Does anyone else find it unfortunate how tough it is to create a human without cyber or magic who is above average in most stats? Since "4" is considered above average, you can put all your physical stats there, but limit your mental attributes to all 3. It's not a huge deal, but peculiar in that a starting human could hardly be made into a potential all-american football recruit while still expecting to get a 4 point gpa while being at least acceptable to look at (charisma) and not a complete pushover (willpower). That 200 points really hurts if you just want to be a (exceptional) normal human.
Just my thoughts, anyone else find it kinda strange that it's easier point wise to make a very smart ork who could play pro sports than a human? (barring cyber or magic)
Full Version: Humans and Stat Limits
It's just mechanics for making a shadowrunner PC. NPCs don't follow the same rules.
The same holds true for the other races if you judge them by the standards of their own kind. If you judge them by human standards, then yeah, that's what happens when the only mechanical penalties for playing a metahuman are lower attribute caps.
Humans have more points to play with by virtue of being completely free though, so s'all good.
Humans have more points to play with by virtue of being completely free though, so s'all good.
Yeah, I agree the mechanics work out, and NPCs can of course do whatever they want. It's just kinda painful to have to go to either magic or cyber to make a human who is just above average across the board instead of generally average overall. Human shadowrunners should be able to be semi-exceptional without having zero essense or being a "dime-a-dozen" phys ad! 
Those extra points from humans being free don't really help when 200 is the max you can put into stats, and even maxing out you average 3.5 per stat.
Those extra points from humans being free don't really help when 200 is the max you can put into stats, and even maxing out you average 3.5 per stat.
I was under the impression that the average stat was a 2. If you've got 3s and 4s in everything, while you're not exactly Master Keaton, you're certainly a cut above the rest, aren't you?
Nah, according to the book 2 is "underdeveloped" and 3 is "typical."
The book lists the average attribute as 3, but the average attribute in SR3 was also 3 and you're supposed to multiply attributes by 2/3 when converting, so I have no idea what's up with that.
Well, technically if you look at the actual NPC data the average attribute is closer to 2.5. At least, most of the "common" NPCs have attributes evenly distributed between 2 and 3.
This makes sense if you think of the "normal" max attribute as 5, with the exception that you can choose to pay extra to have one 6 at chargen. That would make the "normal" range 1-5, with 2.5 smack in the middle.
This makes sense if you think of the "normal" max attribute as 5, with the exception that you can choose to pay extra to have one 6 at chargen. That would make the "normal" range 1-5, with 2.5 smack in the middle.
Start with 1 in everything. Add 3 to all, for 180 points.
4/4/4/4/4/4
Add 1 to two more.
4/4/4/4/5/5
That's fairly above average, to me....
4/4/4/4/4/4
Add 1 to two more.
4/4/4/4/5/5
That's fairly above average, to me....
there are 8 stats, not 6.
body, agility, reaction, strength, charisma, intition, logic, and willpower.
8*3= 24. 240 pts to get all 8 stats at 4. possible in a game of 480+ BP
body, agility, reaction, strength, charisma, intition, logic, and willpower.
8*3= 24. 240 pts to get all 8 stats at 4. possible in a game of 480+ BP
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| Start with 1 in everything. Add 3 to all, for 180 points. 4/4/4/4/4/4 Add 1 to two more. 4/4/4/4/5/5 That's fairly above average, to me.... |
But here you have 6 attribute and not 8
Anyway, the average is 3.5 not 2.5
I don't think it's really broken... It's good to play because you can have a great character without real weakness (4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3) or a character with higher attribute somewhere but with a weakness elsewhere (and it's even not an obligation, you can have two attribute at 5 and six at 3) so it's pretty good as a game mechanics. After it is said, NPC simply doesn't follow PC creation rules.
And if you want a human ready to do some sport at a high level without cyber or magic then you can state something like :
C: 4
R: 4
A: 5
S: 4
C: 3
L: 2
I: 3
W: 3
It's a good base. Then a great player will have a great athletics and sports skills. In fact he generally have only one or two attribute with a particular high level. And generally not after many years of practice.
And think that if you allow a character to spend more, then you expose your game to the risk that attribute become far more important than skills. (And I dislike the karma cost for improve attribute...)
- Daegann -
Heh, boy do I wish there were only 6 stats, but yeah 8 makes it tougher like Teulish points out . So yeah, basically you are left with:
4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
nothing terrible, but there are better student athletes I'm watching on television right now than that.
Edit: Good analysis D
. So yeah, basically you are left with:4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
nothing terrible, but there are better student athletes I'm watching on television right now than that.
Edit: Good analysis D
If you had starting attributes closer to racial maxes then high karma street sams would be even greater skill whores. As it is, they'll want to spend their karma boosting reaction/agility/body and combat skills before they branch out into becoming master hackers as part of their midlife crisis.
also, i don't see a problem with assuming that people who are incredible athletes have probably earned and spent some karma on their attributes.
furthermore, i would argue that maintaining a good GPA could as easily be a function of skills as anything else...
furthermore, i would argue that maintaining a good GPA could as easily be a function of skills as anything else...
Sure, but that's not the "street" level of start that the game designers want to be the default. In SR4, those following the basic rules are not that exceptional. Most All American football players with Rhodes Scholarships, after all, don't run the shadows. They certainly can, but that's not the default assumption of the game, which is that starting runners are slightly better than average schlubs who have a bit of an edge in their skill development, magical ability, or past access and willingness to use cyberware or other restricted gear.
At the creation you can have a powerful athlete... Take mmh a quaterback for example
Body : 3
Reaction : 4
Agility : 5
strength : 4
Charism : 3
Logic : 3
Intuition : 4
Willpower : 3
Athletic skill group : 4
Throwing weapon (lobbed/ball) : 6(+2)
With that he is a pretty good quaterback... And with no attribute under 3... So it's even possible to make him better at sports if you reduce logic for example. Having 2 in an attribute doesn't mean you are abnormal, you just have a weakness yes but so many people have one (or even more) and live with it... ^^ Having 2 in logic for example doesn't mean you are a complete idiot (and you can still have pretty good knowledge skills) and people doesn't necessary see your weakness in the second they see you. ^^
- Daegann -
Body : 3
Reaction : 4
Agility : 5
strength : 4
Charism : 3
Logic : 3
Intuition : 4
Willpower : 3
Athletic skill group : 4
Throwing weapon (lobbed/ball) : 6(+2)
With that he is a pretty good quaterback... And with no attribute under 3... So it's even possible to make him better at sports if you reduce logic for example. Having 2 in an attribute doesn't mean you are abnormal, you just have a weakness yes but so many people have one (or even more) and live with it... ^^ Having 2 in logic for example doesn't mean you are a complete idiot (and you can still have pretty good knowledge skills) and people doesn't necessary see your weakness in the second they see you. ^^
- Daegann -
Hmm, Daegann, unless my math is off, you have 210 BP spent on attributes.
^^;;
That's true... Then leave a point in reac or intuition. The important is that he's still a great athlete.
- Daegann -
That's true... Then leave a point in reac or intuition. The important is that he's still a great athlete.
- Daegann -
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