I have seen some places here and there that mention hacking cyberwere. I can see hacking some ones implanted comlink if it was on, but what could you really do with it.

-- you could access feeds from senseware.
-- mess with what some one see and hears through sound and vision links.
-- normal comlink hacking.
-- hack things the user has connected to his comlink

This all makes sense, but it seems like this could be streched to far. Shouldn't most cyberware be using a DNI, direct neural interface, and shouldn't a DNI be uneffcted by hacking. You shouldn't be able to choke someone to death with there own arm just because you hacked there comlink.

so I guess the questions are:

-- What is an implanted com really connected to.
-- Couldn't the comlink be setup to only accept commands from the DNI of the user. aka trusted computer system.
-- How hard is it to hack a skinlink network.

I am not sure how hacking some ones body would work, but I do know that any comlink I get will have and external power switch so I can turn the thing off if things go bad.

I'm trying to wrap my mind about the sort of things hackers can do to unfortunate people. This is how I have things down in my mind. Do I have this about right?

A hacker is being shot at by some greasy punk. The greasy punk is connected to a comlink with Simsense, has a cyberarm, and Smartlink. The hacker spends a few turns behind cover hacking into the punk's comlink. The hacker can then:

Use the Edit command to remove the hacker from the punks vision.
Use the Command command to eject the clip from his smartlinked gun.
Attack his Smartlink program, trying to shut it down.
Use the Command command on his cyberarm to turn the gun on his own head.
Attack the OS for his Cyberarm, shutting it down untill it has a chance to reboot.
Use the Edit command to make the ganger's buddies running up to help look like Lone Star officers.
If he had Cyberlegs the hacker could use the Command command to make him run away.
If he had Cyber eyes or Ears the hacker could attack their Icon on the Commlink, shutting them down.
If he was running his Commlink simsense with full emotional range the hacker could make him feel frightened of him.

Are these all viable things the hacker could do to this guy? With the cyberware, does the hacker just have to hack into the Commlink or does he have to hit the Commlink and then hack into the arm to attack it there?

I would say you could do the eject the clip, shutdown the Smartlink, Edit to look like Lone Star officers, shutdown the cybereyes/ears, and overload his sim module actions. The other actions that pertain to the cybereyes or cyberlimbs wouldn't work. There isn't any real reason to have your cyberarm or cyberlegs meshed into your network unless you are running diagnostics on them, which usually doesn't happen during combat.

I think that something that is hardwired through DNI, like cybereyes, can't be spoofed/shutdown. It's wireless feed, if it is broadcasting, can be edited or jammed but the cybereyes themselves can't be "turned off". The user wouldn't receive the input from their smartlink but they can still see the target and shoot it. No way would someone broadcast their eye's "command code" so that someone could shut them down. That's why I would say cyberlimbs can't be hacked and turned against their owners, unless the person has them broadcasting wirelessly (which makes no sense) or hooked to their PAN (which also makes no sense unless their are running diagnostics). And even if the cyberlimb gets hacked, the brain has priority input over the wireless input so the person who owns the cyberlimb can simply just turn off wireless function and sever the hacker's attack. This also includes other cyberware that wouldn't even be wireless, such as Wired Reflexes, a tooth compartment or muscle augmentation.

I would give the hackee the chance to use a free action and turn off wireless once they realize their arm is trying to choke them. Once they do, the arm returns to normal because the brain has priority over any other input. IMHO only.

I'm wondering if you'd be able to hack something like a Cyberarm at all, to be completely honest. In modern day networking, if a system doesn't need to be put on a network, it isn't. Plain and simple. Not strictly from a logical/subnet/VLAN isolation, but actually keeping the system physically disconnected from other systems outside of it's network.

What motivation would someone with Cyberware benefit from having the electronic signals from their cyberarm transmit to their comlink? Realistically, probably none. And while -equipment- inside of a cyberarm may be wired into a comlink, that's hardly the same thing as having full run of someone's 'cyberarm', including functions like movement, strength, etc.

-Perhaps- it'd be possible to decipher signals between the cybernetic arm, and brain, if the signals from one line were induced into the wirelessly available line, but what should really be seperating one system, from another, in networked environment like a human being, is the brain itself - Until you can hack someone's brain, you're asking for some serious suspension of disbelief.

The relative security of 'going under the knife' for firmware upgrades or patches, far outweight any benefit of wirelessly downloading them into the isolated systems of cyberware.

Now - Systems that require wireless interaction are a different matter. Having Smartlink wireless Goggles, rather than a hardlined Smartlink, could be hacked, for instance.

But all the rest. Enh. Doubtful. Really doubtful.

For implanted cyberware:

I can easily see eject the clip from a smart weapon, and maybe a loop making any clip inserted immediately drop out of the weapon.

I can also see moving the aiming point off on the smartlink, giving a negative penalty until the user turn off the smartlink.

If you have an implanted Commlink, that can be hacked, as has wireless capability, and hooked up to your DNI system.

Communications with the rest of your team can be hacked.

The problem is that the Direct Neural Interface is precisely that - A direct Neural Interface. I'm not sure how familiar any of you may be with Network Topologies, but the Brain would act similiar to a Router (Layer 3), while the DNI would have traffic passing through the Virtual LANs of a switch (Layer 2).

Layer 2 devices can't talk directly to each other if they are on seperate Virtual Local Area Networks, and must go through a gateway, the Layer 3 device, which is the human brain, in this case.

This Effectively means that different pieces of the same hardware can co-exist in the same 'box', without actually having direct connectivity between them, as they would be logically seperated from each other. If this is a standard security measure -today-, then I can only imagine how much tighter network security can become.

You're operating under the assumption that because the Comlink is physically (Layer 1) connected to a port of the DNI, which is in turn physically connected through a different port, than if you can spoof data packets to one, you can likewise spoof them to another. Unfortunately, that's a false assumption. And this is where things like port specific access-lists come into play, which essentially do the follow: "Your type of traffic belongs here. ALLOWED." - "Your type of traffic does not belong here. DENIED." End of story. And even if you spoofed data packets into a port, past it's access list, you're using input types that are allowed on that port, like wireless input for targetting systems, whereas data packets for something like 'Ejecting a Clip' wouldn't be valid traffic, unless you were able to change the DNI port access lists.

And the reason you can't change the DNI port access lists, is because the DNI management information is kept on yet another logically seperated network, directly interfacing with the brain. Short of physically putting someone under the knife, and altering their firmware, or effectively hacking through their brain, you're up shit's creek.

--------------------

The Following is a heavily simplified example of what a Commlink, Smartlink, Cyberarm, and Wired Reflexes network, interfacing through a DNI would look like.

Physical Connections: Comlink --> DNI, Smartlink --> DNI, Cyberarm --> DNI, Wired Reflexes --> DNI, Human Brain --> DNI.

*Note that each cybernetic modification acts like an end user, while the DNI acts as a data packet switching device; The central hub, for each spoke of the network. The human brain is the device that allows connectivity -between- devices.

Logical Connections over Physical Connections
Commlink (Wireless Communication) Virtual Network --> DNI Logical Port 1
Commlink (Augmented Reality Filter) Virtual Network --> DNI Logical Port 2
Smartlink (Augmented Reality Filter) Virtual Network --> DNI Logical Port 3
Smartlink (Fine Motor Skill Adjustment) Virtual Network --> DNI Logical Port 4
Cybernetic Arm (Motor Controls) Virtual Network ---> DNI Logical Port 5
Human Input/Processing/Output --> DNI Logical Port 6
DNI Management Virtual Network ---> DNI Logical Port 7

**With the exception of the cyber-arm, each physical connection carries multiple logical isolated networks, and while there may be a single physical port, the data is still disected and seperated by the DNI interface.

Access-List All - Allow All communication to/from DNI Logical Port 6, Human Brain
Access-List Logical Port 1 - Firewall Software here, as this is link to ourside world.
Access-List Logical Port 2 - Allow Communication to/from Port 1&3, Deny all else.
Access-List Logical Port 3 - Allow Communication to/from Port 1&2, Deny all else.
Access-List Logical Port 4 - Allow Communication to/from Port 5, Deny all else
Access-List Logical Port 5 - Allow Communication to/from Port 4, Deny all else
Access-List Logical Port 6 - Allow communication to all ports, ignore implicit Deny
Access-List Logical Port 7 - Allow communication to/from Port 6

***Heavy simplified accesslist. In reality, they're long lists of IP addresses, and available ports, both physical, and logical - Notice that The Human Brain network can interface with all other networks, and so, all communication can pass -through- the human brain. Also note that while Augmentation Reality networks can discuss data together independant of the human brain, and Smartlink Fine Motor Skills and Cybernetic motion controls can talk to each other, those different network types are isolated.

At the end of the day, I suppose it'd be possible for 'backdoors' to be left open for sloppy second hand pieces of cyberware. And periodically, a DNI firmware package would need to be upgrade to include new patches for known compatibility issues, or port security problems. But really, the -vast, vast, vast, vast- majority of the time, it just simply isn't possible to 'hack' through an entire device, because each function should be assigned to it's own network of information.

Well, the ejecting clip and off setting the aiming point were directed at the weapon, not the implanted commlink or such.

As for the human brain being the router, I understand (or think I do, being barely computer literate ), but, the human brain is not doing/making/understanding every line of code, it is basilcally hitting pre-programmed buttons that get the device to do what it want's too.

Ex.: sending an video clip that you recorded from your cybereyes over your commlink to a buddy across room/town/continent/etc..
You do not think edit file XXX from frame 2341 to frame 6781, compress data, link to commlink, "dial" YYY address, send, confirm receipt, etc...
You think "Oh, I want to send this to Smokey, this will make his day", so, from "here" to "here", send to Smokey.
Your implanted hardware/software does all the work. If your Commlink is connected to you, any signal comming in has to be veried against "authorized" file, which is a computer file, hence "spoofable".

Oh, you can limit access by using various passcodes, say to shut down your cyberarm, causing the hacker to spend a few extra IPs to bypass each one.

That is why they say to have a good firewall on your implanted (or external) Commlink, to prevent this sort of thing.

Well, all installed cyberware is wired internally for communication, too.

Well, everything will be networked together in your body, as you need to be able to give it orders, be they concious orders or unconcious or motor reflex orders or combinations of the above.

I can see circumstances where you would want to lock your cyberleg in place, so you need to be able to tell it to do so, as well of it working by unconcious actions of walking, running, squatting, etc..

Components need to be able to talk to the router. If you can hack in thru a component, you can talk to the router, and possibly spoof it. But, as I said, would take more than one hack to get to your cyberarm. While he was doing that, the sammy would be doing his best to kill him, or punt him from his system.

i would say theres some basic things you cannot do... you cannot make a man hold a gun to his own head. that cyberlimb is like a real arm, as far as the brain is concerned. the most you could do is play with things inside the arm- open compartments, extend/retract blades, fire guns, and cycle the gyro-stabilizer. if its just a basic arm (no extra goodies) then it dont do much.

with eyes... you can probably do pop-ups like crazy, but not much else. Think of your brain-eye conection being like you sitting at a computer. the hacker can make popups, and screw with some settings... but not much else. but popups with a sim component can be very distracting... especialy gay troll S&M porn. so you cant see and you getting some very disturbing sim all of a sudden... effective enough. maybe make your oponent waste an action closing it.. or more if it a virus that keep opening new popups.

cyberware is not just some machine... its a part of he body, and as such responds only to input from the brain for many functions. you cannot hack the brain, the best you can do is send inputs to a person... which can get diferent results. the best you can do is to hack those parts which do respond to outside control- things that say 'yes the commlink can tell me what to do'. things like the image link in the eyes, the commlinks sim module, and various other senseware inputs.

..only if those aren't loaded into RAM.

That really depends on the exploit - you indeed could install a backdoor, and go from there.

That's exactly where this thread was heading to - there are rules for a reason.

So, you can load up your cyberlimb with IC and anti-hack Agents? Can you install a Firewall on a cyberlimb? Firewall 6 is only 3000 so I don't see many people having a problem with it. IC and Agents might send you back some though.

Yes, that's the whole idea of cyberware having a device rating...

A cyberlimb doesn't need a firewall. It isn't connected to anything outside of it's own iternal network path to the brain.

A firewall would be used for a device that accepts ouside input.

I have to admit that I have lost track of this discussion some while back. I think it was when someone said that the human brain is a router. I just wanted to point out that on Page 204 under "Other Hacker Tricks" the books specifically says a hacker can turn a street sam's own cyberarm against him. The black box on 224 also says that cyberlimbs are hackable.

I don't know why cyberlimbs and other items of personal equipment that are not commlinks would be on the network. My personal interpretation is that the rules were written by two people. One person wanted hacking to be like Ghost in the Shell, and wrote the rules in such a way that hackers can do things like take control of someone else's eyes. Another guy wrote the rules thinking that he did not want to be choked to death by his own cyberarm so he made it extremely easy and practical to take all of that crap off of the network. Really, you can only have it one way.

In which case, the device has no wireless or wired connection at all... that's the precedent.

And the point is that connections in SR4 rules are established between devices, not functions.

No, just connections.
In fact, the rules treat clusters the same way as single interfaces.

So you are saying that in 2070, technology has advanced to the point where it emulates the 1970s?

Please provide an example.

Take the smartgun - it is one device, yet it features a rangefinder and a camera.

Those are single devices themselves, unless installed in a greater sensor-package, at which point they are one device combined.