Yes.

Only the variants, the main strand needs a target with an Essence of 0.

Only if they stole samples from the Ordo Maximus.

What exactly do you mean by this?

Also, if you can reduce someone's essence to 0, do you know if an injection would then work, or do you need the supernatural powers of a Vampire?

Haha! I could get away with that pretty easily, luckily, since neither the PCs or the players will have any knowledge.

Dread Polack

The Ordo Maximus is a secret orginisation of vampires in GB that try to create new variants with better abilities by modifying the virus.
(..thus being able to take over the world, yaddayadda, see Threats)

That sort of research is performed by them, too.

My memory of the infection rules is pretty vague, but didn't the creation of vampiric pawns (a/k/a 'Renfields') involve infecting live hosts?

Casting my Thread Resurrection spell... but HMHVV is a SR topic I would dearly like to have more setting info

I assume that the question involves "true" HMHVV, i.e. the variant causing vampirism, wendigoism, and the like, admittedly the most interesting occurrence

For all we know, HMHVV is the virus equivalent of the genes that make one a metahuman, or grant the magician or (mystic) adept status: i.e. a piece of mundane DNA or RNA that by means of its tridimensional structure happens to channel mana from the astral to cause specific magical effects in the host: kind of a biological focus, so to speak. Again, for all we know, HMHVV is the Awakened form of a mundane blood virus (likely a retrovirus) that has been around for a long time, but when the mana level rises enough, activates its hidden vampiric properties. It also seems that medieval legends of vampiric would be due to the temporary mini-Awakening little bump of the mana wave that occurred then, making some activation here and there feasible. It also appears that the magical mutagenic powers of the virus do not take hold unless the body is not twisted out of its basic holistic integrity so badly as to be on the brink of death. Of course, this leaves the question of how the first vampires appeared after the Awakening: it is likely that some people who were affected by the mundane form of the disease at the time happened to be on the brink of death, and whammo... they instead rose as vampires, wendigoes, banshees, etc. Judging from its behavior, it seems likely that the mundanev form of the HMHVV is some form of leukemia-inducing or immunosuppressive retrovirus, although a case might also be done for some variant of rabies.

It follows that there is no reason why it should not be possible to keep viable and active samples of the virus in storage. At least it should be possible to keep blood and tissue samples from the Infected in frozen storage, and it should also be possible to purify the virus from them. As for being able to replicate it, it depends on whether it is possible to cultivate it in a lab, likely with human tissue samples, since HMHVV appears to be strictly limited to the (meta)human host. For many virii, it is feasible. But sure, viable and active samples of HMHVV should exist in some SR labs, most likely the ones that study its features, possible cures, and military/longevity applications.

As for contracting it from injection, sure... as long as your Essence happens to be hovering to 0 at the time. So no way if your holistic balance is basically in the black at the time. However, if cyber or drug abuse or nasty spirit attack did the trick, congrats you 're the new Count(ess) Dracula on the block. If the virus manages to integrate in the genome of a healthy host, it might subsequently activate if the host's Essence is fully drained. As for accidental contact, provided the Essence caveat is satisfied, sure, as long as the virus comes in contact with an open wound; maybe a mucose, too, it depends on the virus' resilience in open environment and its virulence (how long it stays active outside of proper storage and how good it is to overcome the host's surface protection).

I would expect samples of HMHVV to be quite sellable on the black market. After all, apart from pacts with Free Spirits, it is the only other reliable way of indefinite longevity, since even leonization fails after enough iterations. So I would expect people of means and with ruthless morality (is there any other type in the shadows ?) to be quite interested in buying immortality in a syringe. After all, all it takes is draining some Essence from a random "donor" once a month, and being somewhat discreet about one's nature. And besides immortality, HMHVV comes with substantial magical innate magical powers, and the only reliable way to Awaken later in life if you didn't luck it on the genetic lottery.

Apart from the recurrent debate on whether PC vampires or wendigoes should be allowed, I still expect that in the SR setting, plenty of NPCs would be quite interested and eager to get Infected as an easy ticket to immortality and power. And would hire shadowrunners to procure HMHVV samples. Although, admittedly, there would not be strict need to raid labs. Just locate some Infected character, either bargain with him, or overpower him, and get some blood or tissue sample, and you are in business. Actually, I expect selling the "Dark Blessing", so to speak, to be a money and favor source for many Infected characters in the shadows. Given the rather ruthless nature of SR society, I expect that many would not bat an eye about the HMHVV-induced dietary requirements. It is not that much different from performing wetwork runs, AKA assassinations, for a living. Allergy to sunlight ? Bah, nothing a quickened Alleviate Allergy spell couldn't counter. And it isn't like Moderate Allergy will ever kill you in any case. Wood and Iron ? Just avoid them.

All that it takes, if you just have the virus and not the collaboration of an actual vampire/wendigo/banshee, is to bring yourself at Essence 0 by some means as you inject HMHVV.

As a matter of fact, as it concerns the speculative origin of HMHVV, IMO it appears to give so many immortality/magical empowerment benefits to its host, that I strongly suspect it was first developed long ago during the last age of magic, as a partially successful techno-magical genetic engineering way to immortality and empowerment. Either involving some crafty Horror's assistance, some cackling, talented Theran Mad Wizard, or both.

If you inject HMHVV in a cyberzombie, all you obtain is a vanilla vampire/wendigo/banshee as the character painfully expells all the cyberware and regenerates missing body parts. The cyberzombie scenario actually is a quite viable way of creating a vampire if you just have a virus sample on hand and lack the cooperation of an Essence-draining critter. Best to use basic, unexpensive cyber to do the trick, although. Hyper-cybered vampire monsters cannot exist: either it is a vanilla Infected, or a cyberzombie. It might be possible to keep geneware, at most.

As for the non-viability bit, as I said, it may be that the HMHVV proves impossible to cultivate in a lab, but it should always be possible to purify and store it by refrigerating it, or the blood/tissue samples of the host. By itself, HMHVV is a pretty mundane assemble of DNA/RNA and proteins. Nothing mystical about it. It's when it integrates with the genome of a 0-Essence host that things get interesting.

Actually, a character who gains the regeneration power after obtaining cyberware keeps all of the cyberware. This is true in the case of vampires and people who use Immortal Flower. Things that you pay for with essence are considered to be a part of you as far as the magic is concerned. Shapeshifters and uncybered vamps get screwed because they can't pay for new cyberware at all. The regeneration won't let it integrate. But vampires who have spend essence on cyberware before infection can and do keep the 'ware.

There is a great deal of arguement over this but contronversy can't change the fact that there have been cybered vampires in canon.

Cyberzombies are generally immune to Infection because the vampire can't kill the cyberzombie with essence drain, at least this is who I would rule it is accordance with the wording of the Infection power. The vampire must kill the target with the essence drain power.

I wasn't referring to your post. Rather, I was referring to generic vampires.

loup-garous do have (or had) the Pestilence power which is far worse then Infection. In fact, the loup garou is both the easiest and the most reliable way of turning a PC into a NPC.
HMHVV-2 spreads very easily and the attack dog idea is pretty good.

While I'm aware that there's enough theoretical justification for allowing vampires to keep previous cyberware, as you state the workings of regeneration have been a rather controversial topic, given the dearth of extensive rules for Infected characters in all editions. Personally, I deem the "regeneration removes all ware" ruling to be preferred since it makes regeneration work as a unified whole in all kinds of critters, and gives a better handle on Infected characters in perspective: as you suggest, the combination of cyberware, magic, and innate vampiric powers makes a horrible mess, both from a game balance and from power interaction (the mere thought of a cybered vampire going mist form gives me bad headaches) whereas disallowing 'ware and only allowing the combination of innate critter powers and magic makes them rather more viable as NPC and PCs in a high-powered game.

The presence of cybered vampires in fiction means really little. Fiction has been so consistently contradictory and conflicting with rule-books that its value for adjudicating rule issues is very questionable at best.

As it concerns using the Infection Power on cyberzombies and whatnot, I have to remark that's not directly relevant on our issue, since we are discussing the use of HMHVV samples to infect someone in the lack of an actual Infected character doing the deal. However, we know that SR vampirism is not a direct magical effect (spell or spirit power), rather it is a genetic effect that causes magical changes, very much like goblinization. It follows from that and reasoning about the general nature of virus that administering viable HMHVV to a 0-Essence character would vampirize her. Morevero, if you really wish to use SR fiction as evidence, you have plenty of characters vampirized by HMHVV administration there

Moreover, it is my best reasoned interpretation of the Essence Drain and Infection power rules, plus the fact that HMHVV is a virus and not a magical effect, that the Infection power actually isn't anything fully mystical. Essence Drain is a mystic power, as indicated by the fact several spirits have it, too, and it is the prerequisite for creating a vampire, in that it is necessary to bring the subject do to 0-Essence in order for the HMHVV to take root. But it is not necessary that the Drain be done by a vampire: if a wendigo would chance upon a recent victim of a blood or shadow spirit, he could infect it fine.

Rather, the working of the Infected power is actually rather mundane, in that the vampire or wendigo purposefully administers some of his HMHVV-carrying bodily fluids or tissue (most typically, blood or sexual juices) to the victim he or she has just completely Essence-drained. Of course, both the mundane body immunity and the magical holistic body integrity have to be overcome (hence the Body + Willpower roll, and the Magic part of the vampire's roll, since this is an Awakened virus and it has to make magical changes to work). It also seems to be a psychic component at work, as the more the victim "goes with" the infection, the better it takes root (the Charisma part of the Infection roll).

This is actually most consistent both with source fiction (the vampire ripping a wound in his wrist and dropping some blood in the victim's throat), with HMHVV as a virus and the way virus trasmission works, and sensibly it allows for vampirism transmission to be a purposeful choice, instead of an automatic consequence of killing someone with Essence Drain, which would cause the Infected population to quickly skyrocket. IMO this is also consistent with the wording of the Infection power.

It also follows that infection from HMHVV samples, instead of an Infected carrier, is rather less likely to take root, (no magic or psychic induction, i.e. no Magic and Charisma to roll). Proabably a fixed number should be rolled, to represent the viability of the HMHVV sample, which should be treated very much like a material link.

There is also the issue of whether a voluntary Infectee might purposefully forgo to resist the infection: ie. lower the dice pool of his Body + Willpower resistance roll, or even disallow such roll entirely. I deem it so, at least for the Willpower component, and maybe even the Body component, if steps are taken to maximize the chance of infection (i.e. direct IV, large virus doses).

I'm not talking about fiction. I'm talking about an actual goddamn canon adventure. The character is called Nemesis and the adventure book is called Total Eclipse. Its number is FASA 7308.

Cyberware doesn't give vampires an undue advantage under normal circumstances due to the permemant essence loss. The vast majority of their powers are tied to essence, magic rating is tied to essence, and they actually lose 2 essence points for every point of permenant essence loss due to maximum essence being equal to natural essencex2. This keeps things more than balanced.
However, a vampire cyberzombie is something rather odd. It may not have any powers at all due to its extreme essence loss or it may have absurd powers due to the extreme blood magic rituals keeping it alive. Either way it is not something I care to deal with.



As for the nature of the infection power, the Essence Drain and Infection powers are worded in such a way that the characters do not even have to be on the same continent when the transfer takes place. It would be perfectly acceptable for a Wendigo to have his cannibalistic followers to capture someone in another city, butcher them, mail him the meat, and set up a video feed so that the Wendigo can taunt the helpless victim as he cooks at eats his butchered flesh and even across that distance the Wendigo can still choose to infect the guy. This is perfectly allowable by the rules.

However, the wording is very specific on one point.

Notice the phrase "it has drained" as opposed to "that has been drained"

It can be interperated as you choose to but I choose a more literal reading of the rules, that the Infection power is an inherent power of the critter and is tied to the Essence Drain power.

Of course the wording of the power addresses the most common occurrence, that is the critter who infects is the same who drained. And of course the Infection power is inherent to the critter: it brings the HMHVV in its tissues !! However, your interpretation (Infection being a permanent spell-like magical ability akin to rewriting the astral pattern of the subject) would make sense if SR vampirism were wholly mystical in nature, as in the WoD. It isn't so: the books are very clear that it is a viral transmissable disease, an Awakened one, but with mundane biological roots nonetheless. The Essence Drain is spell-like, and it is tied to Infection in that the latter cannot take place as long as the Essence is positive. But Infection is as its name suggests. SR biologists and physicians may isolate the HMHVV genome from a vampire or wendigo's body, so a transmission of biological material carrying the virus must take place. Hence, it stands to no reason that the orginal drain-er, and only him, can "turn" the victim. Rather, it is by far the most common occurrence, since a 0-Essence character may survive a limited time (hours, IIRC). Apart from someone purposefully seeking out HMHVV samples, and then bringing himself or someone else down to 0-Essence by some other means, which is the variant case we were discussing, typically the one who drains is the one who infects (the subject being either willing or unwilling).

That HMHVV is a solid piece of genetic code and not some spell-like mumbo-jumbo is shown by the fact that its effects are strictly tied to the kind of strain and the metatype of the victim: HMHVV-I infection in an ork always created wendigoes, even if the creator is a vampire, and viceversa. A vampire infecting an elf creates a banshee, and so on.

As scholars of religion too well know, a too literal reading of the rules untempered by generous helpings of reasoning creates no end of monsters

Yeah, a mystical critter power magically creating the HMHVV genes in the subject when the Infection power is used *might* be theoretically conceivable given that spells may create permanent food out of mana. However, that's not the way biology and mana generally interact in the SR universe. You goblinize because you have the genes for being an ork or troll, not because the Bad Fairy curses you at birth, and you become a mage because you have the inborn Talent (or get a magical virus that reshapes your genome, see HMHVV). Given that, I find much more reasonable to assume that Infection works just like Pestilence with a 0-Essence prerequisite, rather than claim a wacky and bizarre critter power that works nothing like other typical spells or critter powers, just because the (abysmally scant) SR4 rule and setting coverage does not *explicitly* acknowledge the most reasonable interpretation. Hell, Pestilence is non-existent in SR4 so far. And as a general rule, HMHVV got very, very little decent coverage in all editions.

There would have been a somewhat decent essay on the HMHVV subject, written by Steve Kenson, but it got cut from a SR sourcebook (Dunklezahn's Will) at the last minute for space reasons. Interestingly, it supports my interpretation. Until SR4 (eventually!!) gets to have a critter book with a decent coverage of the HMHVV, it's the best canon evidence we have (at least as good as wacky adventure and fiction references).

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