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Tarantula
Just a question and I couldn't find any answers directly to yes or no with the books. If an adept possesses both rooting and wall running, can the adept run up a wall, and then use the rooting power to effectively remain in place where he stopped at until he decides to deactivate the rooting power?
Zen Shooter01
The descriptions of the powers in question (pg. 179-180, Street Magic) suggest no.

First, Wall Running is a very limited power. Hits on a Strength + Running test give the number of meters the character may run up or along a vertical surface. Even if you're throwing ten dice the average is only three hits - so now you're three meters up the wall and in gravity's cruel domain. Wall Running does not allow you to stop, start, hang out and have a pastry. You run up, you come down pretty quick, one way or another.

At a cost of 1 power point, I wonder that it wouldn't be better to buy Improved Climbing Ability 4 instead.

Second, Rooting doesn't make you into a literally immovable object. It just adds a number of dice equal to its rating to any attempt to resist being moved against the PCs will.

So, a PC standing on a vertical wall so that he is perpendicular to the floor normally rolls 0 dice to remain in that spot. If the PC has Rooting 5, he rolls 0+5, for a total of five dice.

Planet Earth exerts its Gravity ability with a conservative estimate of 100 dice, and the PC loses.
venenum
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
So, a PC standing on a vertical wall so that he is perpendicular to the floor normally rolls 0 dice to remain in that spot. If the PC has Rooting 5, he rolls 0+5, for a total of five dice.

Planet Earth exerts its Gravity ability with a conservative estimate of 100 dice, and the PC loses.

So this means i can fly yay. See the the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy for the defention.

If the the earth seccededs and i critically glitch i can fly so horooh for for ignore the laws of the natural world.
HullBreach
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
Planet Earth exerts its Gravity ability with a conservative estimate of 100 dice, and the PC loses.

Can the earth use Edge on that?
toturi
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
The descriptions of the powers in question (pg. 179-180, Street Magic) suggest no.

First, Wall Running is a very limited power. Hits on a Strength + Running test give the number of meters the character may run up or along a vertical surface. Even if you're throwing ten dice the average is only three hits - so now you're three meters up the wall and in gravity's cruel domain. Wall Running does not allow you to stop, start, hang out and have a pastry. You run up, you come down pretty quick, one way or another.

At a cost of 1 power point, I wonder that it wouldn't be better to buy Improved Climbing Ability 4 instead.

Second, Rooting doesn't make you into a literally immovable object. It just adds a number of dice equal to its rating to any attempt to resist being moved against the PCs will.

So, a PC standing on a vertical wall so that he is perpendicular to the floor normally rolls 0 dice to remain in that spot. If the PC has Rooting 5, he rolls 0+5, for a total of five dice.

Planet Earth exerts its Gravity ability with a conservative estimate of 100 dice, and the PC loses.

The sun exerts an equal 100 dice to keep you there. So 105-100 = 5. You stay.
Tarantula
To pick your post apart bit by bit:

QUOTE ("Zen Shooter01")
The descriptions of the powers in question (pg. 179-180, Street Magic) suggest no.

First, Wall Running is a very limited power. Hits on a Strength + Running test give the number of meters the character may run up or along a vertical surface. Even if you're throwing ten dice the average is only three hits - so now you're three meters up the wall and in gravity's cruel domain. Wall Running does not allow you to stop, start, hang out and have a pastry.

QUOTE ("SR4 Street Magic @ Pg 180")
Attempts to run up longer distances require stops or landings and additional uses of Wall Running.

So, "stops" means you can't stop? Even if running up longer distances requires it?

QUOTE ("Zen Shooter01")
You run up, you come down pretty quick, one way or another.

Sure, if you're only considering wall running, but with rooting, why should you have to come back down?

QUOTE ("Zen Shooter01")
At a cost of 1 power point, I wonder that it wouldn't be better to buy Improved Climbing Ability 4 instead.

Running is a helluva lot faster than climbing.

QUOTE ("Zen Shooter01")
Second, Rooting doesn't make you into a literally immovable object. It just adds a number of dice equal to its rating to any attempt to resist being moved against the PCs will.

Hows that?
QUOTE ("SR4 @ Street Magic, Pg 179")
By taking a Simple Action, an adept with the Rooting power can become an immovable object.

As well as:
QUOTE ("SR4 @ Street Magic, Pg 179")
While rooted, the character cannot move at all from where he stands.


Sounds fairly immovable to me.

QUOTE ("Zen Shooter01")
So, a PC standing on a vertical wall so that he is perpendicular to the floor normally rolls 0 dice to remain in that spot. If the PC has Rooting 5, he rolls 0+5, for a total of five dice.

Planet Earth exerts its Gravity ability with a conservative estimate of 100 dice, and the PC loses.


Example completely irrelevant, so I'm going to ignore it.



Now that I've gotten quotes, frankly, if you're running up a wall, stop, you are then standing on the wall, even if only momentarily, if you then take a simple action to engage your rooting, you are then stuck to the wall and unable to move your legs until you disengage your rooting power, at which point, you would begin falling back towards ground.

Can someone give me some arguements for and/or against this as to how it would be game breaking, or rules for or against it?
cyberdozer
There are examples of Rooting and Wall Running available to you now. Take a look at Jackie Chan or Tony Jaa flicks - they both employ Wall Running to a great degree in their films. I am not talking about the wire-fighting, but the times when they scale a wall much taller than themselves by scrambling up a corner or using two opposing walls. For an example of rooting, watch just about any Kung Fu movie and there should be an example; One warrior resists the other's powerful attacks (the ones that caused him to fly backwards earlier in the fight) by rooting himself and shrugging off the blows. Tony Jaa does that in Ong Bak, when he is fighting the steriod-crazed henchmen underneath the Buddha statue in the cave at the end of the movie.

The inclusion of these powers strikes me as an attempt to provide a means for an Adept to do those same kinds of things we see in the movies while we are running the shadows. Perhaps Chan, Jaa, Jet Li, and the other martial artists who do their own stunts were actually latent Adepts in the not-so distant parallel past of 2071.

I have to agree with Zen Shooter01. Most Physical Dept powers empower your own body, but do not metamorphose it to a degree where Rooting would actually cause you to hold fast on a vertical or ceiling surface. That is what Gecko Tape is for, right? wink.gif
FanGirl
Tarantula, read the description again and you'll see that Zen's shooter's example is not irrelevant. The fact that the adept has to roll dice to avoid being "moved against his will" means that he can indeed be moved against his will. Think of a Rooted adept as a sticker: if you put him on a surface, he will stay there, but you can peel the sticker off the surface if you apply the necessary forces. In this case, gravity is the necessary force required to unstick the adept. Remember, adept powers only allow you to bend the laws of physics, not shatter them.
Toshiaki
If we're going to go into Kung Fu movies, then we also have cases where Rooting was used to keep them stuck to the wall. The Lizard from Five Deadly Venoms comes to mind for me.
Zen Shooter01
Kung Fu movies are not made with adherence to SR4 rules in mind. Just because it's in a movie somewhere doesn't mean it's possible in SR4.

Tarantula:
The description of Wall Running reads "Attempts to run up longer distances require stops or landings and additional uses of Wall Running". Because Wall Running requires a Strength+Running test, uses of it require a simple action (per "Using Running", pg. 117). So, you take a simple action to make the test, score four hits, run four meters up a wall, end your phase. The rules are ambiguous, but arguably you could make two consecutive simple Wall Running actions; but allowing that would have ramifications for the other uses of Running skill, as well. In any case, if you're still standing on a vertical surface when your action phase comes to an end, gravity gets you.

What "stops and landings" means is that if you run up the wall and end your action phase hanging onto a light fixture, you can use Wall Running again on your next action phase. But if you're not hanging onto something or standing on a horizontal surface when your phase ends, gravity gets you.

You are right that Wall Running will cover more distance more quickly than Climbing. But Climbing doesn't have to make pit stops like Wall Running does.

You quote the Rooting power description, but you do not quote the lines that state that Rooting adds a number of dice equal to its rating to any attempt by the adept to resist being moved against his will. It clearly does not make the adept literally immovable. Do you suppose that the power is meant to allow an adept to hold a freight train in place by Rooting in front of it? That the adept "cannot move at all from where he stands" in context clearly means that the adept may not walk, run or otherwise voluntarily move while using Rooting.




Frag-o Delux
Does everyone here play that when the persons pass is through they instantly stop moving? I agree that once the person stops running at top speed gravity will get them. But I would also make it where the PC would have to continue to make constent top speed, if he slows down the power stops. Sure he could run up an entire house or up 4 or 5 stories of an office building, but hes going to tire quickly. I mean we use to run hills in footbal practice, thats a lot harder then running on flat land. I couldnt imagine how hard it would be to run vertically away from gravity.

I have always pictured Rooting like in those kung fu movies, or like those spoiled brats in the mall when mom says no and he falls to the floor and turns his body into dead weight. Sure moments ago mom had no trouble picking him up when he wanted to be carried. But now his limp body is a pain in the ass just to sit it up.
Zen Shooter01
The description of the Wall Running power states, "attempts to run up longer distances require stops or landings", my italics.
Frag-o Delux
Longer then one phase or Initiative pass (what ever they are calling it in SR4)?
ShadowDragon
I'd allow a root just for the coolness factor (now I'm sounding like emo samuri lol), but with the condition that it only lasts for 1 IP, and that you need at least 1 success on the root test. Failure means you fall, but can land safely with an acrobatics test provided you're not too high; glitches and critical glitches make it less likely that you'll fall safely.
Tarantula
QUOTE ("Zen Shooter01")
The description of Wall Running reads "Attempts to run up longer distances require stops or landings and additional uses of Wall Running". Because Wall Running requires a Strength+Running test, uses of it require a simple action (per "Using Running", pg. 117).
Heres where you start going wrong. It says it requires a strength+running test. It doesn't reference "Using Running" nor does it say it takes a simple action.

QUOTE ("Zen Shooter01")
So, you take a simple action to make the test, score four hits, run four meters up a wall, end your phase.

More accurately would be "You make your wall running test, score four hits, and run four meters up a wall, using up your movement for the phase."
QUOTE ("Zen Shooter01")
The rules are ambiguous, but arguably you could make two consecutive simple Wall Running actions; but allowing that would have ramifications for the other uses of Running skill, as well.

What other rammifications for the other uses of Running would it have? You can already make 2 running tests per turn to add to the meters you're able to run. Theres even fatigue damage rules for extended periods of running.


QUOTE ("Zen Shooter01")
In any case, if you're still standing on a vertical surface when your action phase comes to an end, gravity gets you.

What "stops and landings" means is that if you run up the wall and end your action phase hanging onto a light fixture, you can use Wall Running again on your next action phase. But if you're not hanging onto something or standing on a horizontal surface when your phase ends, gravity gets you.

So, if hanging on a light fixture is ok as a "stop". Could an adept with gliding, and wall running hook a rope to a ceiling directly above him. Run up the rope with wall running (up to the hits on his success test, limited by his magic since gliding limits distance you can run by magic), then grab onto the rope, allowing him a stopping point, and repeat every action to go up very quickly? Throw in traceless walk, and its completely quiet too.

QUOTE ("Zen Shooter01")
You are right that Wall Running will cover more distance more quickly than Climbing. But Climbing doesn't have to make pit stops like Wall Running does.

You quote the Rooting power description, but you do not quote the lines that state that Rooting adds a number of dice equal to its rating to any attempt by the adept to resist being moved against his will. It clearly does not make the adept literally immovable. Do you suppose that the power is meant to allow an adept to hold a freight train in place by Rooting in front of it? That the adept "cannot move at all from where he stands" in context clearly means that the adept may not walk, run or otherwise voluntarily move while using Rooting.

You're right. I didn't quote the part regarding dice rolled to resist movement. Please quote for me where in the book it states how many dice to roll for the earths gravity and its effect on things.

In regards to your freight train example, I'd treat the adept as a barrier with a rating equal to his body, and use the vehicles and barrier rules.



Since the rules are obviously ambiguous in this regard, How is allowing an adept that has spent 2 of his power points on this overpowered or game breaking? I could just as easily buy ¥250 gecko tape gloves and acheive the same effect, and only spend 1 power point. Is there an underlying reason you're against it?
Dissonance
What if you activate rooting and succeed? Do you then have to make a strength test to avoid smashing your face in against the wall?
cyberdozer
QUOTE
Kung Fu movies are not made with adherence to SR4 rules in mind. Just because it's in a movie somewhere doesn't mean it's possible in SR4.


I totally agree. My point was surmising that those same King Fu movies might have been an inspiration of some of the powers in Street Magic. Furthermore, I thought including some examples from that genre would help illustrate what exactly the limitations of those specific powers might be as part of this discussion.

I never meant to advocate that there should be powers out there which allows the Adept to get away from a bad situation by forming a tornado and spinning away, or for making a cloth sash into a super-deadly weapon of mass destruction.
Zen Shooter01
Tarantula:

I'm against it because the rules don't support it. It's clear in the description of Wall Running that it's not meant to turn the adept into Spiderman.

The "Using Running" section governs the use of the running skill. A Strength + Running test is a use of the running skill.

I would permit the combination of Wall Running and Gliding with the rope that you suggest, but I would require a Climbing test every time the adept was just hanging by the rope.
Inu
Another option: 'rooting' might not let the wall runner stop and hang, but it might give them enough 'hang time' to change direction, or leap away from the wall, or something like that. Think Prince of Persia. smile.gif
Cabral
If you want to hang around, be a Mystic Adept and take Gecko Crawl ...

Gecko Man. Gecko Man. Does whatever a Gecko can ...
Tarantula
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
Tarantula:

I'm against it because the rules don't support it. It's clear in the description of Wall Running that it's not meant to turn the adept into Spiderman.

The "Using Running" section governs the use of the running skill. A Strength + Running test is a use of the running skill.

I would permit the combination of Wall Running and Gliding with the rope that you suggest, but I would require a Climbing test every time the adept was just hanging by the rope.

The "Using running" section does govern the use of the running skill. However, if they had wanted standard running rules to apply they would have said "The adept makes a Running Test." In SR4 pg 117-8, it says "Characters with the Running skill may attempt to increase the distance they can run by spending a Simple Action and making a Running Test."

Skill tests are defined as being skill + linked attribute, so there is no need to spell it out as was done in the adept power unless it was intended to not be related to the standard running test, and is instead a different use that uses its own rules as defined by the power.

Why would you have them use a climbing test? Wouldn't a reaction + strength test be more appropriate, since they aren't using the rope to actually climb with? Since thats what is allowed on a glitch with a climbing test to avoid falling.
cx2
It could be argued that if someone was running up the wall then stopped they were never actually at any point standing on the wall. You would go from running to falling with no interrim state, other than that possibly of your body rotating such that your head goes down first.

4 metres would still be in the region of 13 feet 4 inches, which is a fair distance. It's as high as many free standing walls I've encountered in RL, and it's reasonable that this was not expected to be a substitute for climbing.

As for rules reasons, you mean other than it makes the whole act of climbing worthless?
Moon-Hawk
Here's how I would handle it: Make your wall running attempt as normal. Good. Now you're up a wall. Make a climbing test to hold on. Apply rooting as a bonus. (only useful if you're trying to stick to one spot, not crawl along) With the bonus from rooting, you can probably stick to a sheer wall like a cartoon ninja. From here, you're not in a position to wall run again, so you either have to jump off or down or climb as normal (without rooting)
This lets people run up a wall, stick for arbitrary time, and jump off (like a crazy ninja) but is still pretty limiting.
YMMV
Bira
The "gravity using 100 dice" thing strikes me as a bit silly. If an adept really wants to stand on a wall for a long period of time, I'd have him roll the normal rooting test against a number of dice equal to his Body - the character is basically fighting his own weight, so this is not a smart thing for a troll to do.

And I would allow the Wall Running + Rooting combination to work - Rooting would allow the adept to stop for just long enough to make another Wall Running test on his next action. I wouldn't require a test for Rooting unless the character actually stops running (i.e., stops spending Simple Actions to use Wall Running).
Zen Shooter01
The hundred dice of gravity line was a joke. nyahnyah.gif
Bira
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
The hundred dice of gravity line was a joke. nyahnyah.gif

It's hard to tell over the Internet smile.gif.
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