell to be cast using a proper sustaining focus. Which would allow the people to possibly leave but if the ritual area was disturbed then it fails.
Otherwise think of it this way.
200 NAN shamans get together.
Leader ritual magic buffs a Wildcat to god like stats (with the help of 200 casters). Leader steps sustains maybe 2 spells (-4 ain't that bad).
Leader then join next ritual as support (should be helping atleast minorly even with -4) and next shaman is 'leader' casts and buffs next.
(rotate until all eligible 'leaders' have done their thing)
If A person can sustain what it takes 200 people to cast... there is a problem.
Except ritual spellcasting is just, basically, a way to cast magic without a direct line of sight. It doesn't mean that you have to churn out the kind of magic that was done in the GGD, which caused volcanoes to explode.
In fact, in SR3, the example was a small group of shamans casting a control emotions (or something similar -- I remember it was mind-effecting) spell on a corporate slag so he wouldn't start development on an area. Without opening my book, I'd guess that the leader soaks drain, or can be channeled into a focus.
As for the GGD stuff? Those were imperfect spells cast on a freakin' huge level that measured its drain in lives. It was basically blood magic and had some very negative effects that aren't exactly elaborated on in the main books. Not all ritual magic is like that. In fact, I'd go so far as to say next to none of it is.
In fact, in SR3, the example was a small group of shamans casting a control emotions (or something similar -- I remember it was mind-effecting) spell on a corporate slag so he wouldn't start development on an area. Without opening my book, I'd guess that the leader soaks drain, or can be channeled into a focus.
As for the GGD stuff? Those were imperfect spells cast on a freakin' huge level that measured its drain in lives. It was basically blood magic and had some very negative effects that aren't exactly elaborated on in the main books. Not all ritual magic is like that. In fact, I'd go so far as to say next to none of it is.
Dissonance:
Honestly haven't looked over SR4 much in ritual magic.
Do the 'helpers' still contribute to the sucess (adding dice) if they do they are part of the magic.
If 'nice' I would say all of them have to sustain but 'could leave the ritual'.
If not so nice, it is sustained only so long as they maintain the ritual. (although if several working together not that hard for atleast one to have a sustaininf foci to contribue to hold the ritual).
GGD was an extreme but it was ritual magic.
Most ritual magic is on a far lesser scale, but still comes down to if 3 people can contribute to a spell sucess and only one sustain it... then mage groups / cabals / etc just got a very large boost in power.
Honestly haven't looked over SR4 much in ritual magic.
Do the 'helpers' still contribute to the sucess (adding dice) if they do they are part of the magic.
If 'nice' I would say all of them have to sustain but 'could leave the ritual'.
If not so nice, it is sustained only so long as they maintain the ritual. (although if several working together not that hard for atleast one to have a sustaininf foci to contribue to hold the ritual).
GGD was an extreme but it was ritual magic.
Most ritual magic is on a far lesser scale, but still comes down to if 3 people can contribute to a spell sucess and only one sustain it... then mage groups / cabals / etc just got a very large boost in power.
Okay. Since I've got nothing better to do with my time right now (argh, infinite-mode on Dead Rising), I went ahead and grabbed my copy of SR4. Your Mileage May Vary with Street Magic, as I haven't got that one, yet.
In base SR4, a ritual magic group is limited by the lesser of either:
1) The rating of the magical lodge
2) The lowest Ritual Spellcasting (not regular spellcasting, ritual is its own thing) skill in the group.
All members must be of the same tradition and must all know the spell.
A member of the team or a /bound/ spirit must be used as a spotter if the target is not visible.
Helpers roll the same pool as the leader, and their successes are added to the dice pool, not directly added as successes.
All members of the team must resist the drain, including the spotter. The spell can be sustained with a -2 modifier, but that's the part that leads to confusion, as it's not clear about who gets smacked with it.
After re-reading this, I'd say that everybody gets the modifier after the ritual is over, as they all get the drain.
In base SR4, a ritual magic group is limited by the lesser of either:
1) The rating of the magical lodge
2) The lowest Ritual Spellcasting (not regular spellcasting, ritual is its own thing) skill in the group.
All members must be of the same tradition and must all know the spell.
A member of the team or a /bound/ spirit must be used as a spotter if the target is not visible.
Helpers roll the same pool as the leader, and their successes are added to the dice pool, not directly added as successes.
All members of the team must resist the drain, including the spotter. The spell can be sustained with a -2 modifier, but that's the part that leads to confusion, as it's not clear about who gets smacked with it.
After re-reading this, I'd say that everybody gets the modifier after the ritual is over, as they all get the drain.
| QUOTE |
| After re-reading this, I'd say that everybody gets the modifier after the ritual is over, as they all get the drain. |
That's not a bad conclusion, and I like it because it's one derived from the rules. Gotcha, and thanks for the input.
As far as all this Ghost Dance talk and "200" shamans buffing someone, remember that in SR4 spellcasting successes are limited by the Force of the spell, no matter how many people are in your ritual. With Great Ritual metamagic you can get those 200 magicians working together, but unless you cast a Force 50 spell, it's not going to do you any good. And of course you'll need a ritual leader with Magic 25 and 200 magicians willing to (unquestionably) die in the casting to pull it off.
Given the force/successes cap, big rituals are really only helpful to overcome big dice penalties. And the only dice penalties I can think of that ever apply to ritual spellcasting are the SM penalties for sympathetic and symbolic links. At the very worst you'll only need to overcome a -8 dice pool modifier for symbolic link made by someone not in the ritual.
So the only real utility of Great Ritual is when you've got one badass ritual leader, one badass with Great Ritual, and a whole lot of very bad scrub magicians to try to make up the rest of your dice pool. Whether you've got 6-8 crack magicians limited by the regular ritual rules or hundreds of third raters using Great Ritual, the force cap is going to stop you the same way.
Given the force/successes cap, big rituals are really only helpful to overcome big dice penalties. And the only dice penalties I can think of that ever apply to ritual spellcasting are the SM penalties for sympathetic and symbolic links. At the very worst you'll only need to overcome a -8 dice pool modifier for symbolic link made by someone not in the ritual.
So the only real utility of Great Ritual is when you've got one badass ritual leader, one badass with Great Ritual, and a whole lot of very bad scrub magicians to try to make up the rest of your dice pool. Whether you've got 6-8 crack magicians limited by the regular ritual rules or hundreds of third raters using Great Ritual, the force cap is going to stop you the same way.
IIRC, the Great Ghost Dance was a Blood Magic ritual. Because it used willing donors, it was not considered twisted magic. In earlier editions, the blood magic rules could allow to cast higher force spells (or was it that earlier edititions didn't stop you from casting a Force 100 spell with a Magic of 2?) and so accounted for how the Great Ghost Dance could be performed.
In SR4, there isn't really an established mechanic for performing a Great Ghost Dance, which, IMO, is how it should be. Daniel Howling Coyote just knew the Plot Device metamagic technique.
In SR4, there isn't really an established mechanic for performing a Great Ghost Dance, which, IMO, is how it should be. Daniel Howling Coyote just knew the Plot Device metamagic technique.
| QUOTE (Cabral) |
| IIRC, the Great Ghost Dance was a Blood Magic ritual. Because it used willing donors, it was not considered twisted magic. In earlier editions, the blood magic rules could allow to cast higher force spells (or was it that earlier edititions didn't stop you from casting a Force 100 spell with a Magic of 2?) and so accounted for how the Great Ghost Dance could be performed. In SR4, there isn't really an established mechanic for performing a Great Ghost Dance, which, IMO, is how it should be. Daniel Howling Coyote just knew the Plot Device metamagic technique. |
in previous editions, you were not limited to force successes on all spells. some spells were limited to force successes, i think (or some similar effect), but many spells were not.
in any event, you could (theoretically) cast a force 100 spell with magic 2 in SR3 at least. however, i think it would take 100 karma to know a spell at force 100 iirc.
and as far as success caps in SR4, all it takes is for the leader to spend a point of edge, and all bets are off =D
oh, and in earlier editions (as in the present edition, if i remember correctly from street magic) blood magic allows you to reduce drain by inflicting injuries. so, it didn't let you cast higher force spells, per se, but it did let you *survive* the casting of higher force spells =P
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| in any event, you could (theoretically) cast a force 100 spell with magic 2 in SR3 at least. however, i think it would take 100 karma to know a spell at force 100 iirc. |
Not entirely true, you could always attempt a Quest Rating 100 Astral Quest to learn it for free. Of course, even if they could get past the Dweller, the quest would at least incapacitate them (unless they are luckier than sin). However, on the subject of SR3, those who want to can use it for precedence here.
Pages 38-39 of Magic in the Shadows states that the team can continue sustaining the spell. Doing so means that all members of the team must keep sustaining and can take no other magical activities while doing so. Should any member drop the spell, the entire thing goes. The team members do not need to remain near each other; they may go about their mundane activities normally (with the sustaining penalties, mind you).
Furthermore, an elemental can be used to sustain the spell, as if it were cast normally (ie - non ritually). There is no corresponding mention of sustaining foci.
An extra option that could be very useful when used properly was that the built up energies of the ritual could be used to sustain a spell for some time. This was done by withholding dice from the tests required to perform ritual magic. The spell would then be sustained for a number of hours equal to the withheld dice multiplied by the ritual leader's magic rating.
Has anybody experimented with allowing that last option in SR4? If so, was it balanced, or did it cause problems?
Okay, some more Ritual Spellcasting questions.
Can a spell cast with ritual spellcasting be Quickened and who pays the karma cost?
Can a ritual spell be Anchored, and who pays the karma cost? If a Anchoring focus is being used, who does it need to be bound to? The leader or anyone in the group?
Can a spell cast with ritual spellcasting be Quickened and who pays the karma cost?
Can a ritual spell be Anchored, and who pays the karma cost? If a Anchoring focus is being used, who does it need to be bound to? The leader or anyone in the group?
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